Non-Standard licensing requirements -> Non-Statutory licensing requirements

[SSShooter]

In reality, whats the big deal with asking someone to maintain active status at a local gun range?

Besides "shall not be infringed"? How about it costs a not-insignificant amount of money which could be prohibitive to some applicants. If you want a gun for protection and don't plan to use it regularly for target shooting or whatever, wtf should you be required to maintain a club membership??

How about "What's the big deal with issuing the license since I've kept my nose clean for my whole life?"

 

[Asaltweapon]

In reality, whats the big deal with asking someone to maintain active status at a local gun range?

Or for that matter the reference letters?

Like I was writing, For non res Maine it's a six page deal and they call your issuing town (I know this) and you sign a form allowing them a mental health check along with a bunch of other bs.
I've got nothing to hide so what do I care?

I've got over 3 million acres of nothing at my back door and I'm still joining a club "up north'. It's an eerie feeling hearing your shots take off to who knows where. No houses nearby but camps all over and with the people hiking and trekking around I prefer not to be the one.

 

[terraformer]

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30720

Thanks. Lots of valuable info there. I updated the OP with it. Even stuff I forgot about when I was in Watertown. Scrivener was compiling that for a lawsuit and didn't share what wasn't posted, and didn't compile the list in the OP. Hopefully this thread won't get modded into oblivion as a dupe given I am around to update it with new info.

 

[NRA4Life]

N. Andover and Andover are known for asking for physicians letters....

N.Andover still does.

 

[vicpinto]

Fall river required of me:

1) Three letters of reference
2) Proof of membership in a gun club
3) Letter to CLEO explaining why I needed/wanted to exercise my God Given Right.

That and it took almost 90 days.

 

[MXD]

Saugus didn't require anything listed here except a bill with my address on it. To me that's not even worth listing in the OP. Every town issues their own licenses so they just want to be sure you are a resident. I have no other experience in other towns but based on what I read hear, Saugus is the closest thing to Texas in this state.


That actually might make a good point.

Saugus=observes the 2A=can't remember the last violent crime here and I have been living here 30+years

Fitchburg=observes the 2A to a lesser degree=rampant gun violence

A correlation at best but its an interesting thought.

 

[terraformer]

Saugus didn't require anything listed here except a bill with my address on it. To me that's not even worth listing in the OP. Every town issues their own licenses so they just want to be sure you are a resident. I have no other experience in other towns but based on what I read hear, Saugus is the closest thing to Texas in this state.


That actually might make a good point.

Saugus=observes the 2A=can't remember the last violent crime here and I have been living here 30+years

Fitchburg=observes the 2A to a lesser degree=rampant gun violence

A correlation at best but its an interesting thought.

I agree that proof of residency is not a big deal per se, but it is non-standard in that it is not called for in law. Obviously a doctors note is far more egregious, but it is good to compile it all and look at in total.

 

[drgrant]

Fitchburg=observes the 2A to a lesser degree=rampant gun violence

A correlation at best but its an interesting thought.

It's a poor correlation at best. Fitchburg was de-facto "green" until this new
chief came along, and it remains to be seen how red it will get.

Fitchburg also had a lot of crime problems long before noises were even being made about changing the policy.

I can agree that it is sort of a bellweather- with a handful of exceptions, most of the "red" towns are places you don't want to be anyways WRT
crime.

I don't think, however, that as a whole gun ownership influences violent crime prevention in MA. There are so few licensed gun owners in MA relative to the whole population that we're a drop in the bucket. The numbers are even worse when you consider the fact that most LTC-A holders probably don't even carry on a regular basis. The odds are definitely against a criminal encountering an armed citizen in MA. I'd bet that the "guns carried per capita" rate of NH or ME is double what it is here, but even that doubling isn't much. Even when you look at places like FL, which have some of the most reasonable laws, the number of CCWs in the whole population is still relatively small. (Although, the per capita "household" gun ownership numbers, are WAY higher! )

-Mike

 

[DustinK]

I didn't even think twice about it when asked but I was also asked for 2 pieces of mail w/ my address on them to confirm residency in Marblehead. Did not have to be utility bills or anything.

 

[Amicus]

I have recently started running into anecdotes about several towns stating that "suitability" is linked to the type of qualifying training course: if you take "Basic Pistol," you may get an unrestricted Class "A"; if "Home Firearms Safety," then you can only acquire a "restricted" license.

Anyone else hear about this?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I have recently started running into anecdotes about several towns stating that "suitability" is linked to the type of qualifying training course: if you take "Basic Pistol," you may get an unrestricted Class "A"; if "Home Firearms Safety," then you can only acquire a "restricted" license.

Anyone else hear about this?

