I guess this is a rant of sorts

[Lilorfnannie]

Fine, but... I just want to know why I haven't killed any hookers yet.

I really think you're being sarcastic with that and I don't appreciate it. But I will answer it anyways.

My guess would be that you have sufficient real-world discipline and ability to think consciously in the other areas of your life to balance things out.

yeah, sooo done-

 

[cekim]

Trouble is with video games there's no additional training going on that tells how to be disciplined and react appropriately to violence- but there is a lot of killing hookers and cops and such.

You mean like parenting and stuff

Some people are more or less able to "believe" simulations...

As I recall the study done in the 60's where people were applying electrical shock to actors who were answering questions - approximately 50% refused to continue while 50% accepted instruction/authority to continuing to shock (at least they believed they were shocking people).

Clearly a large portion accepted the "simulation" on face value (including the 50% who can still call themselves human beings, for if they had not believed the simulation, they would not have objected to continuing).

As far as the efficacy of simulation proving that you can "train killers" with video games, I would offer that there are many aspects they are training for that go well beyond "the kill" and even if that aspect is or isn't "trained" the other aspects have value.

On otherwords - it proves nothing...

Bottom line is that parents are supposed to socialize their kids so that they understand right and wrong and will be able to apply that in VERY complex and nuanced ways which if done correctly will allow violent game play and ethical views/actions towards their fellow man...

If you want to blame someone, blame the crappy parents, not the games. The games didn't make them monsters, their parents did...

 

[Lilorfnannie]

Bottom line is that parents are supposed to socialize their kids so that they understand right and wrong and will be able to apply that in VERY complex and nuanced ways which if done correctly will allow violent game play and ethical views/actions towards their fellow man...

If you want to blame someone, blame the crappy parents, not the games. The games didn't make them monsters, their parents did...

Correct, with good parenting these things would be less of a problem. But few parents "parent" nowadays. They don't discipline or punish their kids, they teach them the world owes them a living, they let them rule the household, etc etc. In the absence of parental training the television, movies, video games, music with violent/inappropriate lyrics are the teachers.

So absolutely- it is completely the parent's fault. The various media just trained them in what to do, and society and the school system helped teach them to be sheeples and turn off conscious decision-making skills.

 

[Lilorfnannie]

You mean like parenting and stuff

Some people are more or less able to "believe" simulations...

As I recall the study done in the 60's where people were applying electrical shock to actors who were answering questions - approximately 50% refused to continue while 50% accepted instruction/authority to continuing to shock (at least they believed they were shocking people).

Clearly a large portion accepted the "simulation" on face value (including the 50% who can still call themselves human beings, for if they had not believed the simulation, they would not have objected to continuing).

I have read about that study. That is about whether a person be willing to do what is told to them, even if it meant harming someone else. I think the results would be much different today. That is not addressing what I was talking about though, which was that the subconscious mind doesn't differentiate between fantasy and reality, but accepts it uncritically. Two different things.

 

[TomH]

There's something I don't understand about your argument... so when my Father went under a 16 yr old girl in her mothers car because she pulled out of a side road without looking/seeing him coming down the main road, it was his fault? It was his fault that she didn't see him and basically ran him down?

I don't follow, please elaborate.

I have to agree, the motorcycle analogy is terrible. You can get killed easily through no fault of your own. Nothing like gun ownership at all.

 

[RI_John]

I have to agree, the motorcycle analogy is terrible. You can get killed easily through no fault of your own. Nothing like gun ownership at all.

Unless you train at Tactical Response and have to stand next to a target down range while your classmates, sorry, I mean switched on operators, squeeze off a few dozen rounds!

 

[drgrant]

Sorry I'm going to clip it there for the sake of brevity. Just wanted to indicate which post I was responding to.

First off I don't know who Grossman is and haven't read his book.

The only reason I drew this assumption was is that he sort of insinuates similar things... you might find it interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

You're exaggerating what I'm saying and bringing things into it that I'm not saying.

Not really, you've dropped the assertion that computer games "make people dangerous" and you haven't really even attempted to make that connection in a concrete manner, other than referencing this stuff about the subconscious mind, but not telling us anything about how this can actually affect real life decisions being made by the same person.

