MA State Auditor's report on firearm license issuance

[GlockJock]

So, what the **** are they going to do about it besides writing a report?

Be patient! It's Massachusetts, it's a report that is favorable to gun owners, and therefore it's a rather tedious, multi-step process. The next step in the process now will be to "file the report"...

 

[Mark from MA]

Took me a couple days to come to this obvious conclusion, but as the "chief lawyer and law enforcement officer of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts", the Attorney General will take immediate action to bring the non-compliant departments into compliance with the law.

 

[MachineHead]

Application entry and payment through a system like the FA-10 portal would go a long way toward time, and cost, reductions.
Enter your info and payment then immediately receive a receipt and then time to renewal wouldn't matter much - you would only need to visit the PD if a first time applicant.

Doesn't address the base problem of needing a license but would help with the timeline and aggravation.

This couldn't have been said any better. If we can't repeal the licensing nonsense, then this looks promising.

There's no reason why they can't just do all renewals via MIRCS and add in some sort of "have you gotten in any trouble since the last time you had to go through this bullshit?" -No- "ok, you should have your new LTC and mailed to you within 40 days unless we find out you lied."

 

[Len-2A Training]

Took me a couple days to come to this obvious conclusion, but as the "chief lawyer and law enforcement officer of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts", the Attorney General will take immediate action to bring the non-compliant departments into compliance with the law.

CAR, not picking on you but your quote which Healey likes to toss around, sticks in my craw!

In spite of the AG saying so, and many believing her, that position is NOT a "law enforcement officer", but merely the state's attorney. Big difference and thus should not have unfettered (and unfiltered) access to the MIRCS database.

Here is a definition of what a "law enforcement officer" is from US Legal's website. https://definitions.uslegal.com/l/law-enforcement-officer/

A law enforcement officer is a government employee who is responsible for the prevention, investigation, apprehension, or detention of individuals suspected or convicted of offenses against the criminal laws, including an employee engaged in this activity who is transferred to a supervisory or administrative position; or serving as a probation or pretrial services officer.

The AG does not have the authority to apprehend or detain anyone and thus fails the definition. I work with lots of attorneys and they are not "law enforcement officers".

The reason this hits a sore spot with me is that as a Constable, I've been told by Chief Glidden, my former police chief, etc. that MCOPA, EOPS and CJIS have all "determined" that Constables are not law enforcement officers. This in spite of numerous MGLs that specifically charge Constables with the authority to detain, arrest and hold people for court appearances upon a court order or without it in some cases. Personally I have made a decision to no longer make arrests, but that does not diminish our statutory authority to do so. Yet the AG, who merely investigates (then turns over the info to real law enforcement agencies) and prosecutes/defends the casein court makes the claim that they are legitimate law enforcement officers.

 

[strangenh]

Here is a definition of what a "law enforcement officer" is from US Legal's website. https://definitions.uslegal.com/l/law-enforcement-officer/

A law enforcement officer is a government employee who is responsible for the prevention, investigation, apprehension, or detention of individuals suspected or convicted of offenses against the criminal laws, including an employee engaged in this activity who is transferred to a supervisory or administrative position; or serving as a probation or pretrial services officer.

They read it as a series of "OR" requisites for themselves and a series of "AND" requisites with a paired "OR" at the end for you. Seems legit!

 

[MichaelJames1971]

The stuff you come up with sometimes is just so bizarre.

Read between the lines - some of these laws are vague for a reason, so the folks who enforce them have 'wiggle room' to interpret many different things, and not-all of them favorable for your benefit. Having dealt with 'technical requirements' for much of my professional life, I can tell you that many smart people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions/interpretations. IF you make yourself a pain in someone's ass, they will reach a conclusion against you just to get RID of your irritation.

 

[JohnZ]

This couldn't have been said any better. If we can't repeal the licensing nonsense, then this looks promising.

There's no reason why they can't just do all renewals via MIRCS and add in some sort of "have you gotten in any trouble since the last time you had to go through this bullshit?" -No- "ok, you should have your new LTC and mailed to you within 40 days unless we find out you lied."

If they're going to charge me $100 to (supposedly) do a background check, they better not be wasting my time asking that question.

 

[Waher]

Remember that the state never bothered funding the MSP counter arms trafficking unit authorized in the 2014 gun bill. There's no way they are going to shift licensing to MSP or EOPS funding wise. The goons at the MCoPA aren't going to surrender their fiefdoms either.

If the AG's office gained control under 'consumer protection' say hello to "no issue" or restrictions the length of a dictionary.

 

[LoginName]

This couldn't have been said any better. If we can't repeal the licensing nonsense, then this looks promising.

