My Rant About the Boston Police Department and Renewals

[JellyFish]

Oh really? I did not know that. Veeeeeeery interesting. Hmmm...

The only thing that scares me about New Hampshire is the influx of ma**h***s up there. I'm terrified they will morph that state into Massachusetts the Sequel. Ugh! I couldn't stand it if I went up there and it all changed around me into a clone of this hellhole.

Still, in the short term, NH is a much better bet than staying in MA. Although if I leave I will continue to support GOAL as I think they are doing the best they can for MA gun owners.

Both Jesse and you are right!

IIRC, there is a rather infamous court case Atty Karen MacNutt vs. Comm'r of Boston PD (sorry I don't have a cite) where she specifically sued wrt to the Moon Island test. Court ruled that the test was "reasonable" and fit the "suitability" discretion of the police comm'r. So fighting it has been tried and lost. You can't really win these battles in MA courts, not until all discretion is taken away from the local chiefs/politicians . . . and that won't happen in MA!

 

[Scrivener]

IIRC, there is a rather infamous court case Atty Karen MacNutt vs. Comm'r of Boston PD (sorry I don't have a cite) where she specifically sued wrt to the Moon Island test. Court ruled that the test was "reasonable" and fit the "suitability" discretion of the police comm'r. So fighting it has been tried and lost.

You cite LONG obsolete law. It's title is MacNutt v. Police Commissioner of Boston, oddly enough. See 30 Mass. App. Ct. 632, 635 (1991).

Chapter 180 of 1998 gave us the safety certificate statute, followed by the CMR specifying its details. Each is wholly devoid of ANY requirement of, or even a reference to, a "range test."

Chief Glidden, on a MCOPA bulletin board, has 1. expressly said that there is no legal basis for the "range test" and 2. that those towns abusing authority by demanding same (for renewals. no less) are inviting further curtailment by the legislature.

I am not aware of any challenges to these abuses since the statute was enacted; ergo, there is little basis for the blanket claim that "fighting it has been tried and lost. "

 

[JellyFish]

Well I'd like to be excited to hear that but it doesn't seem like the Boston PD gives a crap. And there is NO way to force them to issue the license, I see no basis for taking them to court on it either (though I wish it could be done and that they would lose).

They have been getting away with this for years and nobody seems to give a damn, not one of the politicians I wrote to answered me. There is no one to appeal a refusal to issue the license to that I know of.

Am I missing something here???? Is there a way to get my license renewed without the headache of the range test?

You cite LONG obsolete law. It's title is MacNutt v. Police Commissioner of Boston, oddly enough. See 30 Mass. App. Ct. 632, 635 (1991).

Chapter 180 of 1998 gave us the safety certificate statute, followed by the CMR specifying its details. Each is wholly devoid of ANY requirement of, or even a reference to, a "range test."

Chief Glidden, on a MCOPA bulletin board, has 1. expressly said that there is no legal basis for the "range test" and 2. that those towns abusing authority by demanding same (for renewals. no less) are inviting further curtailment by the legislature.

I am not aware of any challenges to these abuses since the statute was enacted; ergo, there is little basis for the blanket claim that "fighting it has been tried and lost. "

 

[Lugnut]

Seriously... does anyone from GOAL check out this forum? I'm concerned we're ranting and complaining amongst ourselves (not that it's bad to vent!)and not helping our situation. Maybe someone from GOAL could add some insight and maybe give us some ideas of what we can really do.

 

[JellyFish]

I talked to them too on the phone and they are aware of the range test requirement in Boston but there's apparently nothing they can do.

Boston has its residents by the balls and, unless you are connected politically, you have to dance to their tune to get your awesome crippled license. LOL

Seriously... does anyone from GOAL check out this forum? I'm concerned we're ranting and complaining amongst ourselves (not that it's bad to vent!)and not helping our situation. Maybe someone from GOAL could add some insight and maybe give us some ideas of what we can really do.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Keith thanks for the update. But the beat keeps on going . . . Boston hasn't changed their tune and I don't think that they ever will. They don't care what the law says, nobody big enough to hurt them or force them to do differently.

Ron keeps harping on the BS requirements, the legislature hears our sordid tales of woe, and then the MCOPA lobbyist smooths things over with the legislators after the lights are turned off in Gardner Auditorium . . . nothing changes and I don't expect that the chiefs here will ever lose their "suitability" discretion.

Jellyfish, I know some folks that are very well connected in Boston, get an unrestricted LTC-A, BUT even they have to do the Moon Island test. I've not heard of anyone getting a "pass" on that Boston BS "requirement".

