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Machine Gun Transfer Issue (May have to be Destroyed ): )

duza9999

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Hey gents, Weird one today, we had someone come in who’s going to be admitted to a home in a short while and with his age and condition, it’s a very real possibility he doesn’t live 6 months. Now normally while tragic, it’s not unusual and there is a given process on how to treat inheritaned/estate property guns. However given that this poor soul is going on his deathbead with over 10 Transferable MG’s, I’m rather stumped. The Fed’s have a process for inherited NFA items in which I’m well aware of. I.E. If this guy dies it’s my understanding that based on it being on a individual form 4, possession on a federal level would default to the estate however due to the executor of the estate not having a MG green card under MA state law, possession would have to be surrendered to the local police. But possession would be illegal in a federal level for the police because they would not have a approved form 5 in hand which would take a few weeks.

Nor could the Police give it to me, because I wouldn’t have a approved form 4 to my FFL in time.

I don’t know guys, there is a very real possibility that 10 transferable get chopped up because no one can legally take possession in time unless anyone have any rulings/law I’m missing either federally or State wise [angry]
 
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Hey gents, Weird one today, we had someone come in who’s going to be admitted to a home in a short while and with his age and condition, it’s a very real possibility he doesn’t live 6 months. Now normally while tragic, it’s not unusual and there is a given process on how to treat inheritaned/estate property guns. However given that this poor soul is going on his deathbead with over 10 Transferable MG’s, I’m rather stumped. The Fed’s have a process for inherited NFA items in which I’m well aware of. I.E. If this guy dies it’s my understanding that based on it being on a individual form 4, possession on a federal level would default to the estate however due to the executor of the estate not having a MG green card under MA state law, possession would have to be surrendered to the local police. But possession would be illegal in a federal level for the police because they would not have a approved form 5 in hand which would take a few weeks.

Nor could the Police give it to me, because I wouldn’t have a approved form 4 to my FFL in time.

I don’t know guys, there is a very real possibility that 10 transferable get chopped up because no one can legally take possession in time unless anyone have any rulings/law I’m missing either federally or State wise [angry]
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duza9999

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Are you an 07 FFL w/ 02 SOT? Can't you take possession of them for gunsmithing until something is figured out?
No we went with the 01/03 because my boss didn’t want to deal with DDTC registration. It was like pulling his teeth to even get the 03 for MG transfers.
 
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What’s up? Did you have a question or were you just making a statement about the absurdity of the situation?
Indeed, ridiculous all around (infringement federally, infringement within the state, irresponsible owner). When you conclude the fiasco of a situation, the results may impart a great example as to why it is important to create and properly manage a gun trust, no?
 

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My best recommendation is to contact Jeff Bussell, Red Dog Legal

I don't know if he's still on NES, but he was and sets up NFA trusts. That may be a solution to this problem.
 
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Why would they need a transfer on a Form 5 if it's being held as property until ownership can be transferred? Family around? Someone must have a Power of Attorney to transfer them to a dealer capable to own. Or a auction house that deals in such items.
 

duza9999

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Why would they need a transfer on a Form 5 if it's being held as property until ownership can be transferred? Family around? Someone must have a Power of Attorney to transfer them to a dealer capable to own. Or a auction house that deals in such items.
Nature of the NFA, mere unsupervised (not on same property) possession is a transfer in the eyes of the ATF, only exception being for gunsmithing.
 

duza9999

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My best recommendation is to contact Jeff Bussell, Red Dog Legal

I don't know if he's still on NES, but he was and sets up NFA trusts. That may be a solution to this problem.
I will do that first thing Monday morning, thank you!
 

Climbnsink

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To honor those fine pieces of metal one last time before they are destroyed I'd take them canoeing.
 

drgrant

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I don’t know guys, there is a very real possibility that 10 transferable get chopped up because no one can legally take possession in time unless anyone have any rulings/law I’m missing either federally or State wise [angry]

Lol, no there isn't, as long as you get a smart 07 involved and the people involved aren't birdbrains about it. Don't armflap! Paperwork can be filed while the guns sit in "gunsmithing" land and stuff can get pumped out to whoever the new owner is. You might have to pay the intermediary some storage fees but compared to even the cheapest MG, this shouldn't be a big deal.
 

CrackPot

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This thread makes my head hurt. You are dealing with two different jurisdictions and laws that you have to navigate and you have muddled them together which is causing all the confusion. IANAL. Lets deal with federal first. Upon death the machine guns need to be form 4 to the new owner and the executor can handle this. They can also be form 3 to a SOT who can handle subsequent transfers as needed. Until a form 4 or form 3 is processed, possession needs to be by the executor or named beneficiary in the will. The only other entity that can hold the machine guns is an 07/SOT doing gunsmithing. This requires no form to be filed though some atf agents have recommended a form 5 be used (is not called out in the regs so this is odd)

MA law makes it illegal to possess a machine gun w/o a green card except if you are a licensed machine gun dealer (this is a different discussion because being a dealer is not a sufficient reason to be issued a green card...). So if the executor or beneficiary is unlicensed and cannot possess you need a modified approach. This leaves the 07/SOT doing gun smithing as the only legal federal path that also satisfies state law.

Find a 07/SOT to take the guns and clean and lube them for you. Have them take their time and agree on storage fees. Have the executor file the form 4 or form 3 as appropriate. When the forms are approved, have the executor and entity on the forms go to the 07/SOT. The 07 returns guns to the executor (who does not touch them) who turns them over to the new entity.

The 07 can’t hand directly to the new entity but can only return to the executor who gave them into the care of the 07.

And I would love to hear if your legal counsel recommends a different approach. This is the only one I could think of that satisfies federal and state law.
 
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