If you moved to MA with a non-compliant gun....

[Brian48]

....and decided to sell it or trade it into a local gunshop, would the dealer be able to accept it?

Just curious, because I was under the assumption that they would not be able to resell it. When I sold my Browning Hi-Power to Roaches Sporting Goods a few years back, I recall them asking me when it was manufactured.

Anyway, I'm asking because I recently purchased a Colt from a local dealer and I think it may have actually been manufacturered after the cut off date.

Now I know this is a technicality, but would I eventually get a letter saying I needed to bring it back for a refund? As I recall, FS guns had to recall a bunch of non-compliant Glocks that were inadvertantly sold to the public and posted a message on their asking customers to come in for a swap or refund.

 

[Brian48]

FYI, it's not that I'm concerned about a letter from the state, I'm referring to the store. I'd hate to see a local dealer get in trouble for something like this and potentially lose their license. There's too many of them vanishing every day from our state.

 

[jdubois]

Yes, a dealer can purchase a non-compliant gun from you. They would not be able to resell it to a private individual in MA, but they could sell it to another FFL out of state. A lot of MA dealers sell guns out of state as part of their business. However, if you had a non-compliant gun that you were looking to sell, be kind and sell it to another MA resident so that it stays in the state!

On your other question, the general consensus is that if the dealer screwed up and sold you a non-compliant gun, it's their problem and you are in legal possession of it, so you would not have to give it back. But this is not absolutely true. The state could possibly take the gun from you under the argument that the sale was an illegal contract and is therefore void and the gun still belongs to the dealer. Don't know if that would really fly in court, though.

 

[jdubois]

FYI, it's not that I'm concerned about a letter from the state, I'm referring to the store. I'd hate to see a local dealer get in trouble for something like this and potentially lose their license. There's too many of them vanishing every day from our state.

Simplest solution for that is to just keep your mouth shut.

 

[drgrant]

FYI, it's not that I'm concerned about a letter from the state, I'm referring to the store. I'd hate to see a local dealer get in trouble for something like this and potentially lose their license. There's too many of them vanishing every day from our state.

If the dealer sold you a handgun they weren't supposed to, it's their problem. Further, a lot of them don't care about the regs or have their own creative interpretation of the regs, so many of them do this knowingly. I wouldn't look the gift horse in the mouth, if you catch my drift.

-Mike

 

[Brian48]

You gotta love this moonbat state

 

[Brian48]

If the dealer sold you a handgun they weren't supposed to, it's their problem. Further, a lot of them don't care about the regs or have their own creative interpretation of the regs, so many of them do this knowingly. I wouldn't look the gift horse in the mouth, if you catch my drift.

-Mike

Yeah, I suppose it's really in my favor that this happened. It's just that this is my home defense gun and I want to ensure that there aren't any legal disadvantages or barbs that I'm not aware of. I really love this piece and would hate to lose it due to some technicality somewhere. I called Colt this morning. My gun was manufactured in 2005. Well beyond the cutoff date. I was wondering why this gun was in such great shape.

Anyway, so this is what I've learned. It's illegal for them to have sold it to me, but it's perfectly legal for me to own. It's perfectly legal for me to sell it to either another dealer (provided he sells it to someone outside of the state) or another MA resident with a LTC. And it's perfectly legal for that person to do the same. Boy this state is really something, isn't it?

 

[vicpinto]

The state could possibly take the gun from you under the argument that the sale was an illegal contract and is therefore void

Even worse. You could be looked at as an unfit individual...

 

[45collector]

Must be a 1911. PM me if you want to sell it.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER: I will not knowingly engage in any illegal activity or complete any transaction that is against the AG's rules. I just like Colts.

 

[drgrant]

Anyway, so this is what I've learned. It's illegal for them to have sold it to me, but it's perfectly legal for me to own. It's perfectly legal for me to sell it to either another dealer (provided he sells it to someone outside of the state) or another MA resident with a LTC. And it's perfectly legal for that person to do the same. Boy this state is really something, isn't it?

That's basically it in a nutshell. The best way of thinking of these regulations is that so called "non compliant" handguns are basically "tagless mattresses". They're not illegal to own/possess, but an "MA licensed dealer" is not supposed to sell them to an MA consumer.

