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My first AR: to buy or what not to buy
- Thread starter frville
- Start date
The only problem i have with RRA or Anvil is i haven't been able to see any at any local gun shops. Do you know of any local gun shops in the boston area that sells them? Four Seasons? Collectors gallery?
The beauty of an Anvil Arms build is that you get your own rifle - custom built to your own specifications. This and it's about the same or even less money than many off the shelf AR-15's. I don't think you are making a poor choice in buying a Bushmaster - just thought I'd point out what for me seems a better option. To me, there's a feeling of comfort having your rifle built by an armorer who actually uses what he builds for a living....
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At this point, why not wait and buy a Bushmaster ACR (Magpul Masada)?
It's basically an AR but redesigned to fix all the AR faults.
It's basically an AR but redesigned to fix all the AR faults.
What faults ?
Now you did it... you opened a can of worms!
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
( This is my personal opinion and am trying to keep this general in nature... don't wave quotes and sites at me. He's asking and I'm just trying to start him thinking. )
There are 3 major problem areas with the M-16/AR-15 family of rifles:
1) It's direct-impingement(sp) gas system.
2) The magazines.
3) The cartridge it fires.
The strengths of the rifle are:
1) Ergonomics.
2) Ease of converting the nature of the rifle by swapping uppers.
3) Accuracy of the base rifle.
All of this can be looked at online or in several good books on the subject. Sad part is that there is a lot of info and emotion on this subject, same as a 1911 vs Glock thread seems to bring people out of the woodwork. I'll leave you with these ideas to start.
Joe R.
Now you did it... you opened a can of worms!
( This is my personal opinion and am trying to keep this general in nature... don't wave quotes and sites at me. He's asking and I'm just trying to start him thinking. )
No quotes? No sites? You throw opinion into the wind and somehow don't want to be disturbed with facts?
There are 3 major problem areas with the M-16/AR-15 family of rifles:
1) It's direct-impingement(sp) gas system.
The DI system has been used successfully in properlay built and maintained rifles for decades. It's a proven system that works - why change?
2) The magazines.
Buying in spec and not cheap after market magazines is a good way to keep a rifle running properly. Show me examples where USGI Contract magazines are prone to failure please, (you can wave facts and sites if you wish)
3) The cartridge it fires.
Again, what are your problems with the 5.56 cartridge - there are a lot of bones in the dirt at the hands of the 5.56. Please guide me into the ineffectiveness of the 5.56 and feel free to cite sources who can explain why the cartridge is still in use this very minute, (despite the attempts to replace it)
The strengths of the rifle are:
1) Ergonomics. Agreed
2) Ease of converting the nature of the rifle by swapping uppers. Agreed.
3) Accuracy of the base rifle. Agreed.
All of this can be looked at online or in several good books on the subject. Sad part is that there is a lot of info and emotion on this subject, same as a 1911 vs Glock thread seems to bring people out of the woodwork. I'll leave you with these ideas to start.
Joe R.
While I am certainly no expert, (by any stretch), I am able to discern hype with reality when it comes to the AR-15. Is it perfect? No, but it is a proven, effective and sound rifle. Since it's inception the AR-15/M-16 has had a lot of competition chomping at the bit to replace it - all have failed. My Colt AR-15 had 10's of thousands of rounds poured through it. The only failures happend with a bad after market magazine and some old Wolf laquered ammo. I did not come close to "properly maintaining" this rifle - not even close. No fancy pipe cleaners, chamber brushes, nada. I used a rag, toothbrush and a USGI cleaning kit. I sold the rifle after dumping my last 15,000 rounds of Malaysian through it and it's still running to this day with a guy who is even less prone to proper maintenance. A properly built rifle, quality ammo and quality magazines are the only keys to the AR-15 door...
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Hehe. Ok not "faults". I love my Stag M4.
The ACR is 1/2 lb lighter, uses a piston system instead of gas, is ambi out of the factory.
The charging handle is no longer in front of your face.
The ACR is 1/2 lb lighter, uses a piston system instead of gas, is ambi out of the factory.
The charging handle is no longer in front of your face.
Chris
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As a recent convert to the AR system, I have to agree it's a damn fine rifle.
