Moron downrange photographer

[cekim]

A day late and a dollar short clicked the link in whatever this thread was about is GONZO so apparently it must have been good!

"let me 'splain... There is no time, I will summup" -Inigo Montoya

Dumbass crouching with camera on berm between target stands a few feet apart in front of a good size line of pistol firing trainees aiming at the targets immediately beside him not too far away (say 10-15 yards IIRC).

 

[GSG]

Oh yeah, I wrote this "school" a email asking why ( politely ) this was allowed and encouraged. I received a 3 word response from "MR" Yeager. It was as follows, " GO F$CK YOURSELF"

Sounds like a classy establishment he's running there.

 

[RI_John]

Sounds like a classy establishment he's running there.

It's not for the likes of you! It's for switched on warriors only! Very exclusive!

 

[kevin9]

This practice is 100% normal if you go to a real hi speed school...

In principle I do understand what you mean and can see that there would be places where such practices are necessary for the level of training being provided; however,

...I received a 3 word response from "MR" Yeager. It was as follows, " GO F$CK YOURSELF"

IMNSHO this response from the owner himself (and what I've read about him) says Tactical Response is not one of them.

 

[terraformer]

A day late and a dollar short clicked the link in whatever this thread was about is GONZO so apparently it must have been good!

Damn. I was going to try and save it too for just this reason and I forgot to.

 

[careful34]

"Page not found" but I'm sure it was impressive.

Edited to add: Just a guess, was it this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY0ueR-AEw4

 

[namedpipes]

"Page not found" but I'm sure it was impressive.

Edited to add: Just a guess, was it this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY0ueR-AEw4

The video has more life expectancy than the photographer.

 

[Cabinetman]

That's it. That video will be out there forever, now. I'm going to even use it, amoung others, when I have my next pistol class. I'm going to tell them that this is what they can expect when they go to the range for the first time. Let's see who the "warriors" are! LOL

Rome

 

[RI_John]

The video has more life expectancy than the photographer.

indeed!

 

[Eta-Carinae]

irrespective of the incompetence...

White shirt guy that does the surroundings check.

The last round he fires before he does the surroundings check looks and sounds wrong - no weapon report, no recoil, and no slide action.

It's at 0:13 in the youtube vid and it looks like a round flies out with finger-flick levels of energy.

Then, I think, he stands, does a mag switch and tries to shoot again without resetting the safe action.

Am I seeing that right?

 

[M1911]

"Page not found" but I'm sure it was impressive.

Edited to add: Just a guess, was it this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY0ueR-AEw4

That is it. Mr. Yeager is learning a very important lesson about posting things to the internet.

 

[M1911]

If you want to hear about the views of this from the "real warriors," just join Yeager's forum and read their thread: http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/998104881/m/163102852/p/1

 

[JRyan]

If you want to hear about the views of this from the "real warriors," just join Yeager's forum and read their thread: http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/998104881/m/163102852/p/1

I don't want to create an account more than I want to hear the views of these "warriors".

Cliff notes?

 

[M1911]

I don't want to create an account more than I want to hear the views of these "warriors".

Cliff notes?

I haven't read most of them. Here's a typical one from an instructor, who has clearly drunk the cool-aid:

Do you want the first time you send a round into a target(threat) in close proximity to another person to be in a training class/controlled environment or at the 7-11 when the badguy has his arm around your wife's neck? It can be an extremely steep learning curve for those who choose the latter.

If you train to use your gun in the 360 degree range we call the world, you better be prepared to shoot around the good guys. If not, sell your gun on Gunbroker and carry a can of pepper spray.

I have complete faith in the students we have instructed to stand forward of their muzzles, and the responsibility as their instructor to have them leave our range fully confident to perform what we have taught them off of the range in a dynamic environment full of moving/screaming 'no-shoots'.

I now find it difficult to operate at facilities slavishly committed to the 180 and feel that I am somehow being treated like an incompetent or child, and that the curriculum is lacking or incomplete.

The 180 is another range rule, not a rule of safe gunhandling. Not pointing your gun at something you are not willing to destroy is an example of safe gunhandling, and if your instructor is 3 feet to the side of your target, engage your target without pointing it at him. If you are incapable of performing this simple task, then you shouldn't be handling guns on any range.

The basic tone of most responses was internet chest-beating about how they are HSLD, and this is the type of HSLD training you need to survive a gunfight, etc., etc. In other words, it was a willy-waving contest.

 

[cekim]

The basic tone of most responses was internet chest-beating about how they are HSLD, and this is the type of HSLD training you need to survive a gunfight, etc., etc. In other words, it was a willy-waving contest.

Ugh...