I'm still waiting for the tons of news report of the kid that jumped off a mountain and tumbled down the other side because "He said he did this all the time in GTA and didn't get hurt. " Or that guy that said "Yeah, I jumped off the bridge because I collected a 1-up a while ago and figured even if I died I would just get to restart, it was a gut reaction, I guess. "

I'm also still trying to figure out why I haven't gunned down a whole bunch of pesky Sikhs and Chinese bodyguard types, because if what you've
suggested is correct, a lot of them should have died at my hands.

What I don't appreciate is you saying that I'm insulting the folks here, because I'm not.

Well, certainly felt like it, maybe my gut reaction was faulty...

I don't completely disagree that there might be some subconscious influences caused by "training" but don't really think that this training will trump someone's moral compass in an otherwise mentally healthy individual. (Course Janet Napolitano probably disagrees with me and that's why gun owners, veterans, and other folks are on her "list". )

FWIW I had written more but Cekim had basically just said what I was going
to say, in a lot less words.

-Mike

 

[Lilorfnannie]

The only reason I drew this assumption was is that he sort of insinuates similar things... you might find it interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing



Not really, you've dropped the assertion that computer games "make people dangerous" and you haven't really even attempted to make that connection in a concrete manner, other than referencing this stuff about the subconscious mind, but not telling us anything about how this can actually affect real life decisions being made by the same person.

I'm still waiting for the tons of news report of the kid that jumped off a mountain and tumbled down the other side because "He said he did this all the time in GTA and didn't get hurt. " Or that guy that said "Yeah, I jumped off the bridge because I collected a 1-up a while ago and figured even if I died I would just get to restart, it was a gut reaction, I guess. "

I'm also still trying to figure out why I haven't gunned down a whole bunch of pesky Sikhs and Chinese bodyguard types, because if what you've
suggested is correct, a lot of them should have died at my hands.



Well, certainly felt like it, maybe my gut reaction was faulty...

I don't completely disagree that there might be some subconscious influences caused by "training" but don't really think that this training will trump someone's moral compass in an otherwise mentally healthy individual. (Course Janet Napolitano probably disagrees with me and that's why gun owners, veterans, and other folks are on her "list". )

FWIW I had written more but Cekim had basically just said what I was going
to say, in a lot less words.

-Mike

I didn't say that computer games make people dangerous. What I'm saying is that it fills the subconscious mind with images that it can't distinguish from reality, and this is training. What's dangerous is this combined with the lack of safeguards in our society. Safeguards like parental training, teaching in morals, self-discipline, and other training.

The problem is that while this kind of thing almost certainly won't trump a healthy person's moral compass- a lot of people now do not have a healthy moral compass or mental stability. They believe in situational ethics (morality depends on the situation), for example they believe it would be o.k. to steal if they "really needed" it or the other person was too weak or was "asking for it" or if they just want it bad enough. I could go on and on with how far our society has come from anything like what would produce a mentally healthy, moral individual. So sure, most people's basic mental health and moral compass would override the subconscious training they are getting from the various media. But there's a LOT of people that are not mentally healthy, have little to no moral compass, little parenting, little if any training in self discipline, and a lot of training from school and society telling them to just go by their "feelings" (subconscious) and react- not think for themselves. Nevermind the vast section of society where the children have been terribly abused by their parents' alcoholism, drug abuse, physical/sexual abuse, neglect, divorce, shack-up boyfriend/girlfriends in and out the door, and so on. It takes it's toll.

It's worse than any point in American history- and while people have always been people and there's always been violence and sickos and so on, now we video games and television and movies to teach them how to rape and kill and steal, and fill their minds and hearts with images of how easy it is and how it's o.k. to do it if they have a "reason." Just lovely.

So one has to wonder- what would happen if TSHTF and the economy takes a REAL nosedive, and all these spoiled, lazy punk kids decide they "need" your stuff? They've been training in their minds how to kill and steal all this time and been taught situational ethics so they have no moral compass- I'm saying that the video games/movies/etc etc help bridge that gap and that's dangerous.

 

[Bob P]

A prime example of this was that special forces operator (I think he was a SEAL) who had his dog shot by some punk kids. He was literally "trained
to kill" and he could have shot all those bastards and buried them on his farm at the drop of a hat, but he didn't- because his conscious mind controls his decision making process. Even someone that has been trained to kill" still has the ability to make those kinds of decisions.

OK, Disclaimer time:

I don't think violent videogames cause you to become a killer. As Z0mbie and you both point out, it's still a concious decision and the rational mind understands the consequences - both legal and moral - of acting.

