Newbie question: OK to chamber a round, drop magazine and readd round?

[VARCHAR2]

Absurd. I sincerely hope you misunderstood the SIG instructor; otherwise, you were taught nonsense.

Obviously the gun had to be drawn if it were to be used. Equally obviously, if you're one of those who carries a gun that is NOT in a ready state to be used, you would need to take the further step of racking the slide or - REALLY bad choice - cock the hammer.

Yet another reason NOT to carry on an empty chamber.

I suspect I either misunderstood or am failing to articulate what he was saying. He was not advocating in any way that a handgun should be carried in a non-ready state. I think he was just trying to make an additional point why someone should NOT carry with an empty chamber. You know how we all see in the movies, first gun is drawn and pointed at BG in threatening manner, then some conversation, then the slide is racked (or hammer cocked). His point was, not only is that a bad idea, but if the BG ends up being shot, the self-defense may be slightly less defensible in court because the gun was not ready when it was drawn. No?

 

[VARCHAR2]

Premeditation does not hinge on just one act (carrying with a loaded chamber).

You really threw your money away if that is what you were taught.

No, that is not what was taught. The instructor was certainly encouraging us to make our guns ready before they are holstered. If anything I think he would argue that carrying with a loaded chamber is better for legal reasons too. I admit it was an odd point he was making, and I regret that I cannot better articulate it.

 

[George D]

Guys

that's what makes America so great we all have our own opinions but don't say mine are crap' I didn't and wont say yours are crap. If someone is coming at you with a knife guess what, even if you have one in the chamber your stabbed. They did this test at my club with a long time action shooter who could draw pretty quick and he lost to the knife. But one stab doesn't kill a man but one bullet does.

This why I carry with a bayonet mounted on my sidearm. Cover my bases.

 

[George D]

Oh lord.

Derek carries with 2 in the chamber

(Ohio style)

 

[Another_David]

I am under the impression that a justifiable homicide is slightly less defensible, in the legal realm, if the hammer is not already cocked when the firearm is drawn. It suggests that the weapon was first drawn, then some moment later, you decided lethal force was required and so you cocked the hammer. In other words, what were you doing drawing the weapon before you decided lethal force was required? Suggests premeditation, I guess. Anyway, this is just the impression I got, after a Sig Academy course, and it seemed to make sense. It could be this reasoning is more applicable to police departments, but I don't see how it couldn't also apply to civilians too.

Assuming they were teaching the Sig DA/SA platform they were probably talking about drawing and firing in double action mode. I recall from my Sig course they instructed us to NOT cock the hammer to make the first shot single action after drawing. Cocking the hammer is obviously an unnecessary step with the DA/SA platform.

Then someone asked, "well what if you had extra time? Could you draw, cock the hammer, line up your shot and make a great precision shot because it's easier to fire in SA?" And I believe the reply was something like, "well you're probably not in imminent danger if you have time to do all that". Then the student asked, "well lets say a loved one was in a hostage situation.." and then the instructor cut him off with a firm but polite, "that's beyond the scope of this course"

 

[drew]

Be careful with topping off the magazine and encerting into the gun with slide in battery(forward position), sometimes this can put a little more pressure against the slide and slow down the action of the slide. Have seen it happen before during an Instructor course. It may also put downward pressure on the magazine catch. Just my .02 though, and I'm sure you'll get alot of people who will disagree with me.... Your first question, was the way I would carry it, just don't top off the magazine again. You won't have time to rack the slide when a SHTF moment arrises. And what happens if you slip off the slide and dont get a round chambered. Seconds count my friend, seconds count.... If you want some proper training, send me a PM, and I'll be glad to give some free help...
~Drew

 

[strangenh]

Derek carries with 2 in the chamber

(Ohio style)

Heck, sometimes I carry with five in the chamber.

(J-frame style)

 

[VARCHAR2]

I am under the impression that a justifiable homicide is slightly less defensible, in the legal realm, if the hammer is not already cocked when the firearm is drawn. It suggests that the weapon was first drawn, then some moment later, you decided lethal force was required and so you cocked the hammer. In other words, what were you doing drawing the weapon before you decided lethal force was required? Suggests premeditation, I guess. Anyway, this is just the impression I got, after a Sig Academy course, and it seemed to make sense. It could be this reasoning is more applicable to police departments, but I don't see how it couldn't also apply to civilians too.