-Mike

 

[Brian48]

Must be a 1911. PM me if you want to sell it.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER: I will not knowingly engage in any illegal activity or complete any transaction that is against the AG's rules. I just like Colts.

 

[45collector]

That's basically it in a nutshell. The best way of thinking of these regulations is that so called "non compliant" handguns are basically "tagless mattresses". They're not illegal to own/possess, but an "MA licensed dealer" is not supposed to sell them to an MA consumer.

-Mike

So what do you think would happen when the FA-10 gets processed? Would anyone at the CHB catch that a newpro Colt is not on the APR?

 

[Brian48]

I wonder how long it takes to process a dealer FA-10? Or any FA-10 for that matter.

 

[drgrant]

So what do you think would happen when the FA-10 gets processed? Would anyone at the CHB catch that a newpro Colt is not on the APR?

CHSB doesn't care about what is on the FA-10 form. All they want to do is log/record the transaction. Keep in mind there are also perfectly legitimate reasons for a "non compliant" handgun to appear on one of these forms.

Hint: CHSB has no role, as an "agency" in determining or caring about handgun compliance. It literally is "not their job". As a matter of fact, IIRC, during the dealer sting business a few years ago, CHSB got into a pissing contest with the AG over demands made by the AGs office to turn over records. I think it ended with CHSB redacting buyer data from the records they ended up turning over, to protect the identity of the consumers, which are not relevant WRT handgun compliance. CHSB likely wanted to make sure that people would not be tempted to pollute the database, or intentionally fail to file forms, etc. While those things are obviously illegal, it stands to reason that the sole arbiter of quality of data in their system is the honesty of dealers and gun owners who are supplying that data. CHSB likely reasoned- "why give people another reason to screw with the system?"

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I wonder how long it takes to process a dealer FA-10? Or any FA-10 for that matter.

If a dealer is using a MIRCS terminal, it only takes as long as it takes for the dealer to type the info into it and press a button to transmit it electronically.

For the hand filled forms some guy/lady just feeds them into a scanning machine in batches, and I'd bet the speed at which that thing works largely depends on how badly someone's handwriting is on those forms.

-Mike

 

[amb]

CHSB doesn't care about what is on the FA-10 form.

Indeed. It doesn't apply here, but there are lots of off-list guns around that dealers can sell, they just need to have been in-state before the cutoff, and there's no easy way for the CHSB to tell what's what.

Each dealer also has their own special take on the laws and regulations, too. In the case of handguns, though, that's a useful tool for the customer. (There are dealers who will assume anything sold to them from a Mass. customer is compliant, and other dealers who will sell any target gun, for instance.) In the case of long guns and mags, it sucks and leads to the "here's a felony in a bag!" situation.

This state is crazy, but it's still better than New Jersey.

 

[sig2009]

This state is crazy, but it's still better than New Jersey.

Hey be careful there! I live in NJ. If you don't behave yourself I will not stock up on non complient guns when I move back there. I agree NJ sucks but we can still buy anything except a fully auto machine gun or a supressed AR. NO LTC'S issued here though.

 

[RG617]

I came across turned in West German Police Sig P6's for under $275, but it seems getting one here would be a problem. From what I've read, it's basically a P225 (they're usually referred to as P6/225's) with a different model number given to it for whatever reason. A freaking single stacked 9mm SIG that holds only eight rounds at that price and I'm SOL. Such garbage.

 

[sig2009]

I came across turned in West German Police Sig P6's for under $275, but it seems getting one here would be a problem. From what I've read, it's basically a P225 (they're usually referred to as P6/225's) with a different model number given to it for whatever reason. A freaking single stacked 9mm SIG that holds only eight rounds at that price and I'm SOL. Such garbage.

There are many places now selling the P6 West German. They have all the West German proof marks and they were carried alot but not shot. Except for the finish they are barely used. I have a p225 which if I could get a LTC in this state is the perfect carry gun. The only real difference is the P6 has the notched trigger.

