Locked door? Locked container? Locked WTF?!

[lord1234]

So, I know there is case law that says a door lock that can be opened via a pin(push button spring lock) is not valid for "Safe storage". How about a door lock that has a key lock? What about a deadbolt? At what point does a room become a "vault"? Does it have to have a "vault door"? What defines a vault door?

 

[terraformer]

The controlling case law is here.

http://masscases.com/cases/app/64/64massappct846.html

Page 850 is what you are looking for.

 

[lord1234]

Correct, that was the case I was referencing. I point you to this part

[quote-pg850]Even a door locked with a key is not secure if the key is hanging next to the lock. Assuming the defendant's bedroom to be a container, and further that it was locked at the time of the theft, [Note 4] the defendant was in violation of G. L. c. 140, § 131L, because the lock was easily defeated by anyone with access to a bobby pin and did not prevent ready access by anyone other than the lawful owner. Because the evidence supports a finding that the

Page 851

room was not a securely locked container, denial of the defendant's motions for a required finding of not guilty was proper. [/quote]

So, a keyed locked door, with a key not on the hook by the door, meets the requirements?

 

[Radio]

But that was just a bathroom/bedroom style lock that can be opened with a bobby pin. I believe if the defendant had installed a keyed lock AND a deadbolt on a solid door with no other access to the room the ruling may have been different but IANAL so best to ask one.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This is a perfect example of how a bad case makes bad law - there is no way the court believed the defendant actually use the privacy lock on his bedroom door to lock the guns in that room each time he left.

 

[xtry51]

Ah, all that money wasted prosecuting the victim of a robbery. I'm sure no where near the amount was spent on the person who actually stole the gun. Way to make another honest citizen into a criminal PRoMA.

 

[terraformer]

Ah, all that money wasted prosecuting the victim of a robbery. I'm sure no where near the amount was spent on the person who actually stole the gun. Way to make another honest citizen into a criminal PRoMA.

That case was a cluster duck beyond belief. He was FIP but instead of charging him with that (because they failed to notify him his renewal was denied or at least were unable to prove they did), they went for the easy win. Then in comes the appeal and more absurdity ensues.

 

[lord1234]

But that was just a bathroom/bedroom style lock that can be opened with a bobby pin. I believe if the defendant had installed a keyed lock AND a deadbolt on a solid door with no other access to the room the ruling may have been different but IANAL so best to ask one.

"No other access"

What if its a basement, with a window. Door locked, window locked. Is that enough?

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

So, a keyed locked door, with a key not on the hook by the door, meets the requirements?

It would seem that this might be the case, and I'm sure a competent attorney would argue such based upon this decision. But you're never really going to know until someone is charged under these conditions and uses that defense. That's the way case law works.

 

[Len-2A Training]

"No other access"

What if its a basement, with a window. Door locked, window locked. Is that enough?

From discussions with Chief Ron Glidden some years ago, the answer seems to be NO!

Those involved in prosecuting such things opined that if there is ANY possible access to a room thru a window or unsecured door (see above case for opinion on what isn't a secured door) that it would be treated the same as a "locked house" . . . not within the law.

BUT, if you have a locked closet (with no other means of access) with a tumbler lock (or padlock), you have now created a properly locked storage "container".

IANAL, but if the cellar window had bars on it 3" apart, you might get a pass, but if it is a standard cellar window, a push breaks the glass, reach in and unlock the window and if you know how, most are totally removable so you can shimmy into the basement. Not secure at all and a real weak spot in many homes.

 

[HooVooLoo]

So much for the phrase, in the M.G.Ls..."Unauthorized access".

 

[HorizontalHunter]

I would guess that locking the zippers together on a soft sided long gun case is a waste of time.

Bob

 

[Dirtypacman]

Save your pennies and just spend the extra couple bucks on a stack-on or another low costing safe. It's just that easy.

 

[M1911]

When I spoke with one firearms attorney, he suggested that another factor would be what the room is used for. If the room is solely a gun vault, then a locked door might suffice. If the room is also a bedroom, then locking the door on the bedroom would not suffice.

In other words, no one seems to know (or agree).

Save your pennies and just spend the extra couple bucks on a stack-on or another low costing safe. It's just that easy.

This.

 

[EC1]

From discussions with Chief Ron Glidden some years ago, the answer seems to be NO!

