My club now asks applicant's race/ethnicity.

[usnma]

I think I found another reason to leave my gun club. I was looking at their new membership application and they are now asking what race and ethnicity the applicant is. The quotes below are statements from the application.

I have looked at a few clubs applications and see nothing like this on any of them.

“In accordance with Federal Law and USDA Policy, this institution is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of race, color,
national origin, sex, age, or disability (not all prohibited bases apply to all programs). To file a complaint of discrimination,
write to: USDA, Director, Office of Civil Rights, Room 326-W, Whitten Building, 1400 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington,
D.C., 20250-9410, or call 1-800-795-3272 (voice) or 202-720-6382 (TDD). USDA is an equal opportunity provider and
employer.”

”The information regarding race, national origin, and sex designation solicited on this application is requested in order to assure
the Federal Government, acting through USDA Rural Development, that Federal laws prohibiting discrimination against resident
applications on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status, age, and disability are complied with.
You are not required to furnish this information, but are encouraged to do so. This information will not be used in evaluating
your application or to discriminate against you in any way. However, if you choose not to furnish it, the owner is required to
note the race/national origin and sex of the individual applicants on the basis of visual observation and/or surname.”

 

[gjones77]

They're just covering their hind quarters, the .gov and states will often use any excuse to close down a club, I wouldn't see this as a reason to leave or get upset.

 

[drgrant]

Just because they ask it doesn't mean it's discrimination.

That said, I have to question the reasoning behind asking such a question....

If you really want to mess with them, check off "other" and then write in "Human" in the box.

-Mike

 

[Coyote33]

I say the fact that they are asking is bad enough. Doesn't it make more sense if they DON'T ask?

 

[Jose]

This is what happens when you make a deal with the devil.

 

[usnma]

I wouldn't see this as a reason to leave or get upset.

My reasons for leaving include having one 100yd range with five stations for rifles, pistol, trap/skeet. If they are doing trap or skeet the whole range is closed. If they are doing a plate shoot the whole range is closed.

They just recently constructed an indoor range, but its frangible ammo only. The hours are posted 9am-9pm, but everytime I go its locked. The club house is locked unless a club officer is present.

I do plan on making January's meeting (I dont make it to meetings) to see what the deal with the indoor range is. I guess I will be inquiring why they all of a sudden care what color someone is and whether they are hispanic or not.

 

[SteelShooter]

I say the fact that they are asking is bad enough. Doesn't it make more sense if they DON'T ask?

I think the .gov is driving this one, I have run across it several times for a number of different types of memberships. Little League even asks this question along with "Income Level".

 

[gjones77]

My reasons for leaving include having one 100yd range with five stations for rifles, pistol, trap/skeet. If they are doing trap or skeet the whole range is closed. If they are doing a plate shoot the whole range is closed.

They just recently constructed an indoor range, but its frangible ammo only. The hours are posted 9am-9pm, but everytime I go its locked. The club house is locked unless a club officer is present.

I do plan on making January's meeting (I dont make it to meetings) to see what the deal with the indoor range is. I guess I will be inquiring why they all of a sudden care what color someone is and whether they are hispanic or not.

I wasn't saying you shouldn't leave, there are always a myriad of reasons for leaving a particular club, and I agree the other reasons are good to do so.

I was just saying that I wouldn't use them asking for race as the only reasons.

 

[oceanblues]

I say the fact that they are asking is bad enough. Doesn't it make more sense if they DON'T ask?

I think it gives them more ammo if someone was to come in and say they were discriminating. They would be able to show how many ethnicities they've admitted and how many they've declined.

 

[usnma]

I wasn't saying you shouldn't leave, there are always a myriad of reasons for leaving a particular club, and I agree the other reasons are good to do so.

I was just saying that I wouldn't use them asking for race as the only reasons.

I hear ya, this was kinda "the icing on the cake."

 

[Len-2A Training]

Just because they ask it doesn't mean it's discrimination.

That said, I have to question the reasoning behind asking such a question....

If you really want to mess with them, check off "other" and then write in "Human" in the box.

-Mike

I did this on one of the first 4473s that asked for this info. I was pissed at the question. Turns out that BATFE wasn't impressed with my protest/humor and demanded that the FFL contact me to "correct" the entry.

I say the fact that they are asking is bad enough. Doesn't it make more sense if they DON'T ask?

Indeed I agree here.

This is what happens when you make a deal with the devil.

What deal? I'm not aware of any private club that is given gov't money to run the place, so what say should they have on the number of various protected groups that belong there?

I think the .gov is driving this one, I have run across it several times for a number of different types of memberships. Little League even asks this question along with "Income Level".

I can't speak for LL, but gun clubs don't get gov't funds to run them, so it should be a big "NOYFB" type answer to these intrusive questions.

I think it gives them more ammo if someone was to come in and say they were discriminating. They would be able to show how many ethnicities they've admitted and how many they've declined.

Show who? Why? Maybe a lawyer's dream to "have the info", just like everyone demanding your SSN for the most trivial transaction. Asking/demanding does not prove that one has a legitimate NEED for the info. I would resist.

