If someone breaks in, can I legally hold them at gunpoint until police arrive?

[Len-2A Training]

(It would be fairly easy to articulate that of you were home, the intruder would have believed someone was home, and therefore making the intrusion a felony, and thus a citizens arrest would be lawful)

To a rational being yes it is a felony. HOWEVER, better read the law again. It doesn't say that you are justified if the crime is a felony, it says you are justified if the person is CONVICTED of a felony!! There is miles of difference between the two. Most cases end in a plea bargain and it is VERY COMMON for a felony charge to be dropped to a misdemeanor in the plea bargain. If so, the citizen making the "citizen's arrest" is left out to hang, as that law will NOT protect them. You have better odds playing the lottery than playing that card.

 

[late08]

Ow my head. I guess what it comes down to is "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"?

 

[PATRON]

I don't know where the intruder is officer,I think my dog ate him.

 

[familyman15]

Could always plant that k bar from the karma section lol

 

[whacko]

How do you plan to hold said invader at gunpoint unitl police arrive? If he gets up off the floor and runs what are you going to do? Shoot him in the back? These threads ****ing suck. Just fodder for the damn anti trolls to use against us. Fire arms are for self defense......keep it simple. If you are armed and fear grave bodily harm use your gun. If you are armed and the invader heads for the door let him go. Either way you ahve used your fire arm to defend your home and family. Anything other than that is a "hero complex" from some immature idiot that has watched way to many ****ing cop movies.

- - - Updated - - -

To a rational being yes it is a felony. HOWEVER, better read the law again. It doesn't say that you are justified if the crime is a felony, it says you are justified if the person is CONVICTED of a felony!! There is miles of difference between the two. Most cases end in a plea bargain and it is VERY COMMON for a felony charge to be dropped to a misdemeanor in the plea bargain. If so, the citizen making the "citizen's arrest" is left out to hang, as that law will NOT protect them. You have better odds playing the lottery than playing that card.

THIS! I don't own a fire arm to arrest people and dream about being a frigging hero. Its to protect me and my family. If the thug heads for the door I'm gonna let him go.

 

[falcon123]

Read C. 278 S. 8A again. It is an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE . . . your attorney has to defend you by pointing out why you should NOT be convicted!! To me (others disagree) this s a far cry from a "castle law" where the person's home is their castle.

You have to be in mortal fear of death/immediate serious injury (to you or family member), articulate that to a judge/jury and convince them of the above exception. It will be very expensive and you may not succeed (meaning you will be the one sent to jail).

Take this scenario:
They broke in in the middle of the night to steal jewelry/TV/computers/etc. . . . they convince the court that it was a simple burglary not with intent to cause serious bodily harm . . . you are in for a world of hurt when they send you to prison for pulling a gun on the guy. And they would probably give the perp probation.

Thats why you should make plans on getting rid of the body ahead of time. Boating accident in the middle of the night.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thats why you should make plans on getting rid of the body ahead of time. Boating accident in the middle of the night.

Good luck to you. We'll be watching for the news stories of your arrest and trial.

 

[fencer]

Thats why you should make plans on getting rid of the body ahead of time. Boating accident in the middle of the night.

These days they don't need a body. Geez- don't you watch CSI or Dexter?

I know you were only kidding... but if you shoot someone, modern forensics will almost definitely reveal your indoor target practice.

 

[PATRON]

Yes it's sad, in some States you can paint your back wall with the bad guys brain matter,but here in MA sir would you like some milk and cookies while you walk out with my TV.As I stand here with a loaded gun ,and watch you do it.You also better hope he does not hurt himself while carrying the TV,or he will sue you.

 

[robbyrob]

What about "citizen's Arrest" ?

 

[Bonesinium]

What about "citizen's Arrest" ?

Dude, the majority of the last dozen posts have included in depth discussion about citizen's arrests. I feel like you haven't even been reading the thread.

See posts 38, 40, 43, 44, 45, 46, 54, 60, 61...

 

[CTpatriot]

OP, the scenario you suggest is as unlikely as Rosie O'Donnell skipping dessert.

I don't think I have ever heard of an instance where a home invader just dropped down and went all prone at the mere sight of an armed occupant.

maybe the OP owns a model 29 with 8 3/8 inch barrel.

 

[Bonesinium]

Here are a few where home invaders were held at gunpoint. I mean, I don't know if they immediately dropped and went prone at the mere sight or not.

Now in the first one the homeowner did fire shots, but apparently had a malfunction, retreated and got another firearm, and then when he went to investigate found the guy proned out! So that is pretty darn close!

Traversa's husband ordered her to stay in the bedroom with the door locked.