Those involved in prosecuting such things opined that if there is ANY possible access to a room thru a window or unsecured door (see above case for opinion on what isn't a secured door) that it would be treated the same as a "locked house" . . . not within the law.

BUT, if you have a locked closet (with no other means of access) with a tumbler lock (or padlock), you have now created a properly locked storage "container".

IANAL, but if the cellar window had bars on it 3" apart, you might get a pass, but if it is a standard cellar window, a push breaks the glass, reach in and unlock the window and if you know how, most are totally removable so you can shimmy into the basement. Not secure at all and a real weak spot in many homes.

What about a basement room, two doors, both steel with exterior type locks (key always carried, no hanging on a hook) and a standard thermopane casement window with alarm but no bars?

 

[M1911]

What about a basement room, two doors, both steel with exterior type locks (key always carried, no hanging on a hook) and a standard thermopane casement window with alarm but no bars?

Do you really want to be a test case?

 

[EC1]

Do you really want to be a test case?

Thanks for the non-answer.

 

[WanMan99]

What about a basement room, two doors, both steel with exterior type locks (key always carried, no hanging on a hook) and a standard thermopane casement window with alarm but no bars?

I have a room similar to this but with one door, no window and a keyed locked door. Inside the room I keep handguns in a locked carry case (metal, fireproof) and trigger locks on the rifles, reloading equipment etc. I am confident that my equipment is "secure" as far as the state is concerned.... Hopefully I will never have to be a test case but I feel my setup is right up there and even better than a bunch of the crappy safes they sell as being "secure".

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The controlling case law is here.

http://masscases.com/cases/app/64/64massappct846.html

Page 850 is what you are looking for.

I love that cite on Page 850 :

(statute is to be interpreted so that "no clause, sentence or word shall prove superfluous, void or insignificant if by any other construction it may be made useful and pertinent")

Just another case to cite in the event the state claims "on one's person" in 269-10j does not actually mean anything.

 

[M1911]

Thanks for the non-answer.

I wasn't trying to be flippant. Near as I can tell, there isn't an answer. No one knows. The only way to find out would be to be the test case, which, of course, no one wants to be.

The firearms lawyer that I spoke to said that if the room was solely used for storing guns, that locked door might be sufficient. In other words, even he didn't know. And then there is the issue of the window.

 

[MisterHappy]

The scary part, IMO, is this:

...maintained in locked containers in a way that will deter all but the most persistent from gaining access.

taken from page 850.

The legislation was "safe storage" to prevent unauthorized access and/or use, but this one sentence fragment changes it to a "security" issue as opposed to access.

The guy in Lowell had a dedicated concrete block vault ("Very secure" according to the Lowell PD), but it was still defeated, and he was jammed up.

 

[jasons]

Thanks for the non-answer.

There is no answer, there's only untested opinion. Good luck.

The guy in Lowell had a dedicated concrete block vault ("Very secure" according to the Lowell PD), but it was still defeated, and he was jammed up.

AFAIK he wasn't jammed up for the gun storage, he was jammed up for storing "explosive" reloading supplies (power and primers) without a permit in violation of M.G.L. c. 148, § 12. It's a BS charge and completely misapplied, but they've managed to make it stick so far. More proof that if they want to F you they will find a way.

Good thread on that case here: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...stolen-from-Lowell-home?p=2534174#post2534174

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This is an example of the classic maxim "bad cases make bad law". Chances are slim the court believed someone was actually using a bedroom privacy lock to secure the guns but, since that could not be proven, hung the court's hat on what logic was available.

 

[TReischl]

Let's see if I got this case straight:

1. Applies for renewal of license, does not hear anything back for months on end. (tells jury he figured his canelled check was good enough, ya think his lawyer had him dig through his check book for that?)

2. Friends move in with him. Then friends 17 year old son moves in.

3. Everytime he leaves the house, he barricades his closet door, locks his bedroom door from the inside and then leaves. (Picture him doing that if he comes and goes three or four times on a Saturday)

4. When he comes back, he uses a bobby pin to open the door, unstacks the stuff in front of the closet door, etc.

5. Everyone in the house uses this routine.

6. The kid's MOTHER calls the police when his guns are stolen. Huh?

7. The guy's renewal was denied months before all this happened (I did not see why that was).

Everyone who said "Bad Cases make for Bad Law" are right on target. This guy should not own a BB gun, he will shoot his own eye out when he moves the clothes that he has it hidden behind.