As for the gas system, sure it messes up the upper with crud that needs to be cleaned, but it's a heck of a lot easier to clean that out (You can just blast it out with a spray can of CLP if you need to) than the nasty job cleaning out the piston on other rifles.
And overall, the gas tube doesn't really have to be cleaned. It's pretty good at keeping itself clean if you use a quality ammo.
The 5.56 isn't the heavy round we used to use, but it's not a bad round. I'd like to see something above 6mm for a bit more mass in the air, but overall it still takes a good hit to do the job and teaching someone to make good hits with the light recoil of the AR is pretty easy.
Time and again, all it takes to hook someone on the AR is to pull the trigger. (^_^)
As for the gas system, sure it messes up the upper with crud that needs to be cleaned, but it's a heck of a lot easier to clean that out (You can just blast it out with a spray can of CLP if you need to) than the nasty job cleaning out the piston on other rifles.
And overall, the gas tube doesn't really have to be cleaned. It's pretty good at keeping itself clean if you use a quality ammo.
The 5.56 isn't the heavy round we used to use, but it's not a bad round. I'd like to see something above 6mm for a bit more mass in the air, but overall it still takes a good hit to do the job and teaching someone to make good hits with the light recoil of the AR is pretty easy.
Time and again, all it takes to hook someone on the AR is to pull the trigger. (^_^)
Chris
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Hehe. Ok not "faults". I love my Stag M4.
The ACR is 1/2 lb lighter, uses a piston system instead of gas, is ambi out of the factory.
The charging handle is no longer in front of your face.
You also forgot the significantly more modular design that allows you to 'rebuild' the rifle quickly to do specific jobs. Everything from sniper quality long range to CCB.
However, none of that takes anything away from what the AR is. It just offers yet another choice.
I'll add what the designers at Bushmaster (who tweaked the Masada's design) listed as "faults" of the current AR design, which the Masada/ACR "fixes".
And I do want to say that the Masada/ACR's design is BASED on the AR platform BECAUSE it is so great. So no one is saying that the AR sucks... it's just not perfect. And there are a few ways to improve it.
1. The current AR charging handle is positioned poorly. It prevents the use of any type of vertical adjusting stock. The Masada/ACR alleviates this by moving the charging handle up to the front of the rifle.
2. The current AR isn't ambidextrous. The Masada/ACR is.
3. Stock AR's do not have a free floated barrel. The Masada/ACR does.
4. Although the current AR isn't necessarily heavy, the Masada/ACR is 1/2 lb lighter.
5. The current AR's bolt catch is positioned poorly. The Masada/ACR's bolt catch is designed to be actuated with your shooting hand without having to remove your shooting hand from the shooting position. It is also Ambidextrous.
6. The current AR requires a change of uppers to change barrel lengths (which really isn't a fault at all). However the Masada/ACR take this versatility a step further and allows the change out of barrels without having to change uppers. This means a soldier only has to carry 3 extra barrels instead of 3 extra uppers.
I think that's it...
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
check it out here: http://www.ar15pro.com/
The current AR is great. But a lot of its design is certainly being improved upon.
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Yeah but it looks like a super soaker.
Why is the ACR/Masada even being mentioned? There is not a Chance in hell of finding on for less than $1500, if they come out this year. Not to mention the price will very likely be around $2000.
As to the AR-15, get a lower, stripped or complete, whatever you feel comfortable with. Then get a complete upper separate, and avoid a bunch of taxes.
As to the AR-15, get a lower, stripped or complete, whatever you feel comfortable with. Then get a complete upper separate, and avoid a bunch of taxes.
Well... someone suggested waiting for it... then a discussion ensued
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Who knows what it'll cost... Some say $2500... Some say $1200. We won't know until we know. Anyway... thread jack over...
I know that the "Black Rifle" has a mystique all of its own and many swear by the M16. I had the "opportunity" to have issued to me everything from the original Colt M16 (without the foward assist) to the FN made M16A2 and frankly, I never had one issued to me that didn't jam, and was a royal pain in the buttinski to clean.