Couple of points I wanted to make about Lil's arguments though. What she is arguing is the thought that gamers as WELL as slasher flick fans become de-sensitised to violent images and this lowers - slightly - the inhibition against killing. I have NO idea if this is true or not. I'm not a shrink, I've never been in the military nor have I access to any form of scientific survey's etc. I'm just trying to clarify what (I believe) her position is/was. I don't see her saying that playing these games or watching these movies will make you a killer. There are plenty of other factors involved there. In the quote above, the ex-operator DIDN'T kill the kids because along with the weapons training, the how to kill training he was training very heavily in SELF DISCIPLINE.

Sure, the military trains you how to kill. It ALSO trains you how NOT to kill.

The rest of us get this training as well - from our parents etc. It's why Z0mbi isn't out wasting hookers (as far as we know) . Proponants of that position argue that some kids DON'T get this part of the training as their parents suck. Add the desensitization of the movies and the games in with the lack of an instilled moral compass and you've got people at risk.

Not supporting that theory, just clarifying it.

 

[M1911]

Millions and millions of us play first person shooters on a regular basis. Even as more and more people play such games, taking the country as a whole, the number of murders has gone continued to decline. Most murders in the US are drug related.

 

[Lilorfnannie]

OK, Disclaimer time:

I don't think violent videogames cause you to become a killer. As Z0mbie and you both point out, it's still a concious decision and the rational mind understands the consequences - both legal and moral - of acting.

Couple of points I wanted to make about Lil's arguments though. What she is arguing is the thought that gamers as WELL as slasher flick fans become de-sensitised to violent images and this lowers - slightly - the inhibition against killing. I have NO idea if this is true or not. I'm not a shrink, I've never been in the military nor have I access to any form of scientific survey's etc. I'm just trying to clarify what (I believe) her position is/was. I don't see her saying that playing these games or watching these movies will make you a killer. There are plenty of other factors involved there. In the quote above, the ex-operator DIDN'T kill the kids because along with the weapons training, the how to kill training he was training very heavily in SELF DISCIPLINE.

Sure, the military trains you how to kill. It ALSO trains you how NOT to kill.

The rest of us get this training as well - from our parents etc. It's why Z0mbi isn't out wasting hookers (as far as we know) . Proponants of that position argue that some kids DON'T get this part of the training as their parents suck. Add the desensitization of the movies and the games in with the lack of an instilled moral compass and you've got people at risk.

Not supporting that theory, just clarifying it.

Thanks, that was a good way of putting it

 

[Lilorfnannie]

Millions and millions of us play first person shooters on a regular basis. Even as more and more people play such games, taking the country as a whole, the number of murders has gone continued to decline. Most murders in the US are drug related.

Well, I would say that the drugs are the final straw to removing one's inhibitions and moral compass & critical thinking skills.

I don't know if murders are down or not- I don't trust the statistics. I know the media lies to us. I know that "Mayberry" doesn't exist hardly at all any more, but it used to, all across America. It doesn't now!

I know that child abuse and molestation and other rape is at an all-time high. I was reading a site yesterday that said "1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused before their 18th birthday. The median age reported for sexual abuse is 9 years old." (clicky) I think I saw that site linked to here on this forum yesterday- thank you to whoever it was. Now those things are not about sex but still about violence and the sick society we have now- and people think the internet with the instant access to all kinds of sicko porn isn't part of the problem? (now I'm not getting into a debate about free speech or laws or the right for people to choose what they do sexually or any of that- what people choose to click on is solely their responsibility.) It is the same concept as what I was saying- feeding the mind and heart predisposes the actions, and like Bob put it so well, breaks down the inhibitions against such sicko behavior.

So maybe murders are down, maybe not. But I know other kinds of violence, drug addiction, crimes etc are at an all-time high.

 

[Bob P]

Well, I would say that the drugs are the final straw to removing one's inhibitions and moral compass & critical thinking skills.

I don't know if murders are down or not- I don't trust the statistics. I know the media lies to us. I know that "Mayberry" doesn't exist hardly at all any more, but it used to, all across America. It doesn't now!