What a steaming pile of "switched-on" garbage...

If you want to get shot at on purpose, go find yourself a 3rd world country at war and get in there... Somewhere like Chicago...

The crap these guys are slinging is like saying "the only way to prepare to kill a man is to kill a few men"... [sad2]

Bottom line, training for something other than shooting at one fixed target in front of you is great and I agree, much better than the buy it and stuff it in the bed-side-stand (locked of course to remain in compliance with MA storage laws[sad2]) approach too many take to home/self defense...

 

[JRyan]

I haven't read most of them. Here's a typical one from an instructor, who has clearly drunk the cool-aid:



The basic tone of most responses was internet chest-beating about how they are HSLD, and this is the type of HSLD training you need to survive a gunfight, etc., etc. In other words, it was a willy-waving contest.

I see, and good grief.

 

[namedpipes]

I wonder if the students will get their money back:

White Shirt: "MR. Yeager, none of my friends will talk to me anymore. Can I get a refund?"

Yeager: "Go f*** yourself!" (naughty word color shifted to protect our virgin eyes)

 

[Cabinetman]

First of all, what's wrong with "Willy-Waving"?

Second of all, can any of us imagine a show like "60 minutes" or "frontline" getting a hold of this tape and interviewing the instructor? Can you imagine the bravado and sanctimonious answers he'd produce? Can you imagine the parallels the general-no-brainer public would then draw between him and the other 99% of shooters across the fruited plain? Can you imagine the current crop of ignorant congresscritters and senators watching this short clip and furiously writing legislation condemning the ENTIRE fraternity of shooters and enacting law after law against.....well....bascially you name it???

I can't and I hope to God it doesn't happen but something tells me that it's going to happen and it won't be pretty. This guy has put us ALL into a terrible situation. I don't give a rat's patute about his classes. But, because it's now public and because he's been shown to be callus with human life, we are all going to pay if it becomes public. And, while the liberal left reporters have abandoned having to work for a living, trust me when I tell you that if they catch wind of this, they’ll feel a stirring in their loins to get out and do some research on this guy and his 'class' and it'll be in every station they can sell it to. Just what we need.

Rome

 

[Jose]

First of all, what's wrong with "Willy-Waving"?

Second of all, can any of us imagine a show like "60 minutes" or "frontline" getting a hold of this tape and interviewing the instructor? Can you imagine the bravado and sanctimonious answers he'd produce? Can you imagine the parallels the general-no-brainer public would then draw between him and the other 99% of shooters across the fruited plain? Can you imagine the current crop of ignorant congresscritters and senators watching this short clip and furiously writing legislation condemning the ENTIRE fraternity of shooters and enacting law after law against.....well....bascially you name it???

I can't and I hope to God it doesn't happen but something tells me that it's going to happen and it won't be pretty. This guy has put us ALL into a terrible situation. I don't give a rat's patute about his classes. But, because it's now public and because he's been shown to be callus with human life, we are all going to pay if it becomes public. And, while the liberal left reporters have abandoned having to work for a living, trust me when I tell you that if they catch wind of this, they’ll feel a stirring in their loins to get out and do some research on this guy and his 'class' and it'll be in every station they can sell it to. Just what we need.

Rome

Some nazi freak shoots up the holocaust museum and nothing happens. Yet you think this video will bring on down the heat of the world on all shooters?

Whatever...........

 

[dwarven1]

Some nazi freak shoots up the holocaust museum and nothing happens. Yet you think this video will bring on down the heat of the world on all shooters?

I can see it. Our president has made it VERY clear that he doesn't give a rat's ass for the Jews or Israel... and the media has obviously picked up on it. However, we all know that BO and his entire staff have a real hard-on for gun owners... and this makes us look bad to most people.

So yes, I think it could potentially be a real sh*tstorm.

 

[Brother Mark]

Some nazi freak shoots up the holocaust museum and nothing happens. Yet you think this video will bring on down the heat of the world on all shooters?

We're I politically active for the other side I'd be all over it.

 

[Kalahari]

I don't know if this has already been posted, but Yeager made a response video:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...responds-to-the-controversial-training-video/

Some of his arguments are pretty idiotic - especially the car analogy. It is, quite simply, logically flawed.

However, I do see a point he makes that Jose has already alluded to; in real life, it is unlikely that when we need to draw and fire the circumstances will be even similar to what we see at the gun range. This type of training only brings that realism one step further, and thereby almost guaranteeing a better outcome. More realistic training would (in my mind, at least) lead to better results when it comes down to it.

Is it dangerous? Yes, clearly. But given the goal of the training, I'm not jumping out of my seat in anger. Real life is dangerous, too. Especially when we have to draw our firearms to protect ourselves or our loved ones.