Frankly, if I were in the market for a civilian version of a battle rifle, I'd shell out the bucks for a Springfield Armory M1A, or a real honest to God M1 Garand (getting harder to find in good condition)
A lot of people love the M16 family of weapons, but I would also respectfully point out that there are many in the Army who feel that there are better products on the market such as the new H&K. Granted the M1A might be considered retro, but like the M1911A1 and the B52 bomber it represents old but good technology that will do the job when the chips are down.
Mark L.
Frankly, if I were in the market for a civilian version of a battle rifle, I'd shell out the bucks for a Springfield Armory M1A, or a real honest to God M1 Garand (getting harder to find in good condition)
A lot of people love the M16 family of weapons, but I would also respectfully point out that there are many in the Army who feel that there are better products on the market such as the new H&K. Granted the M1A might be considered retro, but like the M1911A1 and the B52 bomber it represents old but good technology that will do the job when the chips are down.
Mark L.
MassMark, this is starting to get old... do you have any opinions on the 1911 vs Glock you want to pound on me with? ![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
In my list, those were the main " faults " that one company or another have tried something to " fix " the system with because of user input. I was trying to give him a starting point to let him look up the info himself, not have it force-fed by the disciples. What is wrong with that idea? Wouldn't that have been better if he looked it up for his own knowledge versus acceptting the group-think?
Okay, my replies:
1) The system works very well clean and decently when it's dirty. Would it be possible to make it more friendlier for cleaning and operating under less than ideal conditions? Yes, it's called a gas piston system and is underway by companies like HK, LWRC, and a couple of smaller companies. Is this a solution or is this a solution looking for a problem? Some say that it's not needed while some wanted these yesterday. Me... I see the advantage of the idea and maybe when it comes down to my price range I'll grab one. Till then, I'll keep the original design with all of it's cleaning faults included.
2) Take your favorite GI magazine, load it up with 28-30 rds. Take the magazine and bang it with some force against something hard. Now put that mag into the rifle and keep pulling the trigger until empty. The aluminum mag body WILL dent and trap the rounds below the dent and make the mag useless. I know this because it happened to me in the service. I also had 2 mags that the feed lips cracked due to age and use. I was on USMC's dime at the time so they were turned into the armory and replaced. The aluminum body is great, for the most part, but the mags won't take the pounding that the AK steel mags will. Yes, I know that there are steel AR mags ( HK and others ) but some of the people complain about the weight. Damn, you can't have both... or can you? I have one of the Magpul PMAGS and so far I'm impressed. It falls out of my lowers with no issues, handles well and seems to take a beating that would have dented one of my metal GI mags. As with anything new though, it will take time to see if it is a good substitute.
As far as the follower problems, I never saw that in the service. All my mags had the black follower in them and they seemed to work fine. If I had a jam related to the follower, it was maybe 1 or 2 times in my service time. To me it is a non-issue. If you want to put the Magpul followers ( with come stock in the PMAG's ) in your mags, have at it.
3) 5.56x45mm - hmmm, how to handle this one. There has been a lot of dead bodies created with this cartridge so saying that it doesn't work is being disingenuous to it. The cartridge relies on fragmentation for it's " stopping power " ( I'll leave this to the experts as a definition but this is how the round works so I'll keep it for this explaination.) Penetration was also an issue and that is why the SS109 ( now the M855 ) round was developed. It would penetrate a US helmet out to 800m or so. Still though the round has to fragment to work it's stopping magic, which it could out of a 20" tube. Now that the 14.5" tube is pretty much a standard, they're starting to have issues with the cartridge.
Again, this is basically a problem that maybe only a small part of the active military wants a solution for. Some are perfectly happy with the round and would like the ammo to be brought up to MK262 spec to work right for everybody. Others would like to see this round changed to something else. 6.8 SPC is a neat cartridge but I think that the miltary will keep the 5.56mm because they are setup with so many rounds and parts that it would be expensive to change over.
Again guys, I'm one of you guys with old service experience and some classes under my belt. My info is worth less than $.02 on the open market but I have seen what I have seen and that influences what I say. I have looked around and read things from people that know what is going on and agree with with most of what they say. Please feel free to read anything that is available and decide for YOURSELF what is good or not.
Joe R.
