You guys are giving a newbie, non competetive shooter, someone who has never carried before some possible dangerous advice. Let the guy get some experience first then let him decide how to carry.
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Newbie question: OK to chamber a round, drop magazine and readd round?
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I have to ask, respectfully, why you don't carry one chambered, as it doesn't make sense to me. How about a revolver? If you do, why?
It's a pretty unusual opinion that people disagree with strongly. The shorthand for this is "crap"!
This really surprises me, but to each their own. but there's a difference between "I prefer to carry in Condition 3" and "Everyone should MAKE SURE to carry in Condition 3."
J
Jose
Ahhhh, a devotee of the Modern Technique of stand and deliver using a perfect sight picture and susprise trigger break while wearing starched 5.11s. Yep, stand there like an idiot trying to draw on a man running at you with a knife and you will get cut every time. You'll get cut even more as you finger-f$ck your empty pistol to try to load it.
Or you could explode off the X with a Pekiti take-off while zippering knife-boy from CoM to head one handed wihle seeing only what you need to see to make the shot and you win. But they don't teach that at Gunsite or all the Modern Technique fanboy schools.
I'll let you shoot me in the forearm if you let me stab you on the inner thigh. Deal?
J
Jose
The only one giving dangerous and foolish advice here is you.
I would not be surprised if this was correct. The practice that I run is on a cold range, when I ask the new shooters if they would unload and show clear, they rarely have one in the chamber, I always wondered if that's how they carried or if they cleared the gun before they got there, but put the mag back in
Also, let's go back and remember that the OP was carrying not a single action 1911 but a SA/DA Sig P226. It's beyond real debate that the proper manual of arms for a Sig 226 in a holster calls for Condition 2, round in the chamber, hammer down. To the OP: This particular gun should have a round in the chamber.
OK, let's resume the 1911 debate.
OK, let's resume the 1911 debate.
I don't take CCW as seriously as most on NES. I might carry my g27 3 times per month max outside of work.
I used to carry a loaded G32 at work, but I was worried about bullet setback so I stopped.
I am perfectly comfortable carry a loaded gun. I've done it a bazillion times. I just don't personally see the need of a risk of any sort of AD/bullet setback when I can avoid that by adding .5 seconds onto the draw to fire time.
I don't store my guns loaded either, so that's where the bullet setback problem quickly becomes an issue. Every time I load a gun, its cleared before it goes into storage.
I've seen a person shot point blank in the chest by a "unloaded" gun, I just don't want to have a story to match it I suppose.
what if you don't have the use of your other hand? while there are ways to rack a gun one handed (ninja load not included) it takes even longer.
I store my competition guns unloaded, but my carry gun always stays loaded and in a different place. why mess with loading and unloading if not needed
were you habits different prior to seeing someone shot?
I store my competition guns unloaded, but my carry gun always stays loaded and in a different place. why mess with loading and unloading if not needed
were you habits different prior to seeing someone shot?
In regards to the guns status no. The guns were almost always "Amber" (mag in, nothing chambered) for over 5 months prior to the accident. On base, the weapons were "green" (weapon carried, mag in a pouch).
The only thing that the event permanently changed in my mind was to keep a weapon unloaded as long as possible before use. It's just something i prefer to see.
Also, another thing that gets me real angry about loaded firearms is how people treat them. I have been flagged by a loaded gun in the civilian world over 100 times. I can safely say that with no exaggeration. I have been flagged by people who are unloading their carry gun, with finger in the trigger guard while ejecting a live round. This sort of behavoir has also more then likely built up a large amount of contempt for loaded fire arms.
How many times have I seen a loaded gun pointed at a bad guy in the civilian word? Zero times.
How many times have I had a loaded gun pointed at me by an oblivious civilian carrying a gun? Way to many.
I'm almost at the point where I think its safe to say a loaded gun in the average civilians hand is a massive liability compared to the benefits.
I can see why you would become jaded
Oh lord.
I'm not advocating taking away peoples rights to carry to a weapon. I'm just bitter about how a small minority of gun owners and how they treat their weapons. I would like to think that gun ownership and any sort of training would go together, but simply its not the case. Some people are simply oblivious to everything they do, including the direction of their loaded weapon with their finger on the trigger.
It only takes one inconsiderate a**h*** to pull out his carry gun for god knows why, try to clear it and put a bullet through Dench's incredibly manly physique. I'm sure if you've been flagged as many times as i have you'd be slightly jaded also.
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I am under the impression that a justifiable homicide is slightly less defensible, in the legal realm, if the hammer is not already cocked when the firearm is drawn. It suggests that the weapon was first drawn, then some moment later, you decided lethal force was required and so you cocked the hammer. In other words, what were you doing drawing the weapon before you decided lethal force was required? Suggests premeditation, I guess. Anyway, this is just the impression I got, after a Sig Academy course, and it seemed to make sense. It could be this reasoning is more applicable to police departments, but I don't see how it couldn't also apply to civilians too.