I know that child abuse and molestation and other rape is at an all-time high. I was reading a site yesterday that said "1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused before their 18th birthday. The median age reported for sexual abuse is 9 years old." (clicky) I think I saw that site linked to here on this forum yesterday- thank you to whoever it was. Now those things are not about sex but still about violence and the sick society we have now- and people think the internet with the instant access to all kinds of sicko porn isn't part of the problem? (now I'm not getting into a debate about free speech or laws or the right for people to choose what they do sexually or any of that- what people choose to click on is solely their responsibility.) It is the same concept as what I was saying- feeding the mind and heart predisposes the actions, and like Bob put it so well, breaks down the inhibitions against such sicko behavior.

So maybe murders are down, maybe not. But I know other kinds of violence, drug addiction, crimes etc are at an all-time high.

Historically, sexual abuse of children (and to a lesser extent Rape) was an under-reported crime. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that ACTUAL number were down from 20+ years ago as the 'sweep it under the rug' mentality presented a lack of consequence for those inclined to do it.

 

[Lilorfnannie]

Historically, sexual abuse of children (and to a lesser extent Rape) was an under-reported crime. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that ACTUAL number were down from 20+ years ago as the 'sweep it under the rug' mentality presented a lack of consequence for those inclined to do it.

Possibly. I don't know of any way of finding out. Maybe poll some social workers- I bet if we asked some social workers that have been doing it for 20+ years they could say.

I still think that sicko kiddie porn on the internet allows the behavior to be fed and flourish, whereas before there was ready access to that kind of abomination it was stifled somewhat by heavy disapproval from society. Now they even have websites and movements justifying the sick bastards.

But I agree it has always been much under-reported and it is more openly dealt with and so you could be right as well.

 

[Jimmy2Times]

I think that - some of them at least - are projecting. They don't trust themselves with a gun, and therefore don't want anybody else to have one.

I think a greater percentage are afraid, and a little bit ashamed of themselves because they're not self sufficient in any way - let alone when it comes to self defense. They don't want to be reminded that there are people that are willing and able to take care of themselves, because they are not.

ETA: I'm talking about antis in general, not just gamers.

Very well put. That has to be one of the best, most accurate perspectives I have ever heard or read.

 

[livefreeorhere]

OK, Disclaimer time:

I don't think violent videogames cause you to become a killer. As Z0mbie and you both point out, it's still a concious decision and the rational mind understands the consequences - both legal and moral - of acting.

Couple of points I wanted to make about Lil's arguments though. What she is arguing is the thought that gamers as WELL as slasher flick fans become de-sensitised to violent images and this lowers - slightly - the inhibition against killing. I have NO idea if this is true or not. I'm not a shrink, I've never been in the military nor have I access to any form of scientific survey's etc. I'm just trying to clarify what (I believe) her position is/was. I don't see her saying that playing these games or watching these movies will make you a killer. There are plenty of other factors involved there. In the quote above, the ex-operator DIDN'T kill the kids because along with the weapons training, the how to kill training he was training very heavily in SELF DISCIPLINE.

Sure, the military trains you how to kill. It ALSO trains you how NOT to kill.

The rest of us get this training as well - from our parents etc. It's why Z0mbi isn't out wasting hookers (as far as we know) . Proponants of that position argue that some kids DON'T get this part of the training as their parents suck. Add the desensitization of the movies and the games in with the lack of an instilled moral compass and you've got people at risk.

Not supporting that theory, just clarifying it.

I concur.

I haven't read the report she mentions so I can't comment on wether I agree or not. but... I remember from my social phsyc days (vaguely) that in the field of psychology there seem to be a number of conflicting opinions that are both equally supported by data. the bottom line is we really don't know much about how the human mind works. It's what frustrated me to no end about psychology but also made me love it!

 

[M1911]

Well, I would say that the drugs are the final straw to removing one's inhibitions and moral compass & critical thinking skills.

I don't know if murders are down or not- I don't trust the statistics. I know the media lies to us. I know that "Mayberry" doesn't exist hardly at all any more, but it used to, all across America. It doesn't now!

1) The murder rate has decreased in the years since first person shooters became widespread (1990s).

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html

The wise statistician would realize, looking at that data and at the number of first person shooter games in use, that there is no correlation between the two, let alone any evidence of causation.

2) Most drug murders DO NOT involve drug users. They are drug dealers shooting each other over turf or to steal product and/or proceeds. That has nothing to do with "inhibitions." These aren't moral people led astray by the conditioning of first person shooters. They are criminals.

 

[M1911]

I haven't read the report she mentions so I can't comment on wether I agree or not. but... I remember from my social phsyc days (vaguely) that in the field of psychology there seem to be a number of conflicting opinions that are both equally supported by data. the bottom line is we really don't know much about how the human mind works. It's what frustrated me to no end about psychology but also made me love it!