When the homeowner got to the kitchen, he found Remley lying on the floor.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/r...holds-burglar-at-gunpoint-until-police-arrive

http://myfox8.com/2015/03/22/north-...lds-intruder-at-gunpoint-until-police-arrive/

http://www.9and10news.com/story/23317560/boyne-city-homeowners-detain-intruder-until-police-arrive

http://www.kenoshanews.com/news/homeowner_holds_burglar_at_bay_until_police_arrive_452516500.html

 

[robbyrob]

Dude, the majority of the last dozen posts have included in depth discussion about citizen's arrests. I feel like you haven't even been reading the thread.

See posts 38, 40, 43, 44, 45, 46, 54, 60, 61...

Apologies, was trying to reply to an old post.

Showed up on the new end.

I see how it works now.

 

[Bonesinium]

It happens.

 

[robjax]

Here are a few where home invaders were held at gunpoint. I mean, I don't know if they immediately dropped and went prone at the mere sight or not.

Now in the first one the homeowner did fire shots, but apparently had a malfunction, retreated and got another firearm, and then when he went to investigate found the guy proned out! So that is pretty darn close!







http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/r...holds-burglar-at-gunpoint-until-police-arrive

http://myfox8.com/2015/03/22/north-...lds-intruder-at-gunpoint-until-police-arrive/

http://www.9and10news.com/story/23317560/boyne-city-homeowners-detain-intruder-until-police-arrive

http://www.kenoshanews.com/news/homeowner_holds_burglar_at_bay_until_police_arrive_452516500.html

I read all of these. I didn't like this quote from the police reported in the kenoshanews article...

“We believe the intruder is fortunate he was not shot by the homeowner. ... We certainly don’t want someone shot in a property crime.”

When someone is home it is not a "property crime". I thought that is why they coined the phrase "home invasion".

Difference being someone is home vs. someone not being home.

Somebody is in my house rummaging through the basement my assumption is he is looking for a tool to use as a weapon.

 

[CTpatriot]

Im not saying im going to shoot as soon as the door opens either, if he bolts back out i doubt he's calling the cops. I understand where everyone is coming from legal wise.
I want to know what scenario is less likely to make me look like a criminal A:
A perp breaks into my home, I grab my pistol and hold him at gun point until the law arrives..(never see thus happening, hed run and take his chances of you shooting him..atleast i would if i were the perp)
Or B)
Perp enters home, I grab my pistol point at him he turns in my direction with a crowbar in hand, and i pump 4 rounds center of mass, call 911 immediately granted the threat is stopped, with the unfortunate side that the 4 rounds were fatal.

Or C) I suspect someones is breaking in Grab my pistol, call 911 put the phone down and shout, like "this home is occupied, you are trespassing blahblah there is a child in here and I have a firearm, give a solid 3-4 warnings that you have a firearm and they should leave police have been notified the whole 9, after all those warnings say the idiot still breaks in can you 'choot em then and have minimal legal repercussions. Id imagine theyd flee the scene once they heard someone..

Granted this is all hypothetical I'd like to know which scenario would be the ideal if you will

i think if it comes down to where you shoot the intruder, dialing 911 comes last after you secure the family, house and collect your thoughts. if he bleeds out in the meantime, then thats his problem. is there even a law that yould have to dial 911 in a self defense shooting?

 

[PeterGV]

It's far more complicated and dangerous trying to hold an intruder at gunpoint for the police. Forget whether it's legal or not. Think about whether it's PRACTICAL or not.

The guy shifts, starts to move, starts to complain... What are you going to do? Tell him, not to move or you'll shoot him? If he DOES start to move after you warn him, DO you shoot him? The cops roll up and you're standing over him in your best Weaver stance... You think the cops are going to be happy to see any of this?

Boys, I'm all for gaming these scenarios. But I'd recommend you think less about what the law allows and more about how things will really, practically, work out.

**** play policeman. It's "everybody accounted for and OK? Good. GTFOOMH, sleazebag!"

 

[teaser452]

I was always taught that you don't point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. I was also taught not to pull the gun unless you intend to use it, like, right now.

So, I guess in this case, why did the OP feel the need to pull the gun? And if he was in imminent fear of harm, why did the trigger not get pulled?

And as others have said, holding a guy at gunpoint? I'm pretty sure when the Police arrive, you're the guy going to jail.

ETA:

Why would you bother holding the dude at gun point if he wasn't a serious threat to your life or your family's life? And if was that serious of a threat, why haven't you already fired? I don't get the mind set.