There's no reason why they can't just do all renewals via MIRCS and add in some sort of "have you gotten in any trouble since the last time you had to go through this bullshit?" -No- "ok, you should have your new LTC and mailed to you within 40 days unless we find out you lied."

In order for that to work, they'd have to pass legislation prohibiting the PD/CLEO from requiring bullshit conditions
stipulated or not stipulated by law... (safety re-certification and interviews for renewals, being fingerprinted and/or
photographed a second time, references, proof of membership in a gun club, etc), and there is no ****ing way that's going to happen.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

The following is just a flight of fancy, because at the moment I have the time for frivolous speculation, not because I think it will ever happen.

Setting aside the people that were denied a license and speaking strictly of the people that ultimately were granted a license but outside the 40 day window.

Has civil actionable damage been done to those that were delayed beyond the 40 days. Using the report of the State's own Auditor as justification could a class action lawsuit be filed naming all of the non-conforming municipalities as defendants? The class would include everyone granted a license during the sample period whose applications were not processed within the 40 days.

I know there is the clause in the law about filling to contesting a denial within the time frame, but would that apply to this scenario?

It would have to be a large and vocal class to prevent retaliation by the municipalities against class members come renewal time.

Again this is just an exercise in, I have sweet-FA to do at the moment, I know it would never get off the ground, but tell me why it couldn't.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The following is just a flight of fancy, because at the moment I have the time for frivolous speculation, not because I think it will ever happen.

Setting aside the people that were denied a license and speaking strictly of the people that ultimately were granted a license but outside the 40 day window.

Has civil actionable damage been done to those that were delayed beyond the 40 days. Using the report of the State's own Auditor as justification could a class action lawsuit be filed naming all of the non-conforming municipalities as defendants? The class would include everyone granted a license during the sample period whose applications were not processed within the 40 days.

I know there is the clause in the law about filling to contesting a denial within the time frame, but would that apply to this scenario?

It would have to be a large and vocal class to prevent retaliation by the municipalities against class members come renewal time.

Again this is just an exercise in, I have sweet-FA to do at the moment, I know it would never get off the ground, but tell me why it couldn't.

For renewals, as long as they have the MIRCS receipt they could not prove damages, as the 2014 law allows them all the same privileges as if they had the new license in hand.

So it would have to be some new applicants who suffer harm due to the delays . . . loss of a job opportunity, physical harm from a known threat, etc. This would make it a very small class and difficult to find them.

 

[ManBearPig617]

I'm amazed I got my license faster than most people and I live in Boston. I wouldn't mind waiting 4 months if it was unrestricted though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CAR]

Oh, I hear you Len! I copied that text verbatim off the AG website and had a 2 page rant written but before hitting "post" decided just to go with that one sentence. At the time I didn't even think of that phrase as a state-constitution overreach but you're right, it's another big one.

CAR, not picking on you but your quote which Healey likes to toss around, sticks in my craw!

In spite of the AG saying so, and many believing her, that position is NOT a "law enforcement officer", but merely the state's attorney. Big difference and thus should not have unfettered (and unfiltered) access to the MIRCS database.

Here is a definition of what a "law enforcement officer" is from US Legal's website. https://definitions.uslegal.com/l/law-enforcement-officer/



The AG does not have the authority to apprehend or detain anyone and thus fails the definition. I work with lots of attorneys and they are not "law enforcement officers".

The reason this hits a sore spot with me is that as a Constable, I've been told by Chief Glidden, my former police chief, etc. that MCOPA, EOPS and CJIS have all "determined" that Constables are not law enforcement officers. This in spite of numerous MGLs that specifically charge Constables with the authority to detain, arrest and hold people for court appearances upon a court order or without it in some cases. Personally I have made a decision to no longer make arrests, but that does not diminish our statutory authority to do so. Yet the AG, who merely investigates (then turns over the info to real law enforcement agencies) and prosecutes/defends the casein court makes the claim that they are legitimate law enforcement officers.

 

[Shotgun Scully]

For renewals, as long as they have the MIRCS receipt they could not prove damages, as the 2014 law allows them all the same privileges as if they had the new license in hand.

So it would have to be some new applicants who suffer harm due to the delays . . . loss of a job opportunity, physical harm from a known threat, etc. This would make it a very small class and difficult to find them.

This is interesting as I count myself as victim of this BS. The report only solidified the fact they PD (reading) is one of the worst offenders. My renewal took 11 months And I was denied a transaction during the interim period when the old license is cancelled (new license activated)but the local PD has not yet called me to pick up said newly activated license.
I Truely feel my rights were denied. And I lost out on a sweet 686+.
lets bring the pain.

