Mass shooting @ Baptist church Sutherland Springs, Texas

TLB

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Per reason, he was denied a TX CCP but passed four background checks to purchase firearms.

Someone ****ed up. His military conviction was a domestic violence one. Per current law he should have been a PP and that conviction should have been in NICS and resulted in a denial when he went to purchase.





http://reason.com/blog/2017/11/06/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-texas-chur
This entire story be swept under the rug at the earliest opportunity. Not fitting very well into any of the preferred gun grabber narratives.
 

Garys

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Open carry on one's person (not on private property) was illegal in Texas until 2016. That's why the law was passed that year to change that. There's a lot of information on that available and a simple search will find it. I won't waste time rehashing that here. Ann Richards vetoed concealed carry several times, it was G.W. Bush who finally signed it.

Denial for cause in Texas, still doesn't make one disqualified from purchasing. That's a separate process. If he was able to buy from a FFL, then he passed the background check. If this was a problem with NICS, then it should be fixed.

I still don't know if his military conviction was entered into the system or not. If not, that's a significant lapse.



Yes, I know, I lived there for four years. My point was that the denial of a carry permit "for cause" in Texas is a whole lot different than a denial of a carry permit in MA or other communist venue due to a "may issue" clause in the law.....enabling chiefs of police to discriminate for any number of reasons.

There was no law prohibiting open carry on your person in Texas when I lived there and I routinely had a gun sitting openly on my passenger seat or in the glove compartment. Concealed carry was prohibited unless one was an employed security guard, military or a police officer.
Not until Suzanna Hupp's parents were killed in Luby's Cafeteria did concealed carry come to the state. I lived one street from the place several years previous.
 

BREWINZ

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Slightly off topic, but as I'm debating this with one of my employees (SUPER lib) the topic of Soros, bloomberg, etc. anti gun funding came up. There was a chart posted here a few days ago with connections to orgs, etc. I cannot find it. Anyone have a link?
 

Garys

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I have to agree. My son gets a delay every time he tries to buy a gun. The reason is a court case from 2005 that is still listed as "open" when they do a NICS check. He has the Docket Sheet, has sent the information in for correction, but it's still wrong. He always gets a proceed eventually, but it's a PITA.



Another reason why NICS is pretty much laughable.

-Mike
 

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Picton

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Again, some need to reread Lautenberg. Not every DV case automatically makes you a pp. It does if you had counsel or had a jury trial. I’m not sure that covers UCMJ panels, which aren’t quite the same as juries. That kind of distinction would need to be litigated, and I’m not sure it ever has been.
 

LoginName

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Per reason, he was denied a TX CCP but passed four background checks to purchase firearms.

Someone ****ed up. His military conviction was a domestic violence one. Per current law he should have been a PP and that conviction should have been in NICS and resulted in a denial when he went to purchase.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/11/06/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-texas-chur
Question is, who ****ed up and when?

Did the charge never get entered in the CJIS/NIC's system to begin with, or did some examiner drop the ball?

Last time NIC's ****ed up big time, was with Charleston Church shooting.

I don't know how many heads rolled on that one, but I'm certain some did.
 

SgtHal75

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Exactly! All convictions(violent or not) from a Special or General Court Martial come with a felony conviction. So he lied on form 4473, shocker. Can’t tell anti gunners this. Had a spat with someone from Texas on this and she actually thinks there are no background checks in Texas period. Let’s keep the pressure on em.
 

drgrant

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has anyone heard anything out of Healy's office as to whether she will now change from "we will not prosecute at this time" to turn em in or sell em out of state?
I've stopped paying attention to what dimples says since 7/20 of last year, I think most other people have, too.

Unless they start appropriating money to agencies down below her, to steal peoples guns, nothing has really changed on that front.

-Mike
 
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Heard that they had found the weapon was purchased at a Texas sport shop, but wonder how they determined that he purchased it? If they tracked the serial numbers from the manufacturer to the shop, that I could understand, but, bought in 2016 it would have to take some further tracking to know that the suspect was the original buyer. IMO of course.
 

drgrant

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Again, some need to reread Lautenberg. Not every DV case automatically makes you a pp. It does if you had counsel or had a jury trial. I’m not sure that covers UCMJ panels, which aren’t quite the same as juries. That kind of distinction would need to be litigated, and I’m not sure it ever has been.
That's interesting, I thought the worst part about Lautenberg was that even a misdemeanor of DV turns you into a PP. I guess if a military hearing that didnt convey a criminal punishment doesn't count.

Several years ago the NRA profiled a case where a woman got into a fight with her husband, she threw something at him, tore his pants pocket or something like that.... but nothing huge... neighbors called the kopsch (because of yelling, etc) when kopsch arrived, they calmed down, but made the mistake of running their mouth to the kopsch, husband did not want to press charges but she was arrested under mandatory DV
laws in VA, got bagged as a PP despite serving no jail and only paying a small fine, but, because of the "lautenberg is a pole smoker" law, she is now a PP for life. [rolleyes]

-Mike
 

drgrant

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Heard that they had found the weapon was purchased at a Texas sport shop, but wonder how they determined that he purchased it? If they tracked the serial numbers from the manufacturer to the shop, that I could understand, but, bought in 2016 it would have to take some further tracking to know that the suspect was the original buyer. IMO of course.
Not really, if it was never resold. BATFE's NTC (national tracing center) goes to original manuf, manuf says "we sold SN XXXXXX to dist X" then they go to that guy- dist X says "we sold it to FFL Y" FFL Y then says "we sold it to <insert name of this terrorist shitbird here> on such and such a date with proceed code of blah blah blah". Takes a few hours of detective work by NTC tops, most of it talking on the telephone.