If it's just some douchebag climbing through a window to fish around for a CD player to sell to get another hit of heroin, I'd tell him to GTFO. I think he would. If he turned to attack me, he'd be dead rather quickly. But if he just left, I don't even think I'd bother calling the police. What would the point be? A lot of wasted time for me and the poor cop taking the report who knows that nobody is going to follow up on it.

I've talked to a lot of the cops in Worcester. They seem to have a pretty good handle on who the trouble makers are. And several have said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Don't fear a break in. Most of the break ins we investigate are drug related. Meaning someone broke into a home where they knew there were drugs and/or cash. Usually by someone who knows the person who lives there."

But someone looking to steal from me? Not killing anyone for that. And also, someone should have recommended Andrew Branca's book, "The Law of Self Defense". No killing or injuring someone because they're stealing your stuff in Massachusetts. Some other states, yeah, no problem. Don't protect your stuff in Massachusetts. It is really that simple.

 

[Bonesinium]

I was always taught that you don't point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. I was also taught not to pull the gun unless you intend to use it, like, right now.

So, I guess in this case, why did the OP feel the need to pull the gun? And if he was in imminent fear of harm, why did the trigger not get pulled?

And as others have said, holding a guy at gunpoint? I'm pretty sure when the Police arrive, you're the guy going to jail.

ETA:

Why would you bother holding the dude at gun point if he wasn't a serious threat to your life or your family's life? And if was that serious of a threat, why haven't you already fired? I don't get the mind set.

It never fails to amaze me how people seem to be incapable of comprehending a scenario where someone may need to pull a firearm, and onces they do conditions change where they no longer need to actually shoot. I'm its also highly disconcerting that this is allegedly how they've been 'trained'. Where are people getting this training of "if you draw a firearm you MUST shoot?" I know that certainly is not what I've been told in use of force training I've received in the military.


Guy attacks you with a knife, you draw firearm, guy immediately drops knife and surrenders. Still must shoot him or you should have never drawn your firearm? That is totally illogical, but that very basic scenario is apparently incomprehensible for some.


So wherever you are getting your training from, get it somewhere else. Because it appears you are being trained in a way that will get you killed, or get someone else killed that isn't actively a threat.

 

[familyman15]

Anyunwelcomed guest in the middle of the night id a potential threat. It isnt my job to distinguish the depth of his intentions. My 2yo is there, enough said drop his ass, then secure the "perimeters" if hes not bleeding fast enough with 2 rounds pump 1 or 2 more

 

[jason19711971]

Throw a kid cap gun at him they lay down some lead

 

[PeterGV]

Directly to the point of this thread: tonight on the WMUR news, a couple woke up in the middle of the night and found an unknown guy sleeping in their guest room. The woman called 911 and the guy "got his gun from the safe" and held the visitor at gunpoint until the cops arrived. Apparently the guy had gone through all their stuff downstairs, and had taken the husbands wallet.

Cops arrested the guy on a variety of property crimes. Guy holding the perp at gun point! No mention of him,

I would like like to the story on WMUR.com, but their web site is a mess.

and yes, this was in New Hampshire.

 

[teaser452]

It never fails to amaze me how people seem to be incapable of comprehending a scenario where someone may need to pull a firearm, and onces they do conditions change where they no longer need to actually shoot. I'm its also highly disconcerting that this is allegedly how they've been 'trained'. Where are people getting this training of "if you draw a firearm you MUST shoot?" I know that certainly is not what I've been told in use of force training I've received in the military.


Guy attacks you with a knife, you draw firearm, guy immediately drops knife and surrenders. Still must shoot him or you should have never drawn your firearm? That is totally illogical, but that very basic scenario is apparently incomprehensible for some.


So wherever you are getting your training from, get it somewhere else. Because it appears you are being trained in a way that will get you killed, or get someone else killed that isn't actively a threat.

Didn't say I was trained. Said I was taught. Next, I'm not sure military training on the use of force would be the same as civilian training on the use of force. Military is there to kill and blow shit upp. Civilian, not so much.

Ever been attacked by a guy wielding a knife? I haven't. But I imagine a guy attacking me with a knife at 20 feet vs 6 ft are 2 Totally different things. IANAL but if you pull a gun on a guy with a knife at 20 feet, I bet you'd get a charge of brandishing. If you pull a gun on a guy at 6 feet, you better shoot, 'cause he's about to stab you.

How is that difficult to understand?

 

[ochmude]

Didn't say I was trained. Said I was taught. Next, I'm not sure military training on the use of force would be the same as civilian training on the use of force. Military is there to kill and blow shit upp. Civilian, not so much.