 

[JellyFish]

Yeah, I didn't think so. No worries, I'll probably take the test but I'm also checking out apartments in NH as well. I may end up getting my renewal then leaving Boston anyway. Ha! Talk about irony!

I agree that nothing is going to change here in MA. The legislature doesn't care and neither does the governor/lieut. governor. I've never felt so powerless about a particular issue, there seems to be no way to make any kind of progress on changing any of this. Boston does whatever it wants and there is no accountability and there seem to be some other towns in the state that do exactly the same thing.

Keith thanks for the update. But the beat keeps on going . . . Boston hasn't changed their tune and I don't think that they ever will. They don't care what the law says, nobody big enough to hurt them or force them to do differently.

Ron keeps harping on the BS requirements, the legislature hears our sordid tales of woe, and then the MCOPA lobbyist smooths things over with the legislators after the lights are turned off in Gardner Auditorium . . . nothing changes and I don't expect that the chiefs here will ever lose their "suitability" discretion.

Jellyfish, I know some folks that are very well connected in Boston, get an unrestricted LTC-A, BUT even they have to do the Moon Island test. I've not heard of anyone getting a "pass" on that Boston BS "requirement".

 

[JonJ]

Keith thanks for the update. But the beat keeps on going . . . Boston hasn't changed their tune and I don't think that they ever will. They don't care what the law says, nobody big enough to hurt them or force them to do differently.

Someone needs to pony up the cash, hire a lawyer and fight. At this point, that's the only way to get the madness to stop.

 

[Scrivener]

They have been getting away with this for years and nobody seems to give a damn, not one of the politicians I wrote to answered me. There is no one to appeal a refusal to issue the license to that I know of.

Am I missing something here????

Yes - the obvious. You are under the delusion that some politician

1. Can; and

2. Will

Intervene to get you a license.

You are woefully deluded, as made quite clear by your assertion that "there is no ONE to appeal a refusal" to. As those who actually bothered to acquaint themselves with the process - or even READ the stickies on this forum - well knows, the appeals process is set forth in the licensing statute. The forum is in District Court; not whining letters to useless pols.

 

[Lugnut]

In the bigger picture... once MA, NY, CA and IL completely ban guns... you know what will happen next. Can't give up! Best thing to do is to educate as many people as we can as to why law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry. Politicians and the local PD can do what they want because other than US... no one really cares.

 

[bpm990d]

In the bigger picture... once MA, NY, CA and IL completely ban guns... you know what will happen next.

They won’t ever ban guns. Too much political fallout from that approach. They will legislate them into the realm of impossibility for the average citizen; yet grant themselves the power to bestow the appropriate license upon their political hack friends and major donors. All the big antis have their own guns.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jon & Scrivener,

Atty Karen MacNutt is a long-time acquaintance, going back almost to the time that GOAL was Founded (1975, I got involved with GOAL & shooting in 1976). I've had lots of conversations with her as well as heard tales of woe from others (like on this forum and predecessors).

I've been told about court cases where a judge ordered the Boston PD to return guns, etc. to the rightful owner . . . but that rightful owner was jerked around by the PD who either refused to follow the judges order outright or told them that they had to meet with Officer x only between certain hours on a certain day (always a workday/work hours, designed for inconvenience). Mysteriously Officer x was never available during the specified day/time, or the person was re-routed to another department/PD location, etc. Boston PD has it down to a science to grind a person into submission and jerk them around for 6 months or more until they just "give up".

I recall the case of the guy in Concord (who testified in front of the Jt Comm on Public Safety out in Grafton) who got a court order to return his guns and FID. Concord PD refused to obey the order. I recall discussing this testimony with Reed Hillman as we were both headed to the men's room during the hearings. Reed thought the story was a terrible miscarriage of justice, but other than wringing our hands there isn't much that the legislature (he was a State Rep at that time and served on that committee) or anyone else could do to change things for the better.

One has to have basically unlimited funds and spare time to fight these "experts" into submission and those PDs that make this a habit know this and use it to their advantage.