In my list, those were the main " faults " that one company or another have tried something to " fix " the system with because of user input. I was trying to give him a starting point to let him look up the info himself, not have it force-fed by the disciples. What is wrong with that idea? Wouldn't that have been better if he looked it up for his own knowledge versus acceptting the group-think?
Okay, my replies:
1) The system works very well clean and decently when it's dirty. Would it be possible to make it more friendlier for cleaning and operating under less than ideal conditions? Yes, it's called a gas piston system and is underway by companies like HK, LWRC, and a couple of smaller companies. Is this a solution or is this a solution looking for a problem? Some say that it's not needed while some wanted these yesterday. Me... I see the advantage of the idea and maybe when it comes down to my price range I'll grab one. Till then, I'll keep the original design with all of it's cleaning faults included.
2) Take your favorite GI magazine, load it up with 28-30 rds. Take the magazine and bang it with some force against something hard. Now put that mag into the rifle and keep pulling the trigger until empty. The aluminum mag body WILL dent and trap the rounds below the dent and make the mag useless. I know this because it happened to me in the service. I also had 2 mags that the feed lips cracked due to age and use. I was on USMC's dime at the time so they were turned into the armory and replaced. The aluminum body is great, for the most part, but the mags won't take the pounding that the AK steel mags will. Yes, I know that there are steel AR mags ( HK and others ) but some of the people complain about the weight. Damn, you can't have both... or can you? I have one of the Magpul PMAGS and so far I'm impressed. It falls out of my lowers with no issues, handles well and seems to take a beating that would have dented one of my metal GI mags. As with anything new though, it will take time to see if it is a good substitute.
As far as the follower problems, I never saw that in the service. All my mags had the black follower in them and they seemed to work fine. If I had a jam related to the follower, it was maybe 1 or 2 times in my service time. To me it is a non-issue. If you want to put the Magpul followers ( with come stock in the PMAG's ) in your mags, have at it.
3) 5.56x45mm - hmmm, how to handle this one. There has been a lot of dead bodies created with this cartridge so saying that it doesn't work is being disingenuous to it. The cartridge relies on fragmentation for it's " stopping power " ( I'll leave this to the experts as a definition but this is how the round works so I'll keep it for this explaination.) Penetration was also an issue and that is why the SS109 ( now the M855 ) round was developed. It would penetrate a US helmet out to 800m or so. Still though the round has to fragment to work it's stopping magic, which it could out of a 20" tube. Now that the 14.5" tube is pretty much a standard, they're starting to have issues with the cartridge.
Again, this is basically a problem that maybe only a small part of the active military wants a solution for. Some are perfectly happy with the round and would like the ammo to be brought up to MK262 spec to work right for everybody. Others would like to see this round changed to something else. 6.8 SPC is a neat cartridge but I think that the miltary will keep the 5.56mm because they are setup with so many rounds and parts that it would be expensive to change over.
Again guys, I'm one of you guys with old service experience and some classes under my belt. My info is worth less than $.02 on the open market but I have seen what I have seen and that influences what I say. I have looked around and read things from people that know what is going on and agree with with most of what they say. Please feel free to read anything that is available and decide for YOURSELF what is good or not.
Joe R.
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MassMark, this is starting to get old... do you have any opinions on the 1911 vs Glock you want to pound on me with?
So is you chucking your opinions out there and recoiling when anyone dares to disagree. Last time I checked this was a place where differing opinions not only are expressed, but can be learned from. I respect your right to your opinion, but it becomes increasing clear that the same is not shared. So Joe, I guess in a perfect world, you can spout and spew how you feel about any particular subject and no one will dare to disagree or discuss. No one's "pounding" on you Joe - I have better things to do with my time. However when I see opinion coupled with disinformation coupled with a challenge not to challenge, I guess it's in my nature to do just that. My apologies for not considering that you hold your opinions to be absolute....I'll try and avoid stirring your sensitivities in the future. Feel free to spout on undisturbed.
By the way, I prefer a good 1911 myself...
You know, I was gonna say something but I guess I'll just keep it to myself because I might spout something that might upset the balance on this forum. I'll just be stupid and just do +1 instead of challenging someone to look for it themselves...
