Massachusetts Bill HD.4420 "An act to modernize gun Laws"

walk with me here ... ;-)

the point is to get across what this bill does to you as a citizen of massachuetts *right now*. even if you are anti-gun, the message needs to be this goes too far, and even the most committed (or should be) leftist needs to understand this can also happen to them in other jurisdictions.

civil rights are civil rights

I get that, which was why my note to my rep started out with "I wish to take this opportunity to urge your rejection of the civil-rights restrictions exemplified by HD4420, and to use your influence with your fellow representatives to stand up for my rights, as well as the rights of other LTC holders here in MA."

Yes. That's the philosophical argument against this bill, and it's easy for you and I to understand. But TPTB don't GAF about philosophy; they care about power, and how they can wield it. They've been pissed about companies sending gun parts into MA for a long time; "ghost guns" is their excuse to try to stop them.
 
Not sure if serious. Those guys are the most annoying, whining, weird characters, and make me want to shut off my computer. Words cannot express how stupid they sound.



FIFY, and never heard of the "Liberal Gun Club". ???

I get that, which was why my note to my rep started out with "I wish to take this opportunity to urge your rejection of the civil-rights restrictions exemplified by HD4420, and to use your influence with your fellow representatives to stand up for my rights, as well as the rights of other LTC holders here in MA."

Yes. That's the philosophical argument against this bill, and it's easy for you and I to understand. But TPTB don't GAF about philosophy; they care about power, and how they can wield it. They've been pissed about companies sending gun parts into MA for a long time; "ghost guns" is their excuse to try to stop them.
you are right.

that's a message that is lost on both the left and the right right now. there are also people on both sides that understand it needs to come back.
 
Not sure if serious. Those guys are the most annoying, whining, weird characters, and make me want to shut off my computer. Words cannot express how stupid they sound.



FIFY, and never heard of the "Liberal Gun Club". ???
you'd i'm sure be shocked by the fact that there is a socialist rifle association, then ...

 
From today’s MASSter List
Statehouse news service


Gun owners push back as Senate stymies process on new reform bill
Today's News​
Jim Wallace, executive director of the Gun Owners Action League, is taking a page out of the books of state senators when it comes to the Legislature’s latest take on gun reform.

“This is the first time in my entire career where I won’t be offering any kind of amendment to a bill dealing with gun reform,” Wallace told MASSterList.

That’s because Wallace and his members reject the legislation in its entirety. The bill, now the subject of procedural contention between the House and Senate, has stirred anger among the state’s 600,000 licensed gun owners — many of whom would “turn into felons overnight” should this bill become law, Wallace said.

Rep. Michael Day and gun control advocates have pitched this latest reform legislation as an attempt to crack down on legal loopholes — like the one allowing gun owners to legally purchase assault rifles manufactured before the state ban went in place in the 1990s. It also attempts to crack down on manufacturing and so-called “ghost guns.”

But Second Amendment activists and police departments around the state are pushing back on the bill they say over-regulates and even criminalizes law-abiding gun owners. Law enforcement groups take particular issue with a provision that would make it illegal to carry firearms into many public settings — even for off-duty law enforcement officers.

“This bill is simply a tantrum over the Bruen decision,” Wallace said, referencing the U.S. Supreme Court decision last year striking down New York’s century-old public carry licensing law, setting a precedent that lifted most restrictions for gun owners seeking licenses to carry.

Senators have been tight-lipped on their reasons for erecting procedural roadblocks blocking the bill’s progress, but correspondence shared by Bay State gun owners on Reddit might shed some light.

Senate Ways and Means Chairman Michael Rodrigues told one voter, “I share your belief that this bill will not make Massachusetts any safer than the existing gun legislation already on the books… I have always been a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and have consistently maintained an “A” rating from the Gun Owners Action League.”

Weymouth Sen. Patrick O’Connor, a Republican, told one constituent, “There are many sections of this bill that I believe are unconstitutional… We should be focusing on the illegal sale and possession of firearms in Massachusetts rather than further restricting constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens.”

Sen. Ryan Fattman, a Republican, also opposes the bill, according to one of his staffers.

Democratic Sen. Jason Lewis told a concerned constituent, “I believe that any gun legislation we consider must make our communities safer without violating any constitutional rights.”​
 
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walk with me here ... ;-)

the point is to get across what this bill does to you as a citizen of massachuetts *right now*. even if you are anti-gun, the message needs to be this goes too far, and even the most committed (or should be) leftist needs to understand this can also happen to them in other jurisdictions.

civil rights are civil rights
There are a lot of people who will spend lots of time and energy trying to adhere to the "law".

The thing is, as you make law abiding behavior more and more of a burden on the individual - some people at least will just stop doing it. Once you reach that break point you start to understand that being a good person or good citizen or whatever, doesn't really have much to do with adhering to the laws.

