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MA FA-10 completed by gun shop on stripped lowers
- Thread starter bgoum
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Comm2A case: Jarvis v. Village Vault
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Assuming one allowed the PD in, and the frames were stored with the guns or the PD did an entire premises search.
I many 209a's, a family member provides cooperation and assists with the surrender.
Plus, one becomes federally prohibited once they have had a chance to appear in court on a RO (MA requires no court appearance to trigger the prohibition), and a federal prohibition would include frames.
I bought an Anderson stripped lower at four seasons on black friday (well saturday really) which was late november 2015 and they required an FA10 on it. I knew better and questioned them about it and their position was "the frame is the firearm" so it has to be registered. Again, could have called bs but they have always treated me well so I let it go. But they registered it as a 0" barreled .223 caliber rifle, which it has never been either 0" or .223 caliber so it seems that by doing this they are just polluting the database with rifles that don't exist.
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The problem is that while the EOPS has been 100% consistent that a stripped lower or frame is not a firearm, rifle or shotgun under MGL, it has declined to issue a written directive to dealers to clarify this.
I suspect a lot of shops that currently FA10 frames would stop if the state would issue written guidance.
I suspect a lot of shops that currently FA10 frames would stop if the state would issue written guidance.
Is there a list of shops (particularly close to Boston) that will handle frame/lower transfers appropriately without FA10 at the time of purchase/pickup? I know Minuteman was named in this thread and love the shop, but they are a bit far for me.
You might give B&K Sales a call in Natick and ask Brian.
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one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
They probably asked the state. Jack.
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More accurately, Four Seasons does eFA-10s because it cannot get a written statement from any state agency or official that they are not required.
Four Seasons will not take in transfers of frames for unapproved for sale handguns - just to be on the safe side and avoid annoying the AG.
Yeah, but at some point there's a line of absurdity here... It's like asking for a letter giving you permission to breathe. Frames are not firearms in MA by the letter of the law, period, end, full stop. Then again, FS might take the POV that the judges in this state make up law as they go along, but even that is kind of a stretch of credulity with this case.
-Mike
greencobra
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i just went into my records and pulled 4 fa-10's from 4s for stripped lowers. barrel length 0.00", cal is listed as 5.56. hmmm, never noticed before. ya know, i just assumed they would have put down "multi" until built then you come back and have it changed. guess not, never assume.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
They probably think that they won't get hassled for doing something that's not required, only for not doing something that is required. Mind set. Jack.
Both you and Rob are correct. Carl thinks of it as a CYA move. Personally I disagree, but it's his business and he's free to do as he pleases. I've bought a lot of guns there and sent tons of people his way, but I would not buy a frame there for any gun.
Sadly we've seen some insane, convoluted court rulings in MA by both state and USDC. As much as I disagree with his policy, I do understand why he's doing it.
If it is in the system never a need to change it. If you flip a 16" bbl on a FA-10'd as 20" AR-15, do you change the FA-10? And if you swap them back, do you change it again?
My TC Contender was bought with a .44Mag and .357Mag bbls (back then you bought the frame separate from the bbls IIRC) at the same time. FA-10 (tissue paper) says it is .44Mag. It has ALWAYS ONLY worn the .357Mag bbl. I'm not in the least concerned. It's "registered", end of story.
As much as registration of a frame is wrong, once done it is done! I have my copy as proof and that is all I need.
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A thought....
Are you so sure that there is no risk to a shop not filling out an eFA-10 on a stripped lower that you would sign an indemnification contract for the shop's legal fees if the AG chose to disagree?
If the answer is no, you are agreeing there is some risk and expect the shop to underwrite that risk for a $40 or so transfer fee.
Are you so sure that there is no risk to a shop not filling out an eFA-10 on a stripped lower that you would sign an indemnification contract for the shop's legal fees if the AG chose to disagree?
If the answer is no, you are agreeing there is some risk and expect the shop to underwrite that risk for a $40 or so transfer fee.
Goliathan
NES Member
Huh. I guess I need to check the paperwork I recently got. I picked up an AR lower on the spur of the moment while I was picking up my 637. Pretty sure all I got was a receipt for that lower so I'm assuming that no FA-10 was filed. Should I go back and double check with the shop? Didn't occur to me that some might file an FA-10 for a lower so I didn't think to ask.
I don't see the need to draw unnecessary attention to myself by registering it when I finish the build, if it's already been done.
I don't see the need to draw unnecessary attention to myself by registering it when I finish the build, if it's already been done.
If the dealer did an eFA-10 (MIRCS), he/she would have given you a copy. So just check your paperwork from that purchase. If it isn't there, it wasn't done.
Nobody pays attention to the electronically entered transfers, so doing it twice won't call attention to anyone except a computer - it's just another data point.
There is risk in everything. The level of risk with this is minor and the only reason you are defending the practice is due to the shop involved. I appreciate loyalty but damn Rob, it's a bit much. The only defense is Mike's "well the FA10's don't really mean much" but if that is the case then why file them at all and then you also have no justification in filing with a block of metal.
The fact is, there is more risk in filing falsified FA10 forms than there is in not filing the forms for something that is universally accepted in this state as not being a firearm.
I have seen them put 7.62x39 & 16" bbl on an AK receiver that was being built as a 5.45 SBR which results in a completely fabricated and falsified record. Is it the owner's fault he/she owns the gun with a false FA10 record? Or do they then file a second FA10 with the correct data only to create two records for the same serial?
Like you, I disagree with Rob. Yes, the AG can claim ANYTHING she wants and the USDC has shown that they will agree with her "just because" with nothing to back it up. However, MGL clearly states what a gun is in C. 140 S. 121 and a frame just does NOT meet those requirements. Thus, I don't assess any risk in a dealer doing a straight up 4473 ONLY transfer. I'm not indemnifying anyone about anything however, I just don't roll that way.
I also don't worry if a filed FA-10 doesn't match reality due to a change in the end result. I've stated before that back in the 1970s I bought a T/C Contender with 2 bbls (frame was sold separately back then) from a dealer (all at the same time). He did the FA-10 (tissue paper) as .44Mag. Although I still own the .44Mag bbl, it has NEVER been mounted on that frame. When I got home I assembled it with the .357Mag and have only shot it with that bbl. I sleep well at night and could care less. For the super paranoid, they would re-register it every time they swapped a bbl on it or changed up the upper on an AR-15 lower. Whatever makes one sleep well at night I guess!!
I'd say you should do the FA-10 even if the shop did one. The lower doesn't meet the criteria to fire a round. When you build it, it does and that's when it should be registered.
If having two entered was an issue, everyone who built a lower from places like Four Seasons would be getting calls.