 

[Mike S]

Sorry, you are showing your ignorance with this reply.

Per MGL, the city/town "collects" 100% of the fee ($100) but is billed by the state for $75/application, so the city/town keeps just 25% ($25) of the fee and that all goes into the city/town "general fund" (70-80% typically goes to schools), so essentially the PD gets NOTHING out of the application fees. It's not the state that is the problem, it is the PDs which treat this as a "when I have spare time" task at best.

This (again) . I've spoken to a ton of ppl over the last 9 years who are/were experiencing delays and the vast majority of them were caused by the local licensing authority (PD) who were either too busy to deal with it, didn't want to, or all of the above.

 

[45collector]

This (again) . I've spoken to a ton of ppl over the last 9 years who are/were experiencing delays and the vast majority of them were caused by the local licensing authority (PD) who were either too busy to deal with it, didn't want to, or all of the above.

PD's too busy to sell us our rights back.

 

[amm5061]

This (again) . I've spoken to a ton of ppl over the last 9 years who are/were experiencing delays and the vast majority of them were caused by the local licensing authority (PD) who were either too busy to deal with it, didn't want to, or all of the above.

Yup. My town is pretty bad with this, and they have two officers doing the licensing checks. And this is a town where three cruisers, the undercover car, an ambulance, and the fire chief show up for a call about an intoxicated woman wondering around the neighborhood. They literally have nothing better to do.

 

[Lank]

Yup. My town is pretty bad with this, and they have two officers doing the licensing checks. And this is a town where three cruisers, the undercover car, an ambulance, and the fire chief show up for a call about an intoxicated woman wondering around the neighborhood. They literally have nothing better to do.

Flashing lights and hero stuff

 

[Obie1]

Well, at least someone seems to have gotten the message. My town is listed as taking 120 days total. I just got my renewal from the same town--17 days total.

 

[JJ4]

I just submitted my renewal. The dumb part is the duplication of work.

- I download the PDF, fill in all my info, print it, sign it, and bring it with me to the police department.
- They take my info, type it all into the state system, print it out again, and have me sign that copy.

90% of the time it took to renew was for the officer to re-type everything back into the system.


How it should be:
- You log into a web portal on a computer or your phone. All your info is already pre-populated because they already know it. You make any changes or updates as needed and hit submit. The local PD receives it and looks it over. They call/email you if they have any questions, otherwise they just hit submit. The state checks what they need to check and send the renewed license. Also it's free.


Edit: I know it "should be" that we have natural rights and that the constitution protects those rights, therefore no license is necessary.

 

[42!]

I just submitted my renewal. The dumb part is the duplication of work.

- I download the PDF, fill in all my info, print it, sign it, and bring it with me to the police department.
- They take my info, type it all into the state system, print it out again, and have me sign that copy.

90% of the time it took to renew was for the officer to re-type everything back into the system.


How it should be:
- You log into a web portal on a computer or your phone. All your info is already pre-populated because they already know it. You make any changes or updates as needed and hit submit. The local PD receives it and looks it over. They call/email you if they have any questions, otherwise they just hit submit. The state checks what they need to check and send the renewed license. Also it's free.

I like the idea of a web site for submitting applications, new or renewal. I'd describe it with a little more detail, sorry it's the engineer in me. And this is based on what is, not what we want for the laws.

State web site with application.
-Applicant completes web application and submits it, email acknowledgement to applicant.
-State system automatically runs background check, emails acknowledgement of State ok or denial (1st round check) with instructions.
-Application is automatically forwarded (regardless of approval/denial) to local PD.
-If denied by the State, local PD deals with the denial.
-If approved by the State, email instructions for interview, pictures, and prints (as necessary) are emailed to the applicant.
-At the interview, local PD confirms ID and applicant signs printout of application information (note: necessary for accountability should there be a mistake).
-Picture and prints are added to the system by the local PD.
-Prints are run by the State...if they actually do this (2nd round check). Applicant notified via email (and written if denied).
-Local PD approves/denies on suitability (3rd round check), enters this into the system. If approved State generates license.
-If denied by the local PD email and written notification is sent to the applicant with instructions.
-If approved by the local PD applicant is emailed and notified of the ETA of their license.
-When the license arrives at the local PD, applicant is emailed to come pick it up.