There was a book written a while back about how laws in this c***ry have proliferated so much , that the average citizen is actually already committing a felony a day. Most people don't know this, so when a bill like the one we're talking about here shows up, they get all peeved off and say " you're making me into a felon!!".

You were technically already a felon you dipshit , you just didn't realize it. Now you do. So now the question becomes - what are you going to do about it?
 
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If you want the letters in a pile on a table with a state police patch to show up in the news that's fine.
Anything including a person's home address is an overt threat and the left has the monopoly on media/government accepted political violence.

While I completely agree, it seems to be perfectly acceptable to the left:

 
There are a lot of people who will spend lots of time and energy trying to adhere to the "law".

The thing is, as you make law abiding behavior more and more if a burden on the individual - some of at least will just stop doing it. Once you reach that break point you start to understand that being a good person or good citizen or whatever, doesn't really much to do with adhering to the laws.

There was a book written a while back about how laws in this c***ry have proliferated so much , that the average citizen is actually already committing a felony a day. Most people don't know this, so when a bill like the one we're talking about here shows up, they get all peeved off and say " you're making me into a felon!!".

You were technically already a felon you dipshit , you just didn't realize it. Now you do. So now the question becomes - what are you going to do about it?
an interesting question.

one which we all eventually answer, one way or the other.,
 
good evening and understand how youth demographics will change destiny if republicans can't figure out how to detoxify the brand with younger people. us boomers are only going to be around for so long, it's not like i've got some great wisdom in how that gets accomplished, there are a lot of variables, but i do look at political maps.


Beware of recommending Republicans read and take any advice at all from the Huffpost. Huffpost is 100% not on our side. 🤔
 
The thing is, as you make law abiding behavior more and more if a burden on the individual - some of at least will just stop doing it. Once you reach that break point you start to understand that being a good person or good citizen or whatever, doesn't really much to do with adhering to the laws.

100% this.

That's an important day in any citizen's life, I think, and some of them never get there.
 
Beware of recommending Republicans read and take any advice at all from the Huffpost. Huffpost is 100% not on our side.

it was the first thing that came up on the google box. i'm generally ok with taking information, filtering the source, from "the enemy", that's just sigint.
 
Here is a follow up email to a phone conversation I had with Representative Haggarty. He called me back after I left a message with his aide last week and was open minded and genuine. I think he was surprised by some of the things I brought up. He was patient and respectful to me so I tried to be in return. Bring on the haters who think I was to polite and didn't hit him hard enough. Sometimes the message gets lost if the delivery is to loud.

Representative Haggerty,

I want to thank you for calling me back and spending time with me on the phone yesterday. We spoke for over 40 minutes, and we covered a lot of topics in the proposed bill. As I stated I believe the idea of the bill is to keep illegal firearms and long guns out of the hands of those who are not licensed to own them. This bill does not speak to that goal and should be rethought. To that end I will highlight some of the topics that we spoke about yesterday.

Number of active firearm licenses and Training requirements
Data about firearms licensing and transactions

I said there were around 600,000 licenses in Massachusetts you said you were told there were about 100,000. The accurate number is 541,956. This data can be found at Mass.gov link about and I exported an Excel spread sheet of the data for you study. In fact, there over 2200 licensees in Woburn. Roughly 10% of the adult population of the City has a firearms license. This bill would affect every one of them.

With this number and the wording of Section 56 live fire requirement there is no infrastructure in Mass. to support this requirement. The bill proposes anyone who has an FID or LTC dating back to June 1, 1998 is exempt from the live fire requirement. That is a small proportion of license holders and growing smaller every day. That means that roughly 100,000 live fire tests need to be conducted and documented the first year this bill goes into effect. This would grind the licensing process to a halt. Which is what I fear is the intent of this section.

Also, under training the idea that an LTC holder should be required to participate in police style active shooter training is not well thought out and should be deleted.

Minors with firearms

As you can see below this specifically mentions rifles and shotguns not pistols or revolvers. The pistol team at Mass Rifle and all others across the state would be adversely affected by this section.
1531 A person may furnish a minor under the age of 18 with a firearm for hunting,
1532 instruction and participation in shooting sports and a minor under the age of 15 with a rifle or
1533 shotgun for hunting or target shooting, provided that the minor is under the immediate
1534 supervision of a person holding a license to carry or long gun permit, or a duly commissioned
1535 officer, noncommissioned officer or enlisted member of the united states army, navy, marine
1536 corps, air force or coast guard, or the national guard or military service of the commonwealth or
1537 reserve components thereof, while in performance of their duty.

Assault Weapon vs Assault-Style

I want to state that I do not agree with the definition of any firearm with the term assault weapon this redefinition is very problematic. It basically renders any semi-automatic rile or shotgun into an assault style weapon. An example that I mentioned yesterday is the Ruger 10/22. It is very common to swap out the stock and install a thumb hole stock to add stability for shooting. This changes nothing about the rate of fire or what is fired.