( Kind of funny, you just did to me what I did to DM - did it feel good for you as it did for me? )
Joe R.
( Kind of funny, you just did to me what I did to DM - did it feel good for you as it did for me?
) Joe R.
It is human nature to improve things. An AR-15 might be "fine" but there's always a simple reason to change - people want something a little better. I'm told that chop sticks are awesome and like 4000 years old, but I use a knife, fork, and spoon.
Having little experience with AR's and no experience with the ACR, I think I would prefer an AR over the ACR for the following two reasons which don't require any experience:
1. "Everyone" in the US has an AR or 3. If you need something for your rifle, there's stuff out there. As modular as the ACR is, most of the parts are ACR parts and will only come from Bushmaster unless and until the gun is wildly popular.
2. I have yet to read about the history of any gun that is problem-free at launch. It always seems prudent to buy something that's got at least a few years in the hands of the public/military/law enforcement.
Of course, I realize that a new gun will never be a popular, well-tested gun with lots of after market parts until someone buys and uses it. But if you only have money for 1, I think you have to go with an AR and let someone else eat the early adopter penalty.
Maybe the best answer is to simply make more money and buy one of each
.
Having little experience with AR's and no experience with the ACR, I think I would prefer an AR over the ACR for the following two reasons which don't require any experience:
1. "Everyone" in the US has an AR or 3. If you need something for your rifle, there's stuff out there. As modular as the ACR is, most of the parts are ACR parts and will only come from Bushmaster unless and until the gun is wildly popular.
2. I have yet to read about the history of any gun that is problem-free at launch. It always seems prudent to buy something that's got at least a few years in the hands of the public/military/law enforcement.
Of course, I realize that a new gun will never be a popular, well-tested gun with lots of after market parts until someone buys and uses it. But if you only have money for 1, I think you have to go with an AR and let someone else eat the early adopter penalty.
Maybe the best answer is to simply make more money and buy one of each
.
Stag
I bought a Stag at Four Seasons and love it.
During my cleaning process I lost a retaining pin, called Stag and they sent me one for free. Their service is outstanding. As a fellow AR newbie I am very please with my Stag and would highly recomend buying Stag.
I bought a Stag at Four Seasons and love it.
During my cleaning process I lost a retaining pin, called Stag and they sent me one for free. Their service is outstanding. As a fellow AR newbie I am very please with my Stag and would highly recomend buying Stag.
The best thing you can do is 1st buy knowlege. If you've never owned or shot an AR and have no idea what all the words; flat top, Hi Pro, A2, A3 or A4 mean. You 1st must learn to make an intelligent decision.
Go to:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/M6Books.htm
They have at least three very good books on the AR. I reccomend two at least:
The AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide
—How to build your own AR-15
—by Walt Kuleck with Clint McKee.
The AR-15 Owner's Guide (2000) by Walt Kuleck and Scott A. Duff
The third can be bought after:
THE COMPETITIVE AR15
The Complete AR15 High Performance Guide!
by Glen Zediker
I would start there. I did and I was very happy I did. I had mine built. It's a Custom Built Left handed DPMS Hi Pro. The lower is all ambi.
Read and learn.
Go to:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/M6Books.htm
They have at least three very good books on the AR. I reccomend two at least:
The AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide
—How to build your own AR-15
—by Walt Kuleck with Clint McKee.
The AR-15 Owner's Guide (2000) by Walt Kuleck and Scott A. Duff
The third can be bought after:
THE COMPETITIVE AR15
The Complete AR15 High Performance Guide!
by Glen Zediker
I would start there. I did and I was very happy I did. I had mine built. It's a Custom Built Left handed DPMS Hi Pro. The lower is all ambi.
Read and learn.
Chuck Would,
You are 110% correct about buying knowledge. I think 99.9% of this purchase is finding everything out about an AR and going from there. Plus, i think half of the fun is the search process. Thanks for the book titles, i think they will come in handy...
You are 110% correct about buying knowledge. I think 99.9% of this purchase is finding everything out about an AR and going from there. Plus, i think half of the fun is the search process. Thanks for the book titles, i think they will come in handy...