Ever been attacked by a guy wielding a knife? I haven't. But I imagine a guy attacking me with a knife at 20 feet vs 6 ft are 2 Totally different things. IANAL but if you pull a gun on a guy with a knife at 20 feet, I bet you'd get a charge of brandishing. If you pull a gun on a guy at 6 feet, you better shoot, 'cause he's about to stab you.

How is that difficult to understand?

First, brandishing doesn't exist as a criminal charge. Second, charges would (should) be based on the totality of the circumstances. If the guy with the knife at 20 feet is running at you with the knife held in a threatening manner, you'd be completely justified to pull your gun. If the guy with the knife at 6 feet is opening a box or picking his nails or something, you're advice of "you better shoot" will result in a really short jury deliberation.

 

[Hvymax]

What do you mean "hold them at gun point"? If they does not have a visible weapon and is running for the door, are you going to shoot him in the back?

You might want to review Tennessee v. Garner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

Where did that come from??? Nothing in the OP about that!!! The question is if he surrenders and you hold him with a gun to make sure he doesn't change his mind and become a threat to your life. Considering how persecutors operate you probably have a better than even chance of being persecuted!!!

 

[MuzzleDiscipline]

Another question born from too much media consumption.
It is healthy to consider every circumstance of potential confrontation and even practice your response.
If the situation arises where lethal force becomes a consideration, adrenaline vs training is the first battle to be won.
Basic firearms safety and common sense needs to be applied to any such "preplanning".

How did the perpetrator get on the floor? Did you announce your presence and demand he retreat? Was he into your line of sight instantly and decided to hit the deck?

Having experienced this challenge more than once, simply announcing my presence and demanding their withdrawal was sufficient to prevent employing a weapon. Make no mistake they were at a trigger point where anything less than retreat would have resulted in lethal force because it would have demonstrated to me their intention to cause me harm in my home.

There is wisdom scattered amongst the jokers.

1. You never pull/point a gun at something you don't intend to destroy. This principle is enough to prevent the OP's scenario as the moment the firearm is produced the threat is neutralized by the subsequent accurate bullet placement or why did you produce your weapon?
2. The very first and most important question anyone picking up a weapon needs to be absolutely certain of answering "Are you willing to take a life to save your own or the life of someone else"? Taking a life is the only reason that gun is in your hand.
3. You aren't a cop and you won't be treated as a cop after the round leaves the barrel.
4. Cops like firefighters walk into situations the rest us should be fleeing.
5. Analyzing a life threatening situation in terms of acceptable and legal application of lethal force only makes sense if the situation is unavoidable. Never ever should the possession of a weapon dictate or influence one to engage in behavior likely to require the application of lethal force unless you are a cop. I was taught to carry a gun was to accept a new reality which included running/avoiding confrontation or possibly taking an ass-whipping in order avoid initiating a lethal outcome.

MAKE NO MISTAKE firing your weapon regardless of the effect will change your life forever.

 

[71montess]

Welcome to NES. I always like seeing new members join in the discussion and your question is a valid one that all of us have asked either out loud or to ourselves.

What most people would probably do in the situation you describe, not me mind you, but many others, is beat the ever living snot out of the guy and if the intruder regained consciousness he would have great difficulty evading the police with his broken leg and left eyeball out of it's socket and laying on his cheek. I would never do this as I am but a gentle and compassionate man.

I would strongly advise that if you ever have to call 911, you holster and cover your firearm when the police arrive.

Can we be friends ?

 

[M1911]

Didn't say I was trained. Said I was taught. Next, I'm not sure military training on the use of force would be the same as civilian training on the use of force. Military is there to kill and blow shit upp. Civilian, not so much. Ever been attacked by a guy wielding a knife? I haven't. But I imagine a guy attacking me with a knife at 20 feet vs 6 ft are 2 Totally different things. IANAL but if you pull a gun on a guy with a knife at 20 feet, I bet you'd get a charge of brandishing. If you pull a gun on a guy at 6 feet, you better shoot, 'cause he's about to stab you. How is that difficult to understand?

A guy with a knife 20' away from you can stick that knife in your belly in about 2 seconds. If you haven't done a Tueller drill, I strongly suggest that you do so. It was eye opening for me.

Also, don't expect that just because you shoot someone with a handgun that they stop their attack immediately. Some years back in LA, a police officer was getting out of her car at home. She was shot in her back, with a .357 Magnum. The bullet penetrated her heart. She drew her gun, turned, shot and killed her assailant, and lived to tell the story.

I would consider someone 20' away armed with a knife to be a deadly threat (provided that their behavior was putting me in jeopardy).

 

[nhfiat]

This is why I live in NH. No worries. Someone is Breaking in. Bang. End of story. NH Castle law.