Barrel Shroud – Every rifle stock extends forward of the receiver so that the shooters hand does not meet the hot barrel. What is the definition of a barrel shroud?

For a further discussion I will draw on an analysis of the proposed bill HD4420 that the Massachusetts Office of Public Safety asked Retired Police Chief Ron Glidden to undertake. I have attached his full analysis to this email. It is long but I hope you will read it.

“Having a “list” of designated weapons plus a features test, plus a similarity and interchangeability test complicates both enforcement and voluntary compliance. There should be just one definition based on characteristics observable and easy to understand for both law enforcement and the owner.”

Feeding device serialization – Section 48

No manufacture serializes feeding devices. Therefore, you are asking current owners to serialize their magazines and enbloc clips. The bill states that the depth of the engraving must be 3/16” of an inch. How do I do that? What is the number supposed to be. If I can’t engrave it who can? By now defining a magazine or feeding device as a “firearm” it can only be handled by the owner or a licensed FFL. FFL’s who provide engraving service are few and far between. Plus, with this requirement no manufacturer will ship a magazine to Mass as the industry is not going to change to accommodate the small market that Massachusetts represents.

I fear I have gone on too long already and have not even touched on the prohibitive space clause and the locking requirements for UPS and FedEx so will end here by restating the idea of the bill is to keep illegal firearms and long guns out of the hands of those who are not licensed to own them. This bill does not speak to that goal and should be rethought. Again, drawing on Ron Glidden’s analysis

“We applaud the crafters of this Bill for their zeal in attempting to do something about the trend of
violence we are seeing by persons illegally using firearms. We know their intentions are good. Their goals
noble. However, the scope of HD 4420 is so widespread and far reaching that many of the proposed
sections simply cannot be accomplished, or in many cases, enforced. We need to focus on legislation,
cooperatively developed by the noted key players, that will truly have a real-world impact on those who
use firearms to commit crimes and acts of violence. After considerable review, we find that HD 4420 is
too problematic as written to realistically accomplish this goal at this time.”


Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have and again thank you for spending your time on the phone with me yesterday.
 
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From today’s MASSter List
Statehouse news service


Gun owners push back as Senate stymies process on new reform bill​
Today's News​
Jim Wallace, executive director of the Gun Owners Action League, is taking a page out of the books of state senators when it comes to the Legislature’s latest take on gun reform.

“This is the first time in my entire career where I won’t be offering any kind of amendment to a bill dealing with gun reform,” Wallace told MASSterList.

That’s because Wallace and his members reject the legislation in its entirety. The bill, now the subject of procedural contention between the House and Senate, has stirred anger among the state’s 600,000 licensed gun owners — many of whom would “turn into felons overnight” should this bill become law, Wallace said.

Rep. Michael Day and gun control advocates have pitched this latest reform legislation as an attempt to crack down on legal loopholes — like the one allowing gun owners to legally purchase assault rifles manufactured before the state ban went in place in the 1990s. It also attempts to crack down on manufacturing and so-called “ghost guns.”

But Second Amendment activists and police departments around the state are pushing back on the bill they say over-regulates and even criminalizes law-abiding gun owners. Law enforcement groups take particular issue with a provision that would make it illegal to carry firearms into many public settings — even for off-duty law enforcement officers.

“This bill is simply a tantrum over the Bruen decision,” Wallace said, referencing the U.S. Supreme Court decision last year striking down New York’s century-old public carry licensing law, setting a precedent that lifted most restrictions for gun owners seeking licenses to carry.

Senators have been tight-lipped on their reasons for erecting procedural roadblocks blocking the bill’s progress, but correspondence shared by Bay State gun owners on Reddit might shed some light.

Senate Ways and Means Chairman Michael Rodrigues told one voter, “I share your belief that this bill will not make Massachusetts any safer than the existing gun legislation already on the books… I have always been a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and have consistently maintained an “A” rating from the Gun Owners Action League.”

Weymouth Sen. Patrick O’Connor, a Republican, told one constituent, “There are many sections of this bill that I believe are unconstitutional… We should be focusing on the illegal sale and possession of firearms in Massachusetts rather than further restricting constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens.”

Sen. Ryan Fattman, a Republican, also opposes the bill, according to one of his staffers.

Democratic Sen. Jason Lewis told a concerned constituent, “I believe that any gun legislation we consider must make our communities safer without violating any constitutional rights.”​
I can tell you right now that Lewis is not being forthright with his constituent. He is perhaps the most liberal senator in MA right now and he will vote for every piece of gun control that comes up and will never once mention the Constitution.

ETA and Lewis and day are in the same district, day is the rep, Lewis the senator, so its highly unlikely hey didn’t confer on this already.
 