Luckily, I have never had to fight this battle personally, but I have had one personal experience with the court system that made me very angry and frustrated . . . at the judge and the system and have vowed to stay as far away as possible since then. Very briefly, back ~1977 I hired two guys to paint my house, signed a contract, gave them $250 advance on an $800 job (we supplied all paint). They didn't do the work, refused to discuss it and we went to Small Claims Court. FIVE trips to court, 12 hours out of work (salaried job so my employer ate this), a judgment for $100, default and an arrest warrant issued on one of them, harassing phone calls at 3AM, twice assaulted in the center of town, harassed at the house, etc. NOT worth all that effort! Oh yeah, while awaiting the trial I was talking with our PD Prosecutor and he advised me NOT to mention the harassment issues in the court case . . . I followed his advice, but I'm still not convinced whether or not that was a smart thing to do. While sitting in court, the judge postponed all of the days cases because of a personal issue with his Son that he was told about while we were all sitting in court . . . that was one of the 5 trips to court. JUSTICE system, I think not!

So, you are both right by the letter of the law, but regrettably so am I regarding how useless the law can be from a practical point.

 

[Scrivener]

I've been told about court cases where a judge ordered the Boston PD to return guns, etc. to the rightful owner . . . but that rightful owner was jerked around by the PD who either refused to follow the judges order outright or told them that they had to meet with Officer x only between certain hours on a certain day (always a workday/work hours, designed for inconvenience). ... I recall the case of the guy in Concord (who testified in front of the Jt Comm on Public Safety out in Grafton) who got a court order to return his guns and FID. Concord PD refused to obey the order.

At which point the diligent owner files a Complaint for Contempt with Award of Costs and Fees. As this is part of the original action, there isn't even a filing fee.

 

[JellyFish]

I'm aware that it's the district court, my letters were sent to encourage the politicians in question to do *something* legislatively to put a stop to Boston's abuse of its power.

As far as taking it to district court over the range test, that's apparently already been tried and it has failed. What would you suggest that we do now? Take it to court again? Hope for a different judge?

Doesn't seem like taking them to court over ridiculous requirements will accomplish anything of note. The law itself needs to be changed to "shall issue" and not "may issue." That's the heart of the problem.

Yes - the obvious. You are under the delusion that some politician

1. Can; and

2. Will

Intervene to get you a license.

You are woefully deluded, as made quite clear by your assertion that "there is no ONE to appeal a refusal" to. As those who actually bothered to acquaint themselves with the process - or even READ the stickies on this forum - well knows, the appeals process is set forth in the licensing statute. The forum is in District Court; not whining letters to useless pols.

 

[KMaurer]

At which point the diligent owner files a Complaint for Contempt with Award of Costs and Fees. As this is part of the original action, there isn't even a filing fee.

Precisely. Stop and think about it for a minute. In cases like this the PD isn't just telling you to go bleep yourself, they're telling the judge that he can do the same thing. Why should you be the only one looking for a little payback, when you can have a judge looking for the same thing? While you can only bitch and moan about it, he can pick out somebody sufficiently high up in the chain to get the job done and make him personally reponsible for the job. Then if the job isn't done within 48 hours, he can let that officer enjoy the court lock-up (and pay more rent for it than he would at any Boston hotel) until everything's taken care of.

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ken,

Can and Will are not related.

I have NO CONFIDENCE that Boston area judges will hold a police chief/commissioner in contempt of court and jail him/her! NONE AT ALL!

They will give them "another chance" and then "another" and "another" as they come up with all sorts of excuses for why they haven't complied. Meanwhile the poor gun-owner takes time off from work each time, pays an attorney to be at court, etc. Costs (employers probably aren't too sympathetic) in time and dollars (even if ordered to pay, city will probably pay about the time the cows come home) in many cases start to exceed value of the guns.

 

[JellyFish]

Yup, they sure do have it down to a science. Resisting them is quite futile as you won't get anywhere nor will they even put their refusal in writing if they don't want to.

When I first went to renew my license, I naively thought I could just bring my license and $100 and do a quick renewal. Little did I know that I'd have to go all the way back through the entire process all over again.

I had some words with one of the sergeants there who was extremely rude and nasty to me. He claimed that "suitability" was the reason why I had to start all over again. I explained that "suitability" had already been established as that's why I had the license in my hand already and that none of my information had changed since I got it. He slammed his card down on the counter (as I'd asked him for it), said he wasn't renewing my license and walked away. He left me standing there at the counter and none of the other people would even look at me.

That's the kind of bullshit that the Boston PD engages in. They do WHATEVER THEY WANT to you and you have NO recourse and no ability to do anything. Take them to court? Ha! On what grounds? They can twist "suitability" to mean anything they damn well want and tough crap if you don't like it.

At this point I regard the Boston PD licensing department and Menino himself as scumbags, pure and simple. I have no respect for them whatsoever. They are a corrupt, incompetent police department that should be ripped apart and totally reformed. That will never happen in Meninostan, however. The corruption, incompetence and abuse of law abiding gun owners will continue.