 

[garandman]

It always pleases me to see people of color at Braintree R&P, as I like the idea that everyone is exercising their full rights of citizenship. Lord knows we've got penty of old white guys like me. Don't know if they ask, or not.

 

[KBCraig]

They receive money from fed.gov? It sounds like it, and if so, they are required to collect this information (as stated in the disclaimer), so they can show they're not discriminating.

 

[usnma]

They receive money from fed.gov? It sounds like it, and if so, they are required to collect this information (as stated in the disclaimer), so they can show they're not discriminating.

I dont know if they do or not. I'm not even sure what it would be for if they did. Its worth an email to the club president though.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Sometimes requesting race is no different that asking for height, weight and eye color - just part of a basic physical description.

Is asking weight on an LTC application discrimination against exceptionally stable shooting platforms?

 

[usnma]

Sometimes requesting race is no different that asking for height, weight and eye color - just part of a basic physical description.

Is asking weight on an LTC application discrimination against exceptionally stable shooting platforms?

Agreed, however this application does not request ones height, weight, or any other descriptives.

 

[Jose]

deleted

 

[Len-2A Training]

It always pleases me to see people of color at Braintree R&P, as I like the idea that everyone is exercising their full rights of citizenship. Lord knows we've got penty of old white guys like me. Don't know if they ask, or not.

No BR&P does NOT ask about race/ethnicity . . . but we have plenty of diversity in all categories which makes me proud . . . and doesn't require gov't intervention.

 

[Titan]

Get used to it.

Any organization that DOESN'T collect data on racial makeup is taking the risk of becoming a target of a lawsuit. They may even already be involved in a challenge to their membership practices (a reason for one club to collect the data while others don't).


I sure would rather we lived in the America I grew up in...free of political correctness and lawsuits at the drop of a hat.

.

 

[Jose]

Don't answer it.

 

[Jose]

Get used to it.

Any organization that DOESN'T collect data on racial makeup is taking the risk of becoming a target of a lawsuit. They may even already be involved in a challenge to their membership practices (a reason for one club to collect the data while others don't).


I sure would rather we lived in the America I grew up in...free of political correctness and lawsuits at the drop of a hat.

.

Joining a private club is not a protected activity from discrimination.

 

[Titan]

Joining a private club is not a protected activity from discrimination.

I understand what the laws say, it's just that I'm a big fan of 'freedom of association'.
.

 

[namedpipes]

Answer that you are an Eskimo or perhaps Aztec.

 

[Coyote33]

Sami.

 

[Jose]

I understand what the laws say, it's just that I'm a big fan of 'freedom of association'.
.

I am agreeing with you. AFAIK, there is NO law that prevents a private club from discriminating on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, or gender for membership

 

[Palladin]

I am agreeing with you. AFAIK, there is NO law that prevents a private club from discriminating on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, or gender for membership

Don't play golf

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=appslip/appJune03g&invol=1

 

[Titan]

I am agreeing with you. AFAIK, there is NO law that prevents a private club from discriminating on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, or gender for membership

Sorry...I misunderstood. I thought you were arguing that joining a private club was 'no excuse' for discrimination.

.

 

[terraformer]

Don't play golf

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=appslip/appJune03g&invol=1

There is a difference.

The Club makes its facilities available for hire by the general public for social functions

This was used to claim it was a public place, not solely a private club. The club did not appeal that determination. If the above mentioned gun club opens for public access (NES shoots...) then any lawsuit may have some merit to the applicability of discrimination. A lot of clubs have their own version of suitability wrt membership. It is highly likely they denied membership to a minority, for whatever reason, and now need to prove that they do not discriminate based on the protected class reasons. You can deny a minority, but if you deny minorities at a higher rate, this fact is generally considered de facto evidence of bias.

 

[Jose]

A lot of clubs have their own version of suitability wrt membership. It is highly likely they denied membership to a minority, for whatever reason, and now need to prove that they do not discriminate based on the protected class reasons. You can deny a minority, but if you deny minorities at a higher rate, this fact is generally considered de facto evidence of bias.

If a club is, in fact, a truly private club, they are under no obligation to prove lack of bias or disprove the opposite.

One one would need the definition of "public accomodation". I know clubs where the public is welcome to specific events such as sanctioned matches, but they cannot pay a fee to use the facilities in general unless they become members. That, IMO, is not a "public accomodation".

 

[strangenh]

If a club is, in fact, a truly private club, they are under no obligation to prove lack of bias or disprove the opposite.

I am guessing they are claiming tax exempt status as a social club (501(c)(7)) or some other part of 501(c).

See e.g.:
http://www.clubtax.com/article_identifying_and_recording_nonmember_income.html
http://thismatter.com/money/tax/irs/p557/4-other-section-501(c)-organizations.htm#tq39

Your earlier comment regarding making "a deal with the devil" may indeed be apt.

ETA: terraformer has the general gist with regard to public accommodation issues; see the second link for organizational issues with regard to discrimination and getting the blessed IRS determination letter.