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4420 is an omnibus bill that likely will be piled atop and intertwined with the Massachusetts firearm law leviathan. While provisions of it _could_ be struck down after years in the courts, the law, as a whole, will remain in place. MA residents never will be free of it.
GET THIS POSTER (for starters):

and Attorney Foley's .pdf (2013) book here:
 
you'll notice that's not in the marketing materials for the bill, is it?

"so, what you're saying is that it's not just about the ghost guns, is it ... here is what it's really about ..."

and you close with:

"is it time to put the minuteman statue in lexington in storage, stop celebrating patriots day for its real meaning? if beacon hill gets their way, the answer is unequivaically yes."
That's already been brought up a few times, don't remind them.
 
I'm co-opting 420 and turning it in to a gun law.
What is the current status on marijuana and guns, either in the state, or nationally? Still illegal?
Maybe an amendment to address this would be some good chaff to throw into the mix.


There's STILL people out there thinking they are good with their "lifetime" fid's
... and many who just said eff it, and did whatever without any licenses. I'd guess half of them.


And this. I stated earlier that them toning down this bill will actually make it harder for us to fight it.
Yet JGreen (from GOAL) said just within a day or so of this post that we should stop it in its tracks.


the best article in the herald starts:
"it's a sunny afternoon, you decide to go to the range. you lock your gun in the trunk in a locked container. down the road, you realize you need gas and pull into a gas station. you are now a felon in massachusetts".
list after list after list of real scenarios that might even make npr karen rethink it, or at least acknowledge that's what they're doing.
Which part of the bill says this? I'd love to get a list of all these horrible things, and be able to point to the line in the proposed bill that says that, so I can share with my club.


good evening and understand how youth demographics will change destiny if republicans can't figure out how to detoxify the brand with younger people. us boomers are only going to be around for so long, it's not like i've got some great wisdom in how that gets accomplished, there are a lot of variables, but i do look at political maps.
What ever happened to the young Bush kid in Florida? Wasn't he partially hispanic? What other national figures are youngish and doing the right thing that we can look to?


Mark Leven show would get national attention
Who?
 
Text message just now. Not sure how they got my number, but...

MA GUN OWNER ALERT!

Speaker of the House seeks to put radical anti-gun legislation up for a vote on the house floor next week. Oppose HD 4420. Legislation bans .22 calibers, ends hunting on private property, restricts self-defense, confiscation of legally owned rifles! Call Your Legislator and tell them NO on HD 4420! Click link to find your legislator: https://livetxts.com/vg5

Paid for by NSSF

Reply Stop to Stop
 
What is the current status on marijuana and guns, either in the state, or nationally? Still illegal?
Maybe an amendment to address this would be some good chaff to throw into the mix.



... and many who just said eff it, and did whatever without any licenses. I'd guess half of them.



Yet JGreen (from GOAL) said just within a day or so of this post that we should stop it in its tracks.



Which part of the bill says this? I'd love to get a list of all these horrible things, and be able to point to the line in the proposed bill that says that, so I can share with my club.



What ever happened to the young Bush kid in Florida? Wasn't he partially hispanic? What other national figures are youngish and doing the right thing that we can look to?



Who?

spelling error - Mark Levin on FOX (Life Liberty & Levin)
 
Text message just now. Not sure how they got my number, but...

MA GUN OWNER ALERT!

Speaker of the House seeks to put radical anti-gun legislation up for a vote on the house floor next week. Oppose HD 4420. Legislation bans .22 calibers, ends hunting on private property, restricts self-defense, confiscation of legally owned rifles! Call Your Legislator and tell them NO on HD 4420! Click link to find your legislator: https://livetxts.com/vg5

Paid for by NSSF

Reply Stop to Stop
I got the same. Probably bought name off of online shopping list or from sold meta data from social media.
 
Yet JGreen (from GOAL) said just within a day or so of this post that we should stop it in its tracks.

We probably should, if we can. That would be a quick, temporary victory.

Because the more extreme aspects of this law are unlikely to be enacted. They're Day's clumsy negotiating tactic. If they were to pass, the law should be swiftly enjoined.

So. They're likely to tone the law down, thus removing some of the more obviously unconstitutional aspects. And some of us will cheer that, because we don't understand that they're only doing that because they know the law is more likely to survive an initial court challenge that way.

But we'll "celebrate" it as a "victory," because we don't understand their game.

Stopping the bill before the courts have a chance to get hold of it is the most desirable outcome, in the short term. But letting it go through as is, so that the courts can destroy it in five or six years from now, is a more certain victory IMO. It would take longer, but it wouldn't just stop this bill: it would dampen future bills, too.

I'm fine either way. I understand the nature of the state where I live. I would prefer a court solution here, but I realize I'm unlikely to get it.
 
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