The difference is that a Glock isn't cocked until the trigger is pulled, whereas with a cocked 1911 it is.
Plenty of police departments have seen exploded pistols on the range at qualification time because of rounds being rechambered.
And if I recall correctly, James Beaton, Princess Anne's bodyguard, kept rechambering the rounds in his gun, which made it jam after only getting one round off during her kidnap attempt.
Best advice.
Not true, and I'm living proof of this. Not only that, but both knife and bullet wounds can be fatal or survivable.
Exactly. Shoot and MOVE, it doesn't have to be pretty.
I see where you're coming from, but everytime that I've been muzzle swept, I've educated the person who did so after making the situation safe. Safety issues can be corrected.
Individualist
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Good points Dench. I've seen it too. I've (stupidly) done it. IMHO... I agree that it is not a great idea for new owners - without extended training and regular practice beyond what is required to be licensed - to carry chambered. Actions, muscle memory, safety techniques, recovery techniques, etc. should all be second nature. Others will disagree and I hope I don't get flamed for voicing my opinion.
Dench, you must hang around some really shitty gunhandlers. I've never had a loaded gun pointed at me that I know of. I know of it happening on one occasion at an IDPA match and the offending party was immediately shown the door. Also, the way to avoid people getting shot with 'unloaded' guns is DON'T POINT A GUN AT SOMEONE AND PULL THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU MEAN TO SHOOT THEM.
FSA, I feel sorry for your students. There's a difference between teaching someone that they need to get training and understand what's involved before carrying a gun in a condition ready for self defense and telling them that doing so is horribly dangerous and should never be done.
FSA, I feel sorry for your students. There's a difference between teaching someone that they need to get training and understand what's involved before carrying a gun in a condition ready for self defense and telling them that doing so is horribly dangerous and should never be done.
Absurd. I sincerely hope you misunderstood the SIG instructor; otherwise, you were taught nonsense.
Obviously the gun had to be drawn if it were to be used. Equally obviously, if you're one of those who carries a gun that is NOT in a ready state to be used, you would need to take the further step of racking the slide or - REALLY bad choice - cock the hammer.
Yet another reason NOT to carry on an empty chamber.
CRSIII
NES Member
If anyone wants to carry an auto-shucker on an empty pipe, fine.
Go get some Massad training.
Me? I 'aint that tough.
Would you keep your hammer in the attic and your nails in the garage?
No.
Keep it simple and use your head.
Go get some Massad training.
Me? I 'aint that tough.
Would you keep your hammer in the attic and your nails in the garage?
No.
Keep it simple and use your head.
Most NDs I would imagine happen when loading or unloading the firearm. So carrying it with one in the chamber shouldn't increase the probability of a ND because the gun is holstered. If you draw it to use it, you would hope the person is smart enough to keep their finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Any instructor should be beating that point into their students heads, instead of advising empty chamber carry.
Yeah, but it's also equally unrealistic to assume that any gun is unloaded. If the same knuckleheads can't keep their booger hook off the bang switch, then why should I believe that they'll also (reliably) keep their gun unloaded? You can't. If they're negligent enough to violate rule #1 and #2 (especially both at the same time) then I doubt the same knucklehead is going to be cognizant of the state of his firearm, either. Further, I don't think you can confine that statement to civilians. There are plenty of similar knuckleheads in LE and MIL circles, as well.
A lot of people are stupid with firearms.... that's no mystery to me... but on the same token it's also not rocket science to carry a gun with a round in the pipe, without presenting any kind of additional danger. A metric crap ton of people carry firearms on a daily basis without shooting themselves or someone else. (or even coming close to it, for that matter. )
-Mike
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If you mean Massad Ayoob then I'd assume he trains you to carry one in the pipe.
If you meant Israeli Mossad training, then you would be equally correct, because they train their people to carry with a full mag, empty chamber, safety off.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
J
Jose
Premeditation does not hinge on just one act (carrying with a loaded chamber).
You really threw your money away if that is what you were taught.
I'll stay out of the rest of it, but I learned the hard way just how slow my draw and fire is going against a timer, and I'm pretty quick out of a Level II duty holster. To take that extra '.5' to chamber is really more like 1.5 under the stress of a timer much less than Rollo the mad dog rapist coming at you.
This is more of a slam on myself, I was thinking I was a pretty quick draw McDraw until I isolated the first round from a string. Shooting against a random timer tells you exactly how fast you are between shots and 'in theory' different targets. While disappointing to my ego, it gave me something more to work on.
CRSIII
NES Member
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