Yup. I've heard that but I can't remember which town did it. In addition, this town would give only an FID for people that took the Hunter Safety Course.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Amicus, the law ("suitability") allows the towns to throw whatever obstacles they want in the way of the applicant.

There are instances of people with certs >6 months old being told "so sad, too bad" take the course again, etc.

Until the law changes to remove "suitability" from the equation and making it "shall issue", each town will do as it pleases . . . with many abusing the privilege of discretion. Having sat thru many hearings on Bacon Hill where "suitability" and abuse of discretion have been raised, I can tell you that the legistraitors on the Public Safety Committee bow to the MCOPA every time and thus refuse to seriously consider removing discretion from the equation.

 

[Becka]

Waltham requires a letter to the Chief if requesting ALP (useless as you'll never get one, no matter what someone on here says - I've had numerous LEOs from Waltham tell me so)
Also requires 3 letters of reference

Bolton, a green town, also requires letters and a signed disclosure of deadly force...but you get an ALP. I wouldn't mind jumping through the hoops if I got an ALP (go ahead and say you shouldn't have to, which is true - but being able to carry would be worth it to me).

 

[gerrycaruso]

I was a Watertown employee for 31 years and until I moved, was requires to maintain a club membership. Westford requires a written exam and I don't object to that. If you can't pass this easy test, you shouldn't be carrying a gun. Remember that you're in a may issue state.

 

[GSG]

In reality, whats the big deal with asking someone to maintain active status at a local gun range?

Or for that matter the reference letters?

Am I hearing the liberty-loving Clinotus correctly?

Just kidding, I think I understand what you're saying.

I have recently started running into anecdotes about several towns stating that "suitability" is linked to the type of qualifying training course: if you take "Basic Pistol," you may get an unrestricted Class "A"; if "Home Firearms Safety," then you can only acquire a "restricted" license.

Anyone else hear about this?

Sort of. When Scrivener posted the thread that asked about illegal licensing practices, I PM'ed him a scanned image of the "cover sheet" that the Winchendon Police Department attached to their gun license applications.

Winchendon is a very red town BTW (I know of at least two LEO's who live in Winchendon with a restricted LTC), but this sheet said something along the lines of "unless you show need, LTC will be Target and Hunting, or Employment with a letter from your employer." Since even cops can't show need, you're not getting an unrestricted LTC in Winchendon, but the last line on the cover sheet said something like "applicants applying for an unrestricted LTC must have taken a certified concealed carry course." I don't know what they meant by "certified," but I'm assuming that they left that open to interpretation.

I'm no longer in Mass., so I can't get to the local PD to get that form again (I deleted the scanned file), but if someone's interested in seeing that, anyone can walk in and ask for the application, the cover sheet is stapled right to it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

"applicants applying for an unrestricted LTC must have taken a certified concealed carry course." I don't know what they meant by "certified," but I'm assuming that they left that open to interpretation.

Like you, I'm not aware of ANY "concealed carry" course that is "certified" by CMR as adequate to get any firearms license. NRA Basic Pistol does NOT cover "concealed carry" and I doubt that any NRA courses cover that type of material.

I'm all for every gun owner being a gun club member (practice, practice, practice) UNLESS they have adequate land that they can practice on otherwise. HOWEVER, I am not for any gov't mandate that one "must" be a member of a gun club in order to get/keep any permit.

 

[SKS Ray]

New Bedford doesn't seem that bad after reading some of these.

2 people listed as references, a safety course certificate, and a letter to the chief why you want a license to carry.

Worst part of my renewal was the wait for my appointment. They wouldn't let me come in until a month before my LTC was due to expire. Of course my new LTC was late and I received it a week after my original expired.

 

[flintoid]

Don't forget the Boston range test at Moon Island. It's the best of the worst.

but who wouldn't love to fire off 30 rounds for a requirement?

Incredibly, Boston dropped the requirement of being an active member at a gun club. They also don't ask for references anymore, either.

unfortunately, unrestricted is still only reserved for those 'who qualify.' I'm just glad they're taking steps in the right direction!

And it literally takes 30 dates for you to receive your LTC. They've got some things right, I guess

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Like you, I'm not aware of ANY "concealed carry" course that is "certified" by CMR as adequate to get any firearms license.

Sig Arms Concealed Carry Pistol Course, LTC-012 is one

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopsterminal&L=2&L0=Home&L1=Firearms+Registration+%26+Laws&sid=Eeops&b=terminalcontent&f=msp_firearms_msp_firearms_approved_basic_firearms_safety_courses&csid=Eeops

 

[Len-2A Training]

Sig Arms Concealed Carry Pistol Course, LTC-012 is one

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopsterminal&L=2&L0=Home&L1=Firearms+Registration+%26+Laws&sid=Eeops&b=terminalcontent&f=msp_firearms_msp_firearms_approved_basic_firearms_safety_courses&csid=Eeops

Thanks Rob. That's why I was careful in my wording.