Yeah, thinking on this more and rereading what I wrote, my statement above does not make much sense and does not well capture what the instructor was iterating. My apologies to him and you. I think his main point was you shouldn't draw your handgun until lethal force is required (I agree with this, but perhaps debatable?), and if lethal force is required, the firearm should already be ready to deliver it (I agree with this). As opposed to: draw weapon because you might need to shoot a bad guy, then sometime later deciding that lethal force is required, readying the gun, and then firing. The later behavior possibly suggestive of premeditation as opposed to self defense as a last resort? Anyway, sorry to take this thread off topic. One of the things I most appreciate about this forum and threads like this is the opportunity for me to become more informed and less ignorant. So, thank you to the OP and to those who responded to my tangential and uninformed posting.

 

[drgrant]

Be careful with topping off the magazine and encerting into the gun with slide in battery(forward position), sometimes this can put a little more pressure against the slide and slow down the action of the slide. Have seen it happen before during an Instructor course.

This isn't a problem on most semis that I'm aware of. On Glocks if the mag springs aren't broken in, the mags can be a bitch to seat if they are fully loaded, but this is overcome by storing the mags fully loaded for awhile so the springs will take their initial set. Once this happens the mags become a lot easier to deal with.

-Mike

 

[GSG]

Very good.

I was thinking Mossad.

I can read minds.

Assuming they were teaching the Sig DA/SA platform they were probably talking about drawing and firing in double action mode. I recall from my Sig course they instructed us to NOT cock the hammer to make the first shot single action after drawing. Cocking the hammer is obviously an unnecessary step with the DA/SA platform.

Then someone asked, "well what if you had extra time? Could you draw, cock the hammer, line up your shot and make a great precision shot because it's easier to fire in SA?" And I believe the reply was something like, "well you're probably not in imminent danger if you have time to do all that". Then the student asked, "well lets say a loved one was in a hostage situation.." and then the instructor cut him off with a firm but polite, "that's beyond the scope of this course"

I think this stuff originates from cases where police departments have been successfully sued because an officer cocked their gun and then had an "AD" (more like an ND, considering that "keep your finger off the trigger" rule), often times injuring or killing someone. Ayoob wrote about a case where a cop cocked his gun like that, the suspect complied, and the cop put his pistol to the back of the guys head while cuffing him. As he closed the cuff with his non-shooting hand, he pulled the trigger with his other hand (something about kinetics and compensating), killing the criminal. There are other similar cases, so now many PD's that have DA/SA guns train their guys not to cock them, or to decock them after the threat is stopped.

IMHO most of this doesn't apply to the civilian LTC holder.

This isn't a problem on most semis that I'm aware of. On Glocks if the mag springs aren't broken in, the mags can be a bitch to seat if they are fully loaded, but this is overcome by storing the mags fully loaded for awhile so the springs will take their initial set. Once this happens the mags become a lot easier to deal with.

-Mike

I agree with Drew. I have Glock mags that I've put thousands of rounds through that are still tight like that, and are a pain to seat when fully loaded. That's why I don't carry +1, but as always, YMMV. If you're going to do it you should shoot it a lot like that to make sure that there's no issues.

 

[drgrant]

I agree with Drew. I have Glock mags that I've put thousands of rounds through that are still tight like that, and are a pain to seat when fully loaded. That's why I don't carry +1, but as always, YMMV. If you're going to do it you should shoot it a lot like that to make sure that there's no issues.

Depends on the gun. I'm still not doing it on my G30SF because the mags are really tight on that one. My G19 I do +1 all the time though, never a problem.

-Mike

 

[GSG]

Depends on the gun. I'm still not doing it on my G30SF because the mags are really tight on that one. My G19 I do +1 all the time though, never a problem.

-Mike

The tight ones I have are in .357 SIG. I think there's more play with smaller calibers and mag springs, but with the bigger ones there's less room for error. I've heard of more than a few G30 mags that won't take the last round, to the point where some people recommend filing down the follower.

But whatever works, as usual.