An ancient gun that had been bought and sold a ton of times is much, much harder to trace. (because then they might have to send agents out to track someone down who owned it) Or even a gun that got bought and sold a few times. A relatively new gun, in the original buyer's hands, is child's play for NTC to trace, especially if the manuf, disty, and dealer are all still in
business.

-Mike
 

SteelShooter

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I have not seen any reputable source saying the good guy used an AR15. My 'moms demand action' cousin is saying "see the hero used a reasonable gun" , I would really like to agree with her on this then have her admit is was an evil 'assault' rifle.
 

soloman02

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Question is, who ****ed up and when?

Did the charge never get entered in the CJIS/NIC's system to begin with, or did some examiner drop the ball?

Last time NIC's ****ed up big time, was with Charleston Church shooting.

I don't know how many heads rolled on that one, but I'm certain some did.

More from Reason. Looks like another NICS ****up.

The form that Kelley would have filled out while buying guns from Academy or any other federally licensed dealer asks, "Have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?" Kelley presumably checked "no," but the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), which includes the National Criminal Information Check (NCIC) database, should have flagged the court-martial convictions.

According to a 2001 article in The Military Lawyer, "A court-martialed soldier convicted of a reportable offense entered into the NCIC/NICS will be denied the sale of a firearm." A footnote says reportable offenses include cases involving "a dismissal or punitive discharge" or "conviction of an offense that carries a possible sentence of confinement of one year or more."

In a CNN interview, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Kelley had applied for a concealed carry permit but was rejected by the state's Department of Public Safety. "So how was it that he was able to get a gun?" Abbott asked. "By all the facts that we seem to know, he was not supposed to have access to a gun. So how did this happen?"

The criteria for a Texas carry permit are stricter than the federal criteria for gun ownership. People who have been convicted of a Class A or B misdemeanor in the previous five years, for instance, are ineligible for a carry permit. But if the state's background check flagged Kelley's military convictions, why didn't the FBI's?

Although mass shooters typically do not have disqualifying criminal or psychiatric records, it looks like Kelley did. But as with Dylann Roof, the perpetrator of another horrifying assault on a church, the system that is supposed to catch people who are not legally allowed to buy guns failed to do so.

President Obama cited Roof's attack in making the case for "universal background checks," meaning a legal requirement that all gun transfers, not just those involving federally licensed dealers, receive the FBI's approval. Since Roof passed a background check, that argument did not make much sense. The problem was not the absence of a background check but the inadequacy of the background check that was performed. The same thing seems to be true in this case.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/11/06/why-did-texas-church-shooter-devin-kelle
 

calsdad

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I've stopped paying attention to what dimples says since 7/20 of last year, I think most other people have, too.

Unless they start appropriating money to agencies down below her, to steal peoples guns, nothing has really changed on that front.

-Mike
Once I realized I was a criminal - it was like a weight was off my shoulders.

I don't really give a shit what the "law" is any more - and I don't really pay attention to the spew that comes out of the State House.
 

oppressed

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NECN is trying to ignore the "good guy with a gun" theme entirely by saying he probably committed suicide in the truck because more weapons were found.

Same for WBZ news radio as far as not stating anything about the good Samaritan.
 
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NECN is trying to ignore the "good guy with a gun" theme entirely by saying he probably committed suicide in the truck because more weapons were found.

Same for WBZ news radio as far as not stating anything about the good Samaritan.
So get online and make sure the world hears the truth
 

MachineHead

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I have not seen any reputable source saying the good guy used an AR15. My 'moms demand action' cousin is saying "see the hero used a reasonable gun" , I would really like to agree with her on this then have her admit is was an evil 'assault' rifle.
Sorry for your situation, they’re the most qualified to opine on guns. Just like these “Moms”: https://youtu.be/Mq-2QVczje0

Sources for AR15 used against the loser.

From England : http://www.faithwire.com/2017/11/06/meet-the-hero-plumber-who-woke-up-from-a-nap-and-immediately-confronted-the-texas-church-killer/

From Johnnie Langendorf himself:

https://youtu.be/0FnozfBGq8g
 
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Well it's just more proof the NICS system is flawed and ineffective. The only way that it will be made better is if families of victims are allowed to sue the FBI or local/state police agencies or military justice for failing to provide information to the NICS.
 
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More from the same commentor in the article (guy who lives nearby) on SOFREP

I want to add that the civilian across the street deserves an incredible amount of praise. He saw something and took action with no regard for his own life. He didn’t have time to load his magazine all the way. He threw a few rounds in his magazine and a few more in his pocket. Once the deranged shit bag fled (mortally wounded) the civilian across the street gave chase in a vehicle knowing he only had a few loose rounds in his pocket.

The all volunteer EMS folks did an incredible job as per my friend who was there. They know most or all of those people in that church. He said they saved many lives. They deserve an immense amount of praise for their actions. No doubt they had to see something that no amount of training can prepare you for, and horrific injuries that they will never be able to forget. Please pray for them as well as the dead and wounded.

One more thing....the volunteer EMS folks had tourniquets. According to my friend, a fellow LEO, it was “tourniquet City”. I cannot overstate the importance of having one in your vehicle or on your EDC bag.


...None of this has been confirmed. Just relaying what I heard.
Mike
 

jpk

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this nugget had already been DD'd. nailed for breaking his son's skull. nailed for animal cruelty not to mention bribing under age girls to date him?!?!1?1

WTF
 
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