Odd rumors about safe storage

[Len-2A Training]

got it

So While transporting in a car, not under my direct control (restricted to sporting). The firearm and ammo needs to be seperate? Does the Ammo also need to be locked up? Not sure if I can fit multiple lock boxes in my efficient massachusetts low emissions automobile...

The ammo does not have to be separate (as long as gun is unloaded) if you have any LTC and are traveling in MA.

Your firearm cannot be LOADED if you're restricted or transporting under FOPA. However, keeping them in the same locked case/container/trunk is fine.

Not quite correct. FOPA REQUIRES that ammo be cased separately. But FOPA only applies when driving from State A where you have a legal right to have the guns/ammo to State B where you also have a legal right to have the guns/ammo . . . while traversing states that don't allow you to possess firearms/ammo in the car. I do not recall if FOPA requires you to actually possess a permit from State A and State B, so check that if applicable.

 

[vellnueve]

Stand corrected on FOPA.

In response to the next question, ammo in the house must be locked up away from unauthorized persons. In the car I believe you simply need to lock the car. Otherwise, we'd all be breaking the law when we walk out of Dick's with our bags of ammo.

 

[peterpressure]

I must have completely missed this before, I did not realize ammo needed to be locked up in your home. Thanks for the info...

So in the Home, ammo and firearms need to be locked and in the car, just firearms, if your not leaving the state...

Can be locked and loaded in the home, but not in the car...

man i think i need to make myself a cheat sheet!!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yes the locked ammo BS comes from the MA Fire Marshal's Office, in their Regs (CMR) and only is required in a house/condo/apartment/etc. not a car.

 

[Pilgrim]

Yes the locked ammo BS comes from the MA Fire Marshal's Office,

Ah yes, unlocked ammo presents a much greater fire danger than locked ammo.

 

[Chris]

Ah yes, unlocked ammo presents a much greater fire danger than locked ammo.

Yup. Just think of that heavy metal case filled with thousands of rounds of ammo, extra powder and 1000 primers all because the shooter was told to "lock it up".

I'm sure the local FD would LOVE to find that box in the middle of a blaze.

When you secure your ammo, make sure it is NOT a heavy sealed container.

 

[JonJ]

Yes the locked ammo BS comes from the MA Fire Marshal's Office, in their Regs (CMR) and only is required in a house/condo/apartment/etc. not a car.

But the Fire Marshal's BS only applies when the quantity stored is above what is set forth in 527 CMR 13.04, correct?

 

[dwarven1]

When you secure your ammo, make sure it is NOT a heavy sealed container.

Chris, after putting 1000 rounds of .45 ACP into ANY container, it's no longer "light".

 

[doobie]

Chris, after putting 1000 rounds of .45 ACP into ANY container, it's no longer "light".

Well duh! You are supposed to *shoot* them, not store them!

 

[digitech]

527 CMR 13.04

13.04: Licenses, Registrations, Permits and Certificates
(1) Exemption: License, Registration, or Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, Registration, and Permit and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure:
(a) Small Arms Ammunition
1. Not more than 10,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition.
2. Not more than 10,000 rounds of center fire ammunition.
3. Not more than 5,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition.
(b) Small Arms Ammunition Primers
1. Not more than 1,000 caps or other small arms primers.
(c) Smokeless Propellants
1. Not more than 16 pounds.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store Smokeless Propellants.
3. Not more than two pounds of such propellant shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access.
(d) Black Powder
1. Not more than two pounds.
2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store black powder.
(e) Exempt quantities of small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder shall be stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored in a locked cabinet, closet or box when not in use.
(f) Special industrial explosive devices when in quantities of less than 50 pounds net weight of explosives.

 

[digitech]

But if you read 527 CMR 13.04 (2) Storage by permit:

it does not have that storage requirement in there.

527 CMR 13

 

[doobie]

We can have x0,000 rounds or ammo but only 1,000 primers based on the law...

When does a primer turn into "ammo"? If I have empty brass that I've primed which one does it count toward primers or rounds?

 

[dwarven1]

When some idiot wants to charge you with improper storage, I guess.

 

[doobie]

When some idiot wants to charge you with improper storage, I guess.

*grin* I guess then I should talk to the MFD about getting a permit to store more.

 

[digitech]

*grin* I guess then I should talk to the MFD about getting a permit to store more.

That is what i did here in Carver. No charge! Bring a copy of the CMR with you because they probably won't know what you are talking about.

 

[dwarven1]

Doobie, they'll look at you funny when you do. I talked to a captain on the FD a few months back, and he says that no one bothers with permits. And this captain was also a shooter; he shoots at Riverside.

 

[doobie]

Doobie, they'll look at you funny when you do. I talked to a captain on the FD a few months back, and he says that no one bothers with permits. And this captain was also a shooter; he shoots at Riverside.

If the AG has any say it in... I think I want the permit...

 

[JonJ]

So the way I see it, there is no way I can ever be in compliance because I have a ton of ammo not "in original containers".
My firearm kept at the ready, not in the safe but stored nearby with a lock on it is loaded. The ammo is not locked.
In reading the enforcement of this CMR, the Fire Marshal, Fire Chief etc. can enter your home for an inspection.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I've needed (and had) a permit for many, many years. Surprised to learn from the fire chief that there are only 5 active permits in my town . . . especially since I know a lot more than 5 shooters who roll their own here.