Just to make your mouth water I recently bought this new in the box original West German P228 9mm for $600 from my dealer. It was never shot. Traded in by a retired secret service agent. I guess another non complient Ma. gun.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Just to make your mouth water I recently bought this new in the box original West German P228 9mm for $600 from my dealer. It was never shot. Traded in by a retired secret service agent. I guess another non compliant Ma. gun.

okay, NOW I'm mad. I want one of those.

 

[terraformer]

The state could possibly take the gun from you under the argument that the sale was an illegal contract and is therefore void and the gun still belongs to the dealer. Don't know if that would really fly in court, though.

But this has not happened yet and with the M&P fiasco a few months back, all the AG did was "urge" people to return for a full refund these "unsafe" firearms. Nothing else while everyone who bought one went off and sold them privately for a few hundred or more over MSRP... Have fun with your colt, don't sweat the issue, the dealer's problem is theirs, and nothing you need to be concerned with.

 

[jdubois]

But this has not happened yet and with the M&P fiasco a few months back, all the AG did was "urge" people to return for a full refund these "unsafe" firearms.

That was a slightly different situation. The AG regs are different than the approved firearms roster. The wording of C 140 § 123, which the roster is based on says, "no licensee shall sell, rent, lease, transfer or deliver..." In other words, it would be an illegal sale. Whereas 940 CMR 16.00, the AG handgun sales regulations, says, "It shall be an unfair or deceptive practice..." In other words, not an illegal sale, but a punishable business practice.

If the AG's regs are broken, the gun is still yours and nobody can take it from you. If the approved firearms roster is broken, it's a more iffy question.

 

[RG617]

There are many places now selling the P6 West German. They have all the West German proof marks and they were carried alot but not shot. Except for the finish they are barely used. I have a p225 which if I could get a LTC in this state is the perfect carry gun. The only real difference is the P6 has the notched trigger.

Exactly. Same gun, but because of a stupid issue over the model number I'm losing out on a solid, affordable pistol I could use for both the range and as a carry until I can afford the one I really want. Unbelievably frustrating.

 

[terraformer]

Exactly. Same gun, but because of a stupid issue over the model number I'm losing out on a solid, affordable pistol I could use for both the range and as a carry until I can afford the one I really want. Unbelievably frustrating.

See here http://www.northshorefirearms.com/id78.html
search for 225. They have it mistakenly listed as p9, not p6. I think at least since I have never heard of a sig p9... Boku bucks however. Likely not part of this german police dump of p6s.

PS: Interesting theory on why the hammer is notched. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtCr8FubeBI

 

[drgrant]

okay, NOW I'm mad. I want one of those.

Actually, that particular gun is probably Pre-98 exempt. P228s are on the list, IIRC... so all you have to do is find one made before 98.

-Mike

 

[sig2009]

Actually, that particular gun is probably Pre-98 exempt. P228s are on the list, IIRC... so all you have to do is find one made before 98.

-Mike

I just checked and my p228 was made in 1991.

 

[Brian48]

This is interesting. I was window shopping over Four Season's website and found on their Glock page a notice that was posted in '04 regarding some non-compliant Glocks that were accidently sold. Maybe this is not the same scenario ('cause FS didn't know), but it seems that all they (FS and the AG) did was urge folks to bring them back.

http://www.fsguns.com/glocks.html

I wonder if they ever took it any further. Based on what FS has on the page, it doesn't look like it went any further than that.

 

[jdubois]

This is interesting. I was window shopping over Four Season's website and found on their Glock page a notice that was posted in '04 regarding some non-compliant Glocks that were accidently sold. Maybe this is not the same scenario ('cause FS didn't know), but it seems that all they (FS and the AG) did was urge folks to bring them back.

This was the same scenario as the M&Ps. They were selling against the AG regs, not against the Approved Firearms Roster.

 

[sig2009]

This was the same scenario as the M&Ps. They were selling against the AG regs, not against the Approved Firearms Roster.

I heard of screwed up government before but wouldn't it be possible for one agency there to determine what is approved instead of one saying it's not and the other saying it's ok?

 

[jdubois]

I heard of screwed up government before but wouldn't it be possible for one agency there to determine what is approved instead of one saying it's not and the other saying it's ok?

If it were only that bad! What you've got is the EOPSS saying what is approved, and the AG saying, "try it, and if I don't like it you'll hear from me."