As a gun owner I would want him charged with the crime of:

"Galactically Stupid" and then I would vote to convict him. And I am not anti gun!!!!!

 

[jasons]

This guy should not own a BB gun, he will shoot his own eye out when he moves the clothes that he has it hidden behind.

Blaming the victim, nice work.

 

[HTRN]

Let's see if I got this case straight:

1. Applies for renewal of license, does not hear anything back for months on end. (tells jury he figured his canelled check was good enough, ya think his lawyer had him dig through his check book for that?)

2. Friends move in with him. Then friends 17 year old son moves in.

3. Everytime he leaves the house, he barricades his closet door, locks his bedroom door from the inside and then leaves. (Picture him doing that if he comes and goes three or four times on a Saturday)

4. When he comes back, he uses a bobby pin to open the door, unstacks the stuff in front of the closet door, etc.

5. Everyone in the house uses this routine.

6. The kid's MOTHER calls the police when his guns are stolen. Huh?

7. The guy's renewal was denied months before all this happened (I did not see why that was).

Everyone who said "Bad Cases make for Bad Law" are right on target. This guy should not own a BB gun, he will shoot his own eye out when he moves the clothes that he has it hidden behind.

As a gun owner I would want him charged with the crime of:

"Galactically Stupid" and then I would vote to convict him. And I am not anti gun!!!!!

So, if there was nobody who actually violated property rights and stole his guns, what harm did he do to another?

If I leave my keys in my truck, does it become my fault if some criminal steals my truck and drives it through a house?

Does the criminal that stole and the proceeded to use the vehicle for violent purposes hold any blame?



You say you are not "anti-gun" (whatever that means) but are you anti-reason? Or if the state legislates that 2+2=5 and the courts agree, do you step in line and convince yourself that its so?

What is law, is rarely what is true.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I have a room similar to this but with one door, no window and a keyed locked door. Inside the room I keep handguns in a locked carry case (metal, fireproof) and trigger locks on the rifles, reloading equipment etc. I am confident that my equipment is "secure" as far as the state is concerned.... Hopefully I will never have to be a test case but I feel my setup is right up there and even better than a bunch of the crappy safes they sell as being "secure".

I have similar,

Guns in stack-on cabinets,
stack-on cabinets in room with no windows and only one door, with outdoor type keyed lock
gun room on 24x7x365 monitored alarm with door alarm and motion sensor, with battery backup, and wireless radio backup in case wires cut

hope that will suffice

 

[bender73]

I have similar,

Guns in stack-on cabinets,
stack-on cabinets in room with no windows and only one door, with outdoor type keyed lock
gun room on 24x7x365 monitored alarm with door alarm and motion sensor, with battery backup, and wireless radio backup in case wires cut

hope that will suffice

Do you keep your gold bricks in there too? Lol

 

[Kicker96FS]

Let's see if I got this case straight:

1. Applies for renewal of license, does not hear anything back for months on end. (tells jury he figured his canelled check was good enough, ya think his lawyer had him dig through his check book for that?)

2. Friends move in with him. Then friends 17 year old son moves in.

3. Everytime he leaves the house, he barricades his closet door, locks his bedroom door from the inside and then leaves. (Picture him doing that if he comes and goes three or four times on a Saturday)

4. When he comes back, he uses a bobby pin to open the door, unstacks the stuff in front of the closet door, etc.

5. Everyone in the house uses this routine.

6. The kid's MOTHER calls the police when his guns are stolen. Huh?

7. The guy's renewal was denied months before all this happened (I did not see why that was).

Everyone who said "Bad Cases make for Bad Law" are right on target. This guy should not own a BB gun, he will shoot his own eye out when he moves the clothes that he has it hidden behind.

As a gun owner I would want him charged with the crime of:

"Galactically Stupid" and then I would vote to convict him. And I am not anti gun!!!!!

Oh boy! Fresh meat!

Have you really followed this case? Do you understand how fracked up the laws are in this state? How unnecessary?

The only thing he did wrong was try to comply in a Nazi city in a retarded state.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Do you keep your gold bricks in there too? Lol

Not bricks