Your homeowners insurance company will take the most interest in your permit status in case they are covering any losses. Any little excuse to deny payment will work in their favor.

 

[doobie]

Can one store primers locked in a container in a shed am I safe? Can I store 1000 and 1000? Or does a shed that's detached have some other amount you can store in it? Or would having it in a detached building be illegal?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Limits are NOT increased by using "out buildings". I already asked my fire chief about that.

Once a case is primed, however, it is no longer a primer!

 

[doobie]

Limits are NOT increased by using "out buildings". I already asked my fire chief about that.

Once a case is primed, however, it is no longer a primer!

Looks like I have a lot of priming to do tonight!

 

[Prepper]

When you secure your ammo, make sure it is NOT a heavy sealed container.

If I actually tried doing that suggestion, I'd have dozens of tiny containers all over the floor, each with a big padlock on it. In addition to being ridiculous, it'd also be a tripping hazard. A burglar breaking into my house might trip over one of them and bash his eyeball on the corner of another container and then sue me.

 

[KMaurer]

If I actually tried doing that suggestion, I'd have dozens of tiny containers all over the floor, each with a big padlock on it. In addition to being ridiculous, it'd also be a tripping hazard. A burglar breaking into my house might trip over one of them and bash his eyeball on the corner of another container and then sue me.

Go back and read it again. You can use a single large container, as long as it's not sealed. When the container is sealed, the gas pressure from ammunition that cooks off during a fire is contained. If the pressure gets too high, as it might in a large sealed container, then you've got a bomb. If the gas can escape, then there's no problem.

Ken

 

[dwarven1]

When the container is sealed, the gas pressure from ammunition that cooks off during a fire is contained. If the pressure gets too high, as it might in a large sealed container, then you've got a bomb. If the gas can escape, then there's no problem.

So we should drill a hole or two in our ammo cans?

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

So we should drill a hole or two in our ammo cans?

IIRC, GI ammo cans are designed to vent in case of a fire. I think that the rubber seal would melt, giving the gas someplace to go.

 

[Prepper]

Oh I see. My large containers are metal tool boxes; they don't look very "sealed" to me (no gasket). I presume they'd vent OK if something cooked off.

 

[dwarven1]

IIRC, GI ammo cans are designed to vent in case of a fire. I think that the rubber seal would melt, giving the gas someplace to go.

Ah. OK, that makes me feel better.

 

[n1heu]

NFPA regs:

10-3 SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS. 10-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 LB (11.3kg), in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation, may be transported in a private vehicle.

10-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb (11.3kg) but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), transported in a private vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood walls of at least 1-inc. (25.4-mm) nominal thickness.

10-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants in a private vehicle is prohibited.

10-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants in quantities not exceeding 100 lb. (45.4kg) are classified for transportation purposes as flammable solids when packaged according to U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations. (Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, Park 173.197a), and shall be transported accordingly.

10-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg) or not packaged in accordance with the regulations cited in 10-3.4 shall be transported according to the U. S. Department of Transportation regulations for Class B propellant explosives.

10-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers specified by U. S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations.

10-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) may be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), may be stored in residences if kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls or at least 1-inc. (25.4-mm) nominal thickness.

10-3.8 Not more than 20 lb (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1-lb (0.45-kg) maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments.

10-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants should be stored as follows:

(a) Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of at least 1-in (25.4-mm) thickness.

(b) Quantities exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), but not exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), shall be stored in non portable storage cabinets having walls of at least 1-in (25.4-mm)thickness. Not more than 400 lb (181 kg) may be stored in any one cabinet and cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.

(c) Quantities exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), but not exceeding 5,000 lb (2268 kg), may be stored in a building if the following requirements are met:

1. The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel.
2. Smokeless propellant shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wood walls at least 1 inc. (25.4 mm) thick and having shelves with no more than 3 ft (0.92 m) separation between shelves.
3. No more than 400 lb (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet.
4. Cabinets shall be located against walls of the storage room or warehouse with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets.
5. Separation between cabinets may be reduced to 250 ft (6.1m) if barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft (3m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4-inc. (6.4-mm) boiler plate, 2-in. (51-mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block.
6. Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft (7.63mm) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.
7. The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed accordingly to NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems..

(d) Smokeless propellants not stored according to (a), (b) and (c) above shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed and located according to Chapter 6.

Reprinted with permission from NFPA495-85, Standard for the Manufacture, Transportation, Storage and Use of Explosive Materials, (c) 1985, National Fire Protection Association, Quincy, MA 02269. This reprinted material is not the complete and official position of the NFPA on the referenced subject, which is represented by the Standard in its entirety.

 

[peterpressure]

I love safe storage rumors...

From the latest (2003) NRA guide to firearms laws in Massachusetts.
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/MASL.pdf
3rd page 4th paragraph...

"It is unlawful for any person licensed to carry a handgun to leave the firearm in a vehicle unattended."

Of course if the firearm is loaded this is true, but what if it is unloaded and locked in your trunk?