High Capacity TRAP

[Chris]

Since the sunset of the Federal AW ban, manufacturers are now making 'full capacity' magazines once again.

Massachusetts has it's own AW ban and in that law, magazines over 10 round capacity are illegal.
MOD CLARIFICATION: ONLY hi-cap mags MADE after 9/13/94 are ILLEGAL in MA. "Pre-ban" mags are perfectly legal in MA if you have the proper LTC (A for pistol/rifle mags, B for rifle mags only)

Here's the problem:

You can go to just about any state in New England and BUY a >10 round magazine with no ID, license, etc. It's just a box and spring. As soon as you bring that item across the Mass line, you are an instant felon facing up to 10 years in prison and/or up to a $10,000 fine.

Now for the bad news. There is no way to tell what is a pre-ban and what isn't. Manufacturers are not marking their magazines and in many cases, they look identical today as they did 10+ years ago.

You can be sure that any legal issues about your magazines will have you on the defensive to prove that you aquired them in a legal manor and that they are truly a pre-ban item. While such cases have not occured as of yet, it is only a matter of time that some politically active AG decides to push it.

Recommendation: Do NOT use any magazine > 10 round capacity unless you have the original bill of sale that shows it is legal. Be careful at gun shows and at dealers when buying any magazine > 10 rounds as the potential penalty (and loss of license) is not worth the issue of a glorified PEZ dispensor.

MOD CLARIFICATION: Bill of Sale for Mags is irrelevant regarding the law for hi-cap mags. See my clarification above.

Edited by LenS - Mod, hopefully to clarify this issue . . . which appears to be confusing to some readers.

 

[TonyD]

Yet another way to trap citizens, turn them into felons and permanently strip their Constitutional rights.

 

[KMaurer]

The way I see it, the only problem is if one were careless enough to purchase and possess a standard capacity magazine that was not available prior to the implementation of the federal cosmetically-challanged gun ban. In that case, it's demonstrably pre-ban.

OTOH, as long as the patent numbers and other identifying information on the magazine are indistinguishable from those on a pre-ban magazine, then I'd simply assert that the magazine is pre-ban. After all, to adopt the Newsweek evidentiary standard, it might be. At that point it's up to the prosecutor to present at least some credible evidence showing that it isn't. Yeah, this is the People's Republic of Massachusetts, where all that stuff about innocent until proven guilty is inpoerative where guns are concerned. Still, I refuse to be cowed into acting like a good little sheep, just because the wolves might not aprove.

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ken is right, but one more issue . . .

Look for mfg design changes that could be used to prove post-ban. e.g. Glock has had multi-revs of their mags over the years, I saw a picture of a current production 20rd (USGI, I think) AR15/M16 mag and it was curved . . . whereas all pre-ban 20s were straight.

We still need to be a lot more careful than we should have to be!

 

[Lynne]

Yet another way to trap citizens, turn them into felons and permanently strip their Constitutional rights.

Yup. [roll]

 

[traveler57]

Massachusetts has it's own AW ban and in that law, magazines over 10 round capacity are illegal.

Recommendation: Do NOT use any magazine > 10 round capacity unless you have the original bill of sale that shows it is legal. Be careful at gun shows and at dealers when buying any magazine > 10 rounds as the potential penalty (and loss of license) is not worth the issue of a glorified PEZ dispensor.

Okay Chris (and Len),
I just found this old post on mags, so I will continue my questions from the Gun Show thread. (Trying to stay a "good forum guy.")

Example- I just bought one of the Glock 22s that are being sold at MA dealers. (They are a batch of guns that came from the state police, I think, and then refurbished by Glock.) They all come with 2 or 3 hi-cap mags.

So you recomendation is to go out now and buy 10 rd mags?? I have the bill of sale, but I haven't fully examined them for any markings. Also, I will have to review the bill of sale again to see what the wording is. I will check all this when I get back to Mass this weekend.

I, of course, only want to follow every MA law to the letter. (i.e. I don't ever want to lose my LTC A). But, I don't want to be paranoid and only use 10 rd mags, if my 17 rd mags are fully MA legal.

Question- How many members here, carry and/or shoot at the range using hi-cap mags?
Or does everyone do what Chris does, and use only 10 rd mags?