 

[M1911]

For what it's worth .................from a safety aspect a 1911 should never be holstered with a round in the chamber(cocked and locked). REASON: safety's can fail, or can be accidentally switched off with out knowing, while attempting to pull said gun from holster user may inadvertantly put finger on trigger and tug gun from holster hence shooting the wrong target. It doesn't take more than a second to rack a round into the chamber when and only when needed. A Sig on the other hand has a decocker and can be carried in a little safer condition (but that depends on the user) Also do rotate the round you chamber so the bullet doesn't get pushed into the case causing extreme pressures when fired.

Oh. My. God. You must be kidding me.

that's what makes America so great we all have our own opinions but don't say mine are crap' I didn't and wont say yours are crap. If someone is coming at you with a knife guess what, even if you have one in the chamber your stabbed. They did this test at my club with a long time action shooter who could draw pretty quick and he lost to the knife. But one stab doesn't kill a man but one bullet does.

Many of us have been carrying 1911s cocked-and-locked for many years without any mishap. My safety hasn't been wiped off inadvertently. In fact, at least one poster here who I respect a great deal routinely carried his 1911 in condition 0 (chamber full, hammer cocked, safety off). While a 1911 has a short, light trigger pull, so does a Glock, so by your logic, carrying a Glock with a round in the chamber is even more dangerous than carrying a 1911 with a round in the chamber. More importantly, the original poster is carrying a Sig 226, so cocked-and-locked is not an option for him.

If you ever need to draw your gun in a defensive situation, you need it real bad and you need right now. While you can chamber a round quickly if you have two hands free, you may not have two hands free. Your support hand might be busy fending off the perp, pushing your spouse to safety, holding your child's hand, etc. There are techniques to chamber a round with one hand, but learning to do so quickly takes far, far more training than learning to safely draw with your finger off the trigger. There are significant disadvantages to carrying condition 3, and for someone to use their instructor credential to push condition 3 without discussing its disadvantages is unconscionable.

The "test" they did at your club was the Tueller drill. As for "one bullet" killing while one stab wound won't, that is more complete crap. Here in the US, 80% of people shot with a handgun survive. A shot or a stab wound might be fatal or survivable.

There are reasonable arguments for and against each condition of carry. You can post a reasonable discussion of the advantages and disadvantages. But for you to say that "from a safety aspect a 1911 should never be holstered with a round in the chamber(cocked and locked)" is just incredible. I have seldom heard such an ignorant statement about firearms.

 

[fprintf]

Ok, you guys had me really worried that I might have really been doing something risky with the rechambered ammunition. I did swap it out and now have only a fresh, first time chambered round and virgin rounds in the magazine. What to do with the ones that have been chambered up to a dozen times? Before posting this question I thought I would take some measurements. All are Winchester White Box JHP.

Unloaded JHP overall length:
28.36mm
28.30mm
28.30mm
28.33mm
28.28mm

Loaded JHP (up to 12 times is my guess since I was breaking in a holster and kept unloading the gun to do so):
28.29mm
28.34mm
28.26mm
28.26mm
28.27mm

The deviation between a few of the rounds is 0.01mm up to 0.04mm. Is this enough deviation that I should be destroying the rounds rather than firing them through the gun? .01mm is 4 thousandths, so my worst round is 16 thousandths out of spec.

 

[Scrivener]

a 1911 should never be holstered with a round in the chamber

Interesting assertion. Especially when the declarant finds no such problem with Glocks, which are:

1. Partially cocked (striker under spring pressure);

2. Have NO manual safety; and

3. NO grip safety; AND

4. As short a trigger travel as a 1911.

Anyone heard of an ND involving a 1911 lately?

 

[Gooman24]

Ok, you guys had me really worried that I might have really been doing something risky with the rechambered ammunition. I did swap it out and now have only a fresh, first time chambered round and virgin rounds in the magazine. What to do with the ones that have been chambered up to a dozen times? Before posting this question I thought I would take some measurements. All are Winchester White Box JHP.

