More cowardice and inertia

[BuggsBunny]

Eddie Coyle said:

Whether I'd intervene of not would depend entirely on how big the hammer guy was.

I know the guy's size is of some importance, but it seems to me to be less important than some other factors, such as how preoccupied he is with the attack on the victim, what kind of agility and coordination he has, and what hard, sharp objects are at hand that might be used as weapons.

I guess if the guy were tiny, then it might justifiably raise your confidence level a bit, but as for me, anybody except a dwarf would make me think twice about a head-on attack. As I said above, if the attacker was sufficiently absorbed in his work that you could get the drop on him with a crippling blow from something heavy and hard, then things would be different.

But facing someone with a hammer, even a small guy, if he were reasonably strong and fit, gives me the willies. A good swing with a hammer, even from a small person (who may, incidentally, be nimbler than a large, oafish type) can shatter bone (and your chances of prevailing) in the blink of an eye.

Really bad stuff all around. Give me numbers, distractions, and tools.

 

[Arioch]

Given the amount of grief one would likely get from the police, I'd be reluctant to initiate any offensive action against the BG. Especially with any kind of weapon, from chemical, through impact, to lethal.

 

[Viking Kitten]

Of course, if I thought he was coming after me (and I was unarmed - which would be unlikely) I'd go after him like my life depended on it.

And of course, your life would be dependent on how you reacted.

Scary, scary. I'd like to think I'd have at least tried to dial 911 on my cell phone...but you do never know unless it's happening to you.

 

[packingungal]

Fixed it for you

You are absolutley correct though.

M-m-m smells good....thanks!

 

[tuna]

I don't know how I'd react. I may secretly be the Lone Ranger who rides in to fight injustice wherever it is found, but the thinking part of me says, "I've gone through a lot of @sspain to be allowed the right (I know, I know) to adequately defend myself and my family - if someone is naive enough to belive a call to 911 or a whistle will help them, God bless and good night".

If someone attacks me or my family, all bets are off - I will meet force with the appropriate level of force to stop the threat.

If someone attacks someone else, who is too lazy or complacent to defend themself, I'm not risking my well being, or my family's well being (to include financial) to help a sheep.

I know that a lot of people are disarmed by thier chiefs in this state - but when I only had a neutered license, I still made the decision to carry OC so I had at least SOME defensive capability besides my fists.

 

[jhblaze1]

Given the amount of grief one would likely get from the police, I'd be reluctant to initiate any offensive action against the BG. Especially with any kind of weapon, from chemical, through impact, to lethal.

The BG would have had a gun in his face if I was there. You're allowed to protect others in jeopardy of losing their life and that includes using deadly force. I'd feel worse if the victim died or became a carrot because I chose not to act for selfish reasons.

 

[vellnueve]

If I saw a chance, I would definitely have intervened with a heavy blow to the back of the guy's head or neck.

 

[Nickle]

or their keys.

Keys are a better weapon than most folks think they are. Have some nice sharp edged keys, and rake them across your assailants face (and eyes).

Definitely no substitute for a handgun, but better than nothing.

 

[Nickle]

There were these bystanders...what kind? Women, children, men? As usual these news articles leave out lots of information, and write just enough to stir up the pot.

If you live in the right place, what difference does it make?

Of course, you have to fully understand where I live. Then you would know that even some of the women and children would jump in and take this guy out. Yeah, and it's no BS. Ask a few folks that know the area and people. Like, say, Ross. He knows a couple of teenagers that could and would step up. He know a couple of women that would, too.

Trying to kill someone with a hammer, while in a crowd is almost a certain "death sentence" up my way. The state doesn't have a death penalty, but the crowd might just pummel you to death with their fists.

 

[Fooped]

I would have done everything in my power to stop this freak from attacking this sleeping passenger.

And I mean that most sincerely.

 

[mark056]

There were these bystanders...what kind? Women, children, men? As usual these news articles leave out lots of information, and write just enough to stir up the pot.

They all must have been recent immigrants from the United Kingdom or maybe just British tourists visiting the colonies, because they behaved EXACTLY the way police officials tell the subjects of Her Majesty to act when witnessing a crime.

Mark L.

 

[jhblaze1]

I would have done everything in my power to stop this freak from attacking this sleeping passenger.

And I mean that most sincerely.

I would have yelled at him to stop. When he turned around he'd see I already had my gun (if I owned guns: I don't, they're bad) drawn and pointed at his head. If he took one step in my direction with a hammer, I'd drop my hammer. Done.