Jon & Scrivener,

Boston PD has it down to a science to grind a person into submission and jerk them around for 6 months or more until they just "give up".

One has to have basically unlimited funds and spare time to fight these "experts" into submission and those PDs that make this a habit know this and use it to their advantage.

So, you are both right by the letter of the law, but regrettably so am I regarding how useless the law can be from a practical point.

 

[Scrivener]

As far as taking it to district court over the range test, that's apparently already been tried and it has failed. What would you suggest that we do now? Take it to court again? Hope for a different judge?

I'd suggest you pay attention to what is already on this forum in general and this thread in particular.

As those who actually read and comprehended what I posted already know, the range test has NOT "already been tried", still less "failed." Once again - read it slowly - such requirements HAVE NOT BEEN CHALLENGED since the "safety course statute" was enacted. Grasp the concept.

 

[JellyFish]

How does the "safety course" statute affect the range test? One can take a safety class but that doesn't guarantee comptetent marksmanship. Do you really believe that a judge is going to rule differently?

And how much would it cost to pursue such an action in court? Are there lawyers on this board that would take such a case? I wouldn't mind being a test case for it if there really was a possibility to stop them once and for all on their unreasonable requirements.

I'd suggest you pay attention to what is already on this forum in general and this thread in particular.

As those who actually read and comprehended what I posted already know, the range test has NOT "already been tried", still less "failed." Once again - read it slowly - such requirements HAVE NOT BEEN CHALLENGED since the "safety course statute" was enacted. Grasp the concept.

 

[Coyote33]

Someone needs to pony up the cash, hire a lawyer and fight. At this point, that's the only way to get the madness to stop.

Hello NRA.

 

[KMaurer]

How does the "safety course" statute affect the range test? One can take a safety class but that doesn't guarantee comptetent marksmanship. Do you really believe that a judge is going to rule differently?

And how much would it cost to pursue such an action in court? Are there lawyers on this board that would take such a case? I wouldn't mind being a test case for it if there really was a possibility to stop them once and for all on their unreasonable requirements.

Rather than hold my breath waiting for a simple and direct answer to this question from our resident legal expert, I'll stick my neck out. I believe that ths safety course requirement imposed in 1998 is, as you suspect, the key element here. The Appellate Court decision [MacNutt v. Police Commissioner of Boston, 30 Mass.App.Ct. 632 (1991)] basically contained two rulings. First, it ruled that the (then) $6 fee for the range test was unlawful. I'm sure that Boston has some new story to tell, porpurting to explain why their current $100 fee is lawful. Second, and more on point for the current discussion, the court ruled that the legislature had provided no guidance or standards for evaluating competency in firearms handling, so that the the local licensing authorities had pretty much carte blanche in setting up their own means for determination, limited only by the bounds (if any in practice) of "arbitrary and capricious". With the 1998 changes in MGL, the legislature has not explicitly established a training standard, so an applicant might had some success in arguing that the police no longer had free reign in setting up their own qualifications standards.

Ken

 

[JellyFish]

Okay guys, I got a reply to my rant from the Governor's office today. Here is the text of the reply:

"I am writing to let you know that I have received your letter concerning firearms licensing, and I appreciate your taking the time to write.

Your letter has also been forwarded to the Executive Office of Public Safety for review and, if appropriate, additional follow-up with you. Thank you once again for contacting my office and for caring about the future of our families and the Commonwealth.

Mitt Romney"

Well at least he acknowledged the topic of my letter and forwarded it. I doubt the EOPS will do much though. But I'm still glad I wrote it. I will not remain silent, that does nothing to help. At least I tried to make my voice heard, maybe at some point it will make a difference.

 

[Lynne]

Well at least he acknowledged the topic of my letter and forwarded it. I doubt the EOPS will do much though. But I'm still glad I wrote it. I will not remain silent, that does nothing to help. At least I tried to make my voice heard, maybe at some point it will make a difference.

The important thing is that you DID write. If enough people do it, it just might help a bit, or at least cause them some pause in their thinking.

Yes, I'm still an optimist....although there are times when it gets awfully tough to remain one.

 

[JellyFish]

Right on Lynne. Silence = death so we might as well be loud and proud. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that.

The important thing is that you DID write. If enough people do it, it just might help a bit, or at least cause them some pause in their thinking.

Yes, I'm still an optimist....although there are times when it gets awfully tough to remain one.