Now how it should work (I'm acknowledging that the possibility of removing a licensing requirement in MA, in my lifetime, is a dream):
-Applicant completes web application and submits it, email acknowledgement to applicant.
-State system automatically runs background check (1st round check), emails acknowledgement of State ok or denial with instructions.
-State deals with all denial appeals.
-If approved application is automatically forwarded to local PD.
-If approved by the State, email instructions for pictures and prints (as necessary) are emailed to the applicant.
-Scheduling is handled by the State system. Local PD provides overall hours and days to the State but individual appointments are handled by the system (abuse of this by limiting availability will be very obvious).
-Local PD confirms ID and applicant signs printout of application information (note: necessary for accountability should there be a mistake).
-Picture and prints are added to the system by the local PD.
-Prints are run by the State...if they actually do this (2nd round check). applicant notified via email (and written if denied).
-If approved, applicant is emailed and notified of the ETA of their license.
-When the license arrives at the local PD applicant is emailed to come pick it up.

Of course there would be an off-line version of all this for those that do not want to use a web version. Obviously that would introduce significant delays.

I played with the idea that licenses should be picked up at the RMV where they have the equipment to produce them on demand. But eliminating redundant production capability may be beyond what the state is capable of. I also believe there should only be one license. If you under 21 it's only good for long arms, if you're 21 or over it's good for all firearms.

And now back to the real world.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I like the idea of a web site for submitting applications, new or renewal. I'd describe it with a little more detail, sorry it's the engineer in me. And this is based on what is, not what we want for the laws.

UT and FL both have web renewals. I used the UT one recently, and it even accepted the photo online - pretty much everything was automated, including collection of the $15 fee.

 

[PL-52]

I can self certify My CDL to drive a 104,000 lb. truck across state lines ,online, even start my CDL License renewal for same said 104,000 truck online . Then just a QUICK (LOL) visit to the DMV. Can't understand how come I can't even start the process to send my renewal then a quick visit to the local PD for my LTC to carry a 2 lb. firearm online. Makes no sense in the 21st century with all the technology that's available to us everyday. **** Sorry for the redundancy I was typing instead of reading,,,

 

[BobR51]

I know a guy in Worcester that waited a year.

 

[MichaelJames1971]

You do NOT want systems connected to the 'general internet' connected to State/Federal Background Check databases, and you definitely don't want PP information bound at the State level - that info should be NATIONAL, all-day every-day.

 

[42!]

You do NOT want systems connected to the 'general internet' connected to State/Federal Background Check databases,

They already are. Dealers doing 4473s and others doing eFA10s. Federal and state databases at all levels are already accessed through the Internet on a regular and common basis. Where have you been? And technically you're not accessing the database. You're inputting information that is then compared to the database, it's not like you could do a search for a random alphanumeric sequence across all fields and records.

and you definitely don't want PP information bound at the State level - that info should be NATIONAL, all-day every-day.

Again, the State already has access to this. Nothing changes.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

should be no permit needed !

 

[Len-2A Training]

They already are. Dealers doing 4473s and others doing eFA10s. Federal and state databases at all levels are already accessed through the Internet on a regular and common basis. Where have you been? And technically you're not accessing the database. You're inputting information that is then compared to the database, it's not like you could do a search for a random alphanumeric sequence across all fields and records.

Again, the State already has access to this. Nothing changes.

WE can't pull up previously filed eFA-10s on the system, for security reasons. But AFAIK a dealer can pull up previously filed FA-10s.

PDs can pull up info from FRB about transactions as well.

No idea wrt 4473 electronic access or not.

 

[42!]

WE can't pull up previously filed eFA-10s on the system, for security reasons. But AFAIK a dealer can pull up previously filed FA-10s.

PDs can pull up info from FRB about transactions as well.

No idea wrt 4473 electronic access or not.

Type of access depends on who you are. Dealers can file 4473s, that's a type of access. I'm sure there are those at the ATF that can access all sorts of information through "secure" web sites over the internet.

I use "you" in the general sense below, I an not referring to Len.

My point was that gov systems are already connected to the Internet. Sure there is security, intermediate systems, and varying levels of access, but they are still connected. You can create accounts with Social Security, the IRS, MA DOR, and countless others. The databases you are accessing contain information you are allowed to see and info you are not allowed to see. Many gov systems let you search "public" records. Do you think they have two systems and manually move documents between "public" and "private", no it's all the same database just with different levels of access.

 

[Seamsealer]

Now I have to rain on everyone's parade. My Florida LTC renewal came the mail on a Saturday, I now live in Florida. On Monday I went to the next town tax collectors office and renewed. She took my application, took my photo, paid her the $45 for a 7 year license and walked out the door in less than 10 minutes. Effective right now but doesn't expire until Jan of 25. No letters to the chief or interviews with police officers. She was very polite, courteous, helpful and smiled most of the time. No more Mass for me. Bye the way, the license was $5 cheaper than it was a few months ago, because of a tax reduction law they passed here, just love it.