 

[RG617]

You'd have to shoot him pretty low, and no one likes having to try and avoid center mass on purpose. That's for the armchair quarterbacks who don't understand that you can't always "wing" the bad guy in the real world. The floor is your only backstop since getting an angle that exits the train is most likely a no-go, and it's a heavy duty risk firing down the length of a train no matter how confident you are in your skills. One miss or a shot that goes clean through and you're risking some serious collateral damage. I wonder if the MBTA cops go over that at all in training, or if those spending lots of time on the trains carry specific loads like air marshals. Any on here?

 

[pbearperry]

Was it an unregistered hammer or (Gasp) a black hammer?

 

[Scrivener]

One of those military-style "High-caliber" hammers, no doubt.

 

[drgrant]

I wonder if the MBTA cops go over that at all in training, or if those spending lots of time on the trains carry specific loads like air marshals. Any on here?

MBTA PD number one course is- how to NOT be anywhere where something bad might happen. I've ridden the T on and off for a whole ton of years
and the only transit cop I've ever seen was screaming up I93 for some bizarre reason.

-Mike

 

[depicts]

I think this was a plastic hammer, and it was not caught on X Ray before he entered the train. These illegal, non-detectable, homicidal-hammers have been a great danger for a long time. I think you need a safety course and COP permission to carry one in Massachusetts.

 

[Erebus]

I'll bet it was one of these evil hammers!! I have one and I have to keep it locked up so it doesn't attack people. Look at all the black on it, that's how you identify it as an evil assault hammer.

It even has that ultra evil magnetic nail set for really ratcheting up the body count.

 

[38supermatt]

"Ramsey criticized other riders for standing by when the assailant entered the train with his 5-year-old son, directed the boy to a seat, calmly pulled a hammer from a backpack and attacked a man dozing in a nearby seat.

At least 10 other riders were in the car when the attack occurred last week, yet no one interfered as the man repeatedly struck the victim in the train car and later out on a platform"

I don't blame them for doing nothing. I heard just before the attacker struck he said:

STOP

Hammertime!

 

[Exousia]

I would have done everything in my power to stop this freak from attacking this sleeping passenger.

And I mean that most sincerely.

I have seen your snarl. I believe you would do that.

 

[Fooped]

I have seen your snarl. I believe you would do that.

Thank you (I think ).


Obviously there's a large number of variables at play here:

1: Direction the assailant is facing.
2: Path to assailant from GG's start position.
3: Tools to work with (Mace/OC, knife, gun etc)
4: The general "barometer" of the people on the train.
5: Potential collateral damage (Mace or OC hitting a non-target or incapacitating yourself, errant shot placement etc)

Without going all tough-guy on this VERY serious subject, I just feel very strongly that I couldn't stand by and let this happen. I am very confident in my grappling and Jiu-Jitsu skills, and if given an opportunity I would have tackled him and disabled him very seriously. This course of action would have only worked if I could get to him before he could get to me with the hammer (Were he facing away from me, a takedown and choke/jointlock can be applied against a much larger and fiercely struggling opponent within a few seconds). Martial arts or not, I do NOT want to get into a fist fight with a wacko with a hammer.

Were this avenue not to present itself, I would move up the force ladder until I felt confident that that scenario could be solved without harm to myself or innocents.

Once again, not throwing out the "I'd kick this guy's ass 'cause I'm all that" by any means, as I'm just a regular guy with some training under his belt. I just feel that doing nothing in this situation is not the right thing to do. I believe that others on this board feel (and would do) the same.

 

[Fsorrent]

"We... we really discourage self-help here" - Assmuppet General Martha Coakley


Can you put this into English so that the rest of us can understand it?

Banning guns = BAD!

 

[WILDCATT]

defence

people have been brainwashed to avoid getting involved.if you get involved you could be thrown in jail yourself.police often dont want you on their turf.it has happened.so they will charge you with something.
if your confronted do you shoot or not first you have to think of the conseqenses,then you have to think of several other results.in the end you do nothing.

 

[Major Blood]

These threads always have a way of bringing out the "armchair commando" in everyone.

Point blank, if some loon with a hammer started smacking somebody on the head in front of you, smart money is on 99% of you doing absolutely nothing. Show of hands, how many of you have witnessed an assault in progress and have stepped in to assist? How many of you have actually drawn your weapon in (or even been within ten miles of) one of the self defense scenarios you like to throw around when listing your reasons for wanting to carry? I bet the percentage is extremely small, if any.