Most people, including the media, have absolutely zero understanding of the difference between correlation and causation. Correlation does not imply causation. But most people either haven't taken statistics 101, took it but don't remember it, or took it but didn't understand it in the first place.

There is a very dangerous chemical that we all have widespread exposure to. This chemical can be found in our homes, our workplaces, and in the VERY AIR WE BREATHE. There is a perfect, 100% correlation between exposure to this chemical, dihydrogen oxide, and death! And worst yet, even though thousands of people each year die of over-exposure to dihydrogen oxide, our own government spends BILLIONS of dollars every year pumping this dangerous chemical directly into our homes!

 

[M1911]

I know that child abuse and molestation and other rape is at an all-time high.

The rate of rape in the US is at an all-time high?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=us+r...YN&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11

1) It is not at an all-time high.
2) Back in the days of Mayberry, people who reported rape were vilified. It has always been underreported by it is likely far less underreported today than it was 30 years ago.

 

[Business]

+1 totally agree

 

[z0mbi]

I really think you're being sarcastic with that and I don't appreciate it. But I will answer it anyways.

My guess would be that you have sufficient real-world discipline and ability to think consciously in the other areas of your life to balance things out.

yeah, sooo done-

Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic. At this point in the conversation you failed to qualify any of your claims with anything other than absolutes. You didn't say, as far as I can remember, that only the really sick minds would actually be affected by your subconscious training theory, and therefore normal healthy people are NOT trained video game killers.

Everything You were saying was telling me that I should be a killer by now, and I'm not, and I wanted you to explain why to me, because the 'why' I believe invalidates your entire argument.

 

[z0mbi]

Couple of points I wanted to make about Lil's arguments though. What she is arguing is the thought that gamers as WELL as slasher flick fans become de-sensitised to violent images and this lowers - slightly - the inhibition against killing. I have NO idea if this is true or not.

On a personal experience level, I know that this is not true at all. I am I guess what you would call a 'hardcore gamer'. I make video games for a living. I play video games every day. I am completely surrounded by make-believe violence 24/7. I am also a huge movie buff, and love violent movies. When I play video games and watch movies, the violence is entertaining.

When I see REAL violence, or gore... my stomach turns. When I see an accident I get a knot in my gut. If I accidentally flick the TV to the medical channel and catch an operation in progress, I get squeamish. When I saw that video of a captured journalist getting his head sawed off... I stopped it a few seconds into it. I couldn't watch it, because it horrified me and I felt sick.

There is absolutely, in my experience, no similarities whatsoever between make-believe violence and real violence. Period.

 

[drgrant]

I didn't say that computer games make people dangerous.

QFT:

The gamers that do first-person shooters but don't have any real-world experience or discipline are the most dangerous.

Yet you still haven't tried to back this up in any way other than talking
about how people learn things in their subconscious and that, somehow, makes them more likely to kill or do other bad things.

To go mildly back on topic here, what about the hypocrite wussbags that Bob cited at the beginning of the thread- Do you really think that those
people are capable of killing someone?

What's dangerous is this combined with the lack of safeguards in our society. Safeguards like parental training, teaching in morals, self-discipline, and other training.

Aren't these things the REAL problems?

This "blame the object" tack is not much different than the same tripe the antis bring up about guns. They argue that the presence of guns somehow "enable" criminal behavior, but yet, they can never back this up with anything more than hyperbole.

I guess I'm not seeing the hard science here. The link between the two is weak.

They believe in situational ethics (morality depends on the situation), for example they believe it would be o.k. to steal if they "really needed" it or the other person was too weak or was "asking for it" or if they just want it bad enough.

You're using an overly fancy term to describe rationalization. Everyone tries to rationalize their actions, whether the choice they made is right or
wrong, or is "legitimate" is a different story.

It's worse than any point in American history- and while people have always been people and there's always been violence and sickos and so on, now we video games and television and movies to teach them how to rape and kill and steal, and fill their minds and hearts with images of how easy it is and how it's o.k. to do it if they have a "reason." Just lovely.

People were doing that kind of thing long before there were violent videogames...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKTw-UHalZc&

Yeah, all these people subconciously learned their behavior from GTA.. which didn't exist yet.