I wasn't aware of any such courses, but don't know what the Sig or S&W approved courses teach.

 

[BigAce74]

When I applied in Springfield in July I noticed that on the standard MA application they crossed out "optional" next to the space for your Social Security Number so if you print it out from home, make sure you put your ssn on it. They also told me that your references cannot be parents (wasn't a big deal to me) and that I need to disclose that I'm ccw if pulled over.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Thanks Rob. That's why I was careful in my wording.

Which is why you can always have a correct answer to "how do you spell ......."

 

[terraformer]

When I applied in Springfield in July I noticed that on the standard MA application they crossed out "optional" next to the space for your Social Security Number so if you print it out from home, make sure you put your ssn on it. They also told me that your references cannot be parents (wasn't a big deal to me) and that I need to disclose that I'm ccw if pulled over.

Oh, this is why I started this thread to begin with. There are gold in them thar' hills. They modified an official state document? Unfortunately if they do it in advance, it likely is not a big deal as MA doubtfully has a PRA but that is still balls.

 

[terraformer]

They also told me that your references cannot be parents (wasn't a big deal to me)

This is actually a very big deal for people who have just moved into the state. I have heard about a woman who was required to get a reference letter from her brand new boss (who was a huge anti) because the PD refused to take letters from out of state. This was back years ago that I heard this and I wish I remembered more but I can't imagine starting a new job and having to ask for this from a boss who has yet to make any sort of character judgement on you or your skills. This is a very big deal for some.

 

[BigAce74]

This is actually a very big deal for people who have just moved into the state. I have heard about a woman who was required to get a reference letter from her brand new boss (who was a huge anti) because the PD refused to take letters from out of state. This was back years ago that I heard this and I wish I remembered more but I can't imagine starting a new job and having to ask for this from a boss who has yet to make any sort of character judgement on you or your skills. This is a very big deal for some.

So people from another state can't vouch for your good character? Unreal>

 

[ochmude]

This is actually a very big deal for people who have just moved into the state. I have heard about a woman who was required to get a reference letter from her brand new boss (who was a huge anti) because the PD refused to take letters from out of state. This was back years ago that I heard this and I wish I remembered more but I can't imagine starting a new job and having to ask for this from a boss who has yet to make any sort of character judgement on you or your skills. This is a very big deal for some.

Definitely a big deal. If Holyoke PD required crap like that I wouldn't have been able to get my LTC at all. I moved to MA, enlisted, and shipped out for active duty all within the span of a few months. Only people I knew in the whole state at the time were my parents and my recruiter.

 

[terraformer]

So people from another state can't vouch for your good character? Unreal>

Yeah. I want to say it was andover or N. andover but it has been too long. Your post reminded me of it. It is definitely NE MA though.

 

[BigAce74]

Definitely a big deal. If Holyoke PD required crap like that I wouldn't have been able to get my LTC at all. I moved to MA, enlisted, and shipped out for active duty all within the span of a few months. Only people I knew in the whole state at the time were my parents and my recruiter.

I hope my post didn't infer that I didn't think it was a big deal to others. I only meant it in my case as I have a few non-related people that I was able to use as references so not using parents wasn't personally an issue. I agree that it can definately be a big deal to other people. I'm glad it didn't prevent you from getting your LTC.

 

[ochmude]

I hope my post didn't infer that I didn't think it was a big deal to others. I only meant it in my case as I have a few non-related people that I was able to use as references so not using parents wasn't personally an issue. I agree that it can definately be a big deal to other people. I'm glad it didn't prevent you from getting your LTC.

Oh no, not at all. I know that wasn't your intention. I was just illustrating a real example of how seemingly minor requirements for some can completely screw over others. No worries!

 

[Len-2A Training]

When I applied in Springfield in July I noticed that on the standard MA application they crossed out "optional" next to the space for your Social Security Number so if you print it out from home, make sure you put your ssn on it.

Direct violation of Fed Law!! 5 USC 552a, The Right to Privacy Act of 1974.

The actual form itself is a violation for not having the mandatory 4 sentences wrt SSN any way. Both this law and Case Law (don't have the cite handy, JD will be along shortly ) state clearly that refusal to provide SSN can NOT be used to deny benefits. I believe that it was a Fed Case, so I seriously doubt that MA would uphold the same ruling as MA law supersedes (in reality) any Fed Law including the Constitution (my Chief even told me so once)!

Before the 1998 law, the initial application required a letter from your employer. I had tons of fun with that one (nobody in management wanted to touch it, finally an asst mgr who had shot competition rifle in the Military agreed to write it) as I was an engineer at Stone & Webster Engineering at that time. Luckily our Chief (at that time) waived it for my Wife a few years later . . . she was a school teacher!