Unloaded JHP overall length:
28.36mm
28.30mm
28.30mm
28.33mm
28.28mm

Loaded JHP (up to 12 times is my guess since I was breaking in a holster and kept unloading the gun to do so):
28.29mm
28.34mm
28.26mm
28.26mm
28.27mm

The deviation between a few of the rounds is 0.01mm up to 0.04mm. Is this enough deviation that I should be destroying the rounds rather than firing them through the gun? .01mm is 4 thousandths, so my worst round is 16 thousandths out of spec.

I have a bunch of carry ammo that is set back like that. I was going to tap them back to spec with a kinetic puller and shoot them.

 

[Blitz1]

The OP asked about keeping one in the tube on his Sig 226, the answer to the op is yes. Put the magazine in with the slide open, close the slide, decock, eject the mag and insert another cartridge in the mag. It is legal to carry that way.

So much ado about nothing.

I have a newbie question that I hope you all can answer.

Is it a problem for me to fully load my SIG P226 by chambering a round, decocking the gun, dropping the magazine to add a round to the magazine, then reinserting the magazine?

 

[Gooman24]

The OP asked about keeping one in the tube on his Sig 226, the answer to the op is yes. Put the magazine in with the slide open, close the slide, decock, eject the mag and insert another cartridge in the mag. It is legal to carry that way.

So much ado about nothing.

The OP has been answered. But, the problem is that the crap spewed by the "instructor" could have been read and believed by a lot of people who may not have posted. Hence the much ado. Sometimes I think it is easy to forget that more people are being served here with answers and information then just the guy who asked.

 

[Jose]

Ok, you guys had me really worried that I might have really been doing something risky with the rechambered ammunition. I did swap it out and now have only a fresh, first time chambered round and virgin rounds in the magazine. What to do with the ones that have been chambered up to a dozen times? Before posting this question I thought I would take some measurements. All are Winchester White Box JHP.

Unloaded JHP overall length:
28.36mm
28.30mm
28.30mm
28.33mm
28.28mm

Loaded JHP (up to 12 times is my guess since I was breaking in a holster and kept unloading the gun to do so):
28.29mm
28.34mm
28.26mm
28.26mm
28.27mm

The deviation between a few of the rounds is 0.01mm up to 0.04mm. Is this enough deviation that I should be destroying the rounds rather than firing them through the gun? .01mm is 4 thousandths, so my worst round is 16 thousandths out of spec.

Dude, do not throw anything away. 40 microns is a non-issue.

 

[Jose]

I have a bunch of carry ammo that is set back like that. I was going to tap them back to spec with a kinetic puller and shoot them.

Again, it is fine. Do not waste your time and on top of that possibly ruin good ammo.

 

[GSG]

If you ever need to draw your gun in a defensive situation, you need it real bad and you need right now. While you can chamber a round quickly if you have two hands free, you may not have two hands free. Your support hand might be busy fending off the perp, pushing your spouse to safety, holding your child's hand, etc.

It's a very real possibility that your introduction to the defensive situation might be as the victim of an assault, possibly with weapons. I don't want to experience trying to chamber a round after getting shot in the face.

Interesting assertion. Especially when the declarant finds no such problem with Glocks, which are:

1. Partially cocked (striker under spring pressure);

2. Have NO manual safety; and

3. NO grip safety; AND

4. As short a trigger travel as a 1911.

Anyone heard of an ND involving a 1911 lately?

This one happened less than a year ago.

http://negligentdischarge.com/leg.html

Warning to the weak stomached, the pics are graphic.

 

[garandman]

I have a newbie question that I hope you all can answer.

Is it a problem for me to fully load my SIG P226 by chambering a round, decocking the gun, dropping the magazine to add a round to the magazine, then reinserting the magazine?

How about carrying the gun without a round in the chamber? I read somewhere about 1911's not liking to be carried this way because the firing pin needs to rest on something but haven't read any such thing about the SIG. //

That's hpw they teach it ay Sig Sauer Academy.

 

[Gooman24]

Again, it is fine. Do not waste your time and on top of that possibly ruin good ammo.

Dude, do not throw anything away. 40 microns is a non-issue.

The reloading data I have for similar cartridges would indicate differently. Please provided the data you have.

ETA: You are correct 40 microns would not make a difference. But 40 microns is .0016 16 thousandths is .016 BIG difference for ammo OAL.

 

[MassMark]

Why, yes....