So one has to wonder- what would happen if TSHTF and the economy takes a REAL nosedive, and all these spoiled, lazy punk kids decide they "need" your stuff? They've been training in their minds how to kill and steal all this time and been taught situational ethics so they have no moral compass- I'm saying that the video games/movies/etc etc help bridge that gap and that's dangerous.

Sorry, but that just seems bogus to me- People will steal stuff because they didn't learn at a very young age that it was "wrong" to do it, not because you could do it in some video game. I don't see how a game reduces or changes any built in inhibitions they might have towards doing
these sorts of things.


-Mike

 

[Bob P]

On a personal experience level, I know that this is not true at all. I am I guess what you would call a 'hardcore gamer'. I make video games for a living. I play video games every day. I am completely surrounded by make-believe violence 24/7. I am also a huge movie buff, and love violent movies. When I play video games and watch movies, the violence is entertaining.

When I see REAL violence, or gore... my stomach turns. When I see an accident I get a knot in my gut. If I accidentally flick the TV to the medical channel and catch an operation in progress, I get squeamish. When I saw that video of a captured journalist getting his head sawed off... I stopped it a few seconds into it. I couldn't watch it, because it horrified me and I felt sick.

There is absolutely, in my experience, no similarities whatsoever between make-believe violence and real violence. Period.

Personally, I agree with you. I've been playing FPS's since Wolf 3D and I get woozy at actual blood, I was just paraphrasing the arguments.

 

[pdm]

On a personal experience level, I know that this is not true at all. I am I guess what you would call a 'hardcore gamer'. I make video games for a living. I play video games every day. I am completely surrounded by make-believe violence 24/7. I am also a huge movie buff, and love violent movies. When I play video games and watch movies, the violence is entertaining.

When I see REAL violence, or gore... my stomach turns. When I see an accident I get a knot in my gut. If I accidentally flick the TV to the medical channel and catch an operation in progress, I get squeamish. When I saw that video of a captured journalist getting his head sawed off... I stopped it a few seconds into it. I couldn't watch it, because it horrified me and I felt sick.

There is absolutely, in my experience, no similarities whatsoever between make-believe violence and real violence. Period.

Totally agree. Although, I knew I'd get sick if I watched the Daniel Pearl video, so I skipped it completely.

 

[M1911]

Totally agree. Although, I knew I'd get sick if I watched the Daniel Pearl video, so I skipped it completely.

I'll gladly play Insurgency for an hour or two.

I went out of my way to avoid the Daniel Pearl video, and other similar videos. I turn off the TV or change the channels if they are showing the World Trade Center attacks. I just can't watch that.

 

[Bob P]

Just to even more, there are several studies that suggest that not only do violent videogames NOT contribute to/cause violence but that they actually provide a safe outlet for agressive impulses.

 

[Becka]

He heh. I keep hearing those voices too - I didn't realize it was the guns. I thought it was it was the ghost who keeps leaving all the full ammo cans down in my basement.

Now we know where Rockrivr1's ammo has gone!

Ok, I must be losing my mind or something. Maybe it's the fever and I'm hallucinating or something. But I very strongly remember buying a box of .380 JHPs for my P3AT. I also remember bringing them into the house last week and now I can't find them anywhere. I have no recollection of where I put them other then they came into the house. Their not in either safe or in the reloading cabinet or in any of the other typical places I put ammo. They are not in any closet or drawer in the house.

Hummmmmm. The ammo monster must eaten them. Damn, getting old and forgetful really sucks.

 

[Bill Nance]

It's not psychobabble, it's well-known fact. (well, well-known to those who study these things.)

I don't allow first-person shooter games in the house (for the kids or myself)- guns yes, first-person shooters, no. They teach an entirely wrong view of killing and how & why to respond to violence.

Ok, this stuff has been claimed for years and there is not ONE...Not a SINGLE peer-reviewed study that correlates video games with real-life violent behavior.

I've seen the data that's been published and it invariably breaks down when trying to correlate the two. They substitute "Aggression measures" (Which are not even kinda empirical) to "simulate" violence.

Please point to a single peer-reviewed study that shows a causal link between video games and violence.

**crickets**

 

[RI_John]

Please point to a single peer-reviewed study that shows a causal link between video games and violence.

**crickets**

I can only speak for myself when I say that playing "Plants vs. Zombies" (a highly addictive game, BTW) has caused me to hate zombies even more and want to kill them so bad it hurts! That may not be "peer reviewed", but it's the truth! God I hate zombies....