Fact is, and here's a hard pill to swallow, most people are cowards. Even moreso those that like to talk about what they'd do and talk shit about those who care more about their own safety and the prosperity of their families than they do about some stranger, especially when they don't know the details of the situation. Am I saying it's best to not give a shit, always go for self? Of course not, but the reality is my family is waiting for me to come home tonight, as I'm sure yours' are, and I'm not going to put my life on the line when for all I know the "victim" might have stabbed MC Hammer last week or who knows what else...

Just my .02, your mileage may and most likely will vary.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Personally, I would have gone into a crouch while simultaneously drawing my Sig .40 and my Gerber pocket knife. In one fluid movement I would have stabbed his right foot with my left hand, effectively pinning it in place, while, with my right hand I would have smashed him over the head with the butt of my .40 when he bent down to free his foot. Then, with him incapacitated and pinned to the floor, I would have rendered first aid to the victim, but, like, only if she's hot. Or if she's really a she. You know? Anyway, That's what I woulda done. Anyone who wouldn't do that is a P@ssy.

 

[Jose]

The BG would have had a gun in his face if I was there. You're allowed to protect others in jeopardy of losing their life and that includes using deadly force. I'd feel worse if the victim died or became a carrot because I chose not to act for selfish reasons.

If I had a handgun on me in this situation I would have simply shot hammer boy to the ground. No warning.

Even without a handgun, if I have the element of suprise I will jump on him and knife him till he stops. If it means cutting his neck wide open, so be it.

 

[mark056]

These threads always have a way of bringing out the "armchair commando" in everyone.

Point blank, if some loon with a hammer started smacking somebody on the head in front of you, smart money is on 99% of you doing absolutely nothing. ..Fact is, and here's a hard pill to swallow, most people are cowards. Even more so those that like to talk about what they'd do and talk shit about those who care more about their own safety and the prosperity of their families than they do about some stranger, especially when they don't know the details of the situation...and I'm not going to put my life on the line when for all I know the "victim" might have stabbed MC Hammer last week or who knows what else...

I can't say that your wrong, but I am not sure if you have the percentages right. I think 99 percent is too high. It is difficult to say within certainty what one would actually do when it is no longer an intellectual abstraction and I get very skeptical myself when people have a ready and absolute answer, and unless they have been there, it is more "talk the talk, than walk the walk." Generally speaking, however, it boils down to how one is trained especially with regard to overcoming one's fears, and how they have been trained in both armed and unarmed combat, along with certain personality traits. Trying to determine what personality traits are a good predictive indicator on how people will perform in a stressful combative situation is rather inexact and not always reliable. Then too, there is the problem of consistency. Some people will fight in some situations, but in other situations will remain passive. In WWII the effectiveness of a combat infantryman was considered about four months before self-preservation kicked in and a soldier was less likely to be an aggressive combatant. When the SHTF in a violent encounter, it is more about reacting than a pre-programmed intellectual response.

There are variables too, in responding as (until the moment of truth) or reacting as a third party. Just blowing away the perp unequivocally might seem like the right thing to do, until one finds out that the victim raped the perp's three year old daughter, for instance. (certainly not the case in the events as related in the original post here) From a legal standpoint, of course the actions of the perp in that hypothetical situation are still not justified, but based on countless posts that I have read here, morally many, if not the majority, of those on the Forum would then more than likely be on the side of the perp.

As always Major Blood, you have written a most interesting and provocative post.

Mark L.

 

[fubar]

" Why's that guy got a hammer ? .. does he know Sleeping Guy ? WHoa!! Holy Crap ! Did I really just see ... Damn ! He hit him again ! That guy must be totally Effed up ... This is bad.
Alert ! Alert ! Draw gun now ... thumb safety.. front sight ... Should I shoot this guy ... I think he's dead ... "

Elapsed time : 3 seconds.

 

[goingback5]

Nothing worse then monday morning quarter back's and armchair commandos.I remember a thread not too long ago here,where people were saying that they wouldnt help someone who was bleeding in fear of aids, maybe they were thinking along those lines.

 

[MaverickNH]

Without a firearm or OC, how many of us REALLY would have gone after that guy swinging a hammer? {/Rhetorical] I don't mean how many SAY they would.

With a hickory Canemaster cane in hand, I'd have taken the guy down with one whack. Gun - maybe no. How much do I want to pay in money and time to get involved? Depends on my psyche at the given moment. In Texas - for sure. In MA - likley not.

With OC - unless a 32oz bear spray unit, likley not as well.

My drive toward self-defense is self and family. Again, if the sense of rage engages - I'm on it - even if I have to pay later. When Good Samaritans cease being victims of the State in MA --- different story.