And no, I wouldn't stand down range. I don't trust anyone that much.

 

[BigBird]

The original link posted , no longer works.
They must have withdrawn it.

I have to check in more often.

 

[Kalahari]

You may see it here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/17/highly-controversial-training-video/

 

[Jose]

I have a question for all those guardians of our "image".

Why haven't you stormed another thread on this forum where a police body armor vest is shown being penetrated from one end through the other by a handgun's bullet? WTF do you geniuses think antis would do with it?

Is it because the video's author is a member here? Is there some other reason that I cannot fathom yet?

For the record, I am not opposed to, offended by, or otherwise bothered by the video that I am referring to. I simply could care less what antis think. I am only pointing this out to see if you guys are just selective in your "outrage".

 

[bpm990d]

The other side makes things up anyway.

I wouldn't worry about it becoming the centerpiece of Brady attacks.

B

 

[center442]

I have a question for all those guardians of our "image".

Why haven't you stormed another thread on this forum where a police body armor vest is shown being penetrated from one end through the other by a handgun's bullet? WTF do you geniuses think antis would do with it?

Is it because the video's author is a member here? Is there some other reason that I cannot fathom yet?

For the record, I am not opposed to, offended by, or otherwise bothered by the video that I am referring to. I simply could care less what antis think. I am only pointing this out to see if you guys are just selective in your "outrage".

I did not criticize the post about body armor, nor the poster, as I saw no reason to do so. There was no inherent danger in shooting an inert object, (the vest) any more then there would be if someone fired into piles of newspaper to test penetration. I saw no violation(s) of accepted safety rules in the post you reference. If someone had been wearing the vest in the experiment then I would have found it unacceptable.

The explanation given by Mr. Yeager, that training should be realistic, I can agree with to some extent. I have yet to hear from Mr. Yeager how violating basic safety rules to get a better camera shot will enhance anyone's capabilities in handling a firearm. Having that cameraman downrange while students were shooting was, IMHO, a stupid thing to do, and publishing it for the world to see does not do any good. I would have been a little less critical of Mr. Yeager if he had made a strong disclaimer that the behavior was not safe and was being done under carefully controlled conditions for dramatic effect. I saw/heard no such disclaimer.

I have no issue with shooting inanimate objects; I will not endorse doing so with a person standing next to said object(s) without a damn good reason to do so.

 

[RI_John]

I have a question for all those guardians of our "image".

Why haven't you stormed another thread on this forum where a police body armor vest is shown being penetrated from one end through the other by a handgun's bullet? WTF do you geniuses think antis would do with it?

Is it because the video's author is a member here? Is there some other reason that I cannot fathom yet?

For the record, I am not opposed to, offended by, or otherwise bothered by the video that I am referring to. I simply could care less what antis think. I am only pointing this out to see if you guys are just selective in your "outrage".

Jesus!!!! I almost had a heart attack! I think I agree with Jose!!

I love EC's video and would like to get a used vest myself and stab it, shoot it, etc. to do my own testing, however I can see Jose's point that in the hands of antis this could look very bad- i.e. without knowing anything about anything, this could be twisted into "Gun owners practicing killing cops!" etc.

 

[Lucas McCain]

This guy is a real asshat, You dont train to kill a person, you train to be proficient in the use of a firearm for your defence. If it ever actually happened, you would do what you had to do to survive. I highly doubt that any of that so called live human target training would enter into your mind in the split second that you decide to draw and fire.

This kind of thing is what make the sheep nervous about the evil people who train to murder.

 

[Kalahari]

I did not criticize the post about body armor, nor the poster, as I saw no reason to do so. There was no inherent danger in shooting an inert object, (the vest) any more then there would be if someone fired into piles of newspaper to test penetration. I saw no violation(s) of accepted safety rules in the post you reference. If someone had been wearing the vest in the experiment then I would have found it unacceptable.

That isn't the point. Jose is (correct me if I'm wrong, Jose) saying that the video of a handgun being capable of blowing completely through body armor could itself be used as anti-gun ammunition. Something along the lines of "Look how strong their handguns are! Even body armor won't protect you! Get these guns off the streets! Protect our police officers!"

I will not endorse doing so with a person standing next to said object(s) without a damn good reason to do so.

This is my main beef with Yeager. I understand his point that we want to strive to make training realistic. However, it seems unnecessary to have a photographer down range because he holds zero value within the tactical training. Certainly they could perform training drills with persons down range that would be more tactically relevant. That's why I think the whole thing was idiotic - the photographer served no real purpose within the training. It was an absolutely unnecessary risk. But I wouldn't say the same for all scenarios where someone is down range.