Thanks, and I am looking forward to meeting a lot of people at the Marlboro show or maybe the Octoberfest.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Using my Mod powers [lol] I have edited Chris' post and added some info to the original post that hopefully will clarify some of the confusion.

Pre-ban MFD mags are perfectly legal in MA (if you have proper LTC), and I see no need to get rid of them or to carry a bill of sale around with you.

I do agree with Chris that if persecuted, you will definitely be on the defensive to prove you didn't break the law. That is NOT how our Founding Fathers designed the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but that is how our dictators/gov't uses the system against the common person.

If a dealer gives you a BOS that says a mag is pre-ban and it isn't pre-ban, the BOS isn't likely to buy you much relief in court (i.e. "ignorance of the law is no excuse" premise)! Also, how can you prove that a particular BOS matches with a precise mag in your collection?

I do not have a good answer to what someone should/should not do here, other than diligently check mags for "fine print" LE/Mil only markings (some are damn small), know and trust your source of supply (I would trust Four Seasons, but not trust most dealers at gun shows - based on personal experience) and do some research regarding any design changes that the mfr might have implemented since 9/13/94.

 

[FPrice]

Manufacturers are not marking their magazines and in many cases, they look identical today as they did 10+ years ago.

Not completely true. I went down to Hoffman's in Newington, CT several months ago. They had several boxes of 20- and 30-round 5.56mm AR-15 type magazines. I was going to pick some up so checked for any "Restricted" markings. They did not have this logo, but they did have what appears to be dates on them in the manner of "5-04".

I have seen some what I assume are post-ban pistol magazines that have similar "date" markings in the form of a circle with the numbers 1-12 around it and what might be a year marking inside or close by.

Buyer beware.

 

[Republic of Mass]

I have 3 pre-ban 12'ers for my 229. And thats what I carry all the time. The 10 rounders are just for fun at the range.

The 10 rounders all have the sundial date code. Its a circle, with the arrow pointint to the month of manufacture, and the year of manufacturer in the middle.

Even the post-ban full-cap's ive seen dont have any date code. Just dont get busted with a full-cap for a gun that wasn't available before the ban....

 

[traveler57]

Glock mags

Well, after examining my Glock 22 hi-cap mags, I can find ZERO markings that would mark it with any date, or model number, serial numbers, etc.

So unless there was a clear design/shape change pre & post 1994, it seems that it will be impossible to simply pickup a Glock mag and know when it was made.

Anyone out there seen differences in any Glock mags? I will plan to carry my mags with me to the gun show and make some comparisons.

Dan

 

[Len-2A Training]

Re: Glock mags

Well, after examining my Glock 22 hi-cap mags, I can find ZERO markings that would mark it with any date, or model number, serial numbers, etc.

So unless there was a clear design/shape change pre & post 1994, it seems that it will be impossible to simply pickup a Glock mag and know when it was made.

Anyone out there seen differences in any Glock mags? I will plan to carry my mags with me to the gun show and make some comparisons.

Dan

I am not a Glock person, but even I know that Glock has gone thru something like 4 design changes/revs of their mags. Whether this is true for every model or just the 17/19s, I do not know. Start with Non-Drop-free and Drop-free in high cap/low cap, etc. and work your way forward. I'm sure that the folks on Glocktalk can tell you all about this stuff.

 

[FPrice]

Anyone out there seen differences in any Glock mags?

I have heard that there is one (very minor) difference but I cannot coffirm it. Yet.

 

[MikeD]

Heres a pic of the differences on Glock mags. Usually the 1st gen. mags are all pre-ban ndf and some early 2nd gen. mags were pre-ban. I think that the preban 2nd gen. mags have the caliber marking about 1/4 inch down from the top, while 3rd gen. and newer mags are marked about 3/4 inch from the top.

This is not gospel,but my understanding...which isn't valid in most areas! [lol]

 

[Len-2A Training]

MikeD,

Very useful info. Thanks for posting that.

 

[Cross-X]

The reason why post ban Glock mags have the caliber markings higher on the mag body than the pre-bans is a throw back to the post-ban LE mags.

When Glock made the LE markings on those mags, they had to move up the caliber line to make room for all the LE markings.

When the AW ban sunsetted, they just go rid of the LE marking but kept the caliber marking where it was during the AW ban days.

Make sense?

 

[traveler57]

I have found more info on another forum on the Glock mag pre/post ban
question.

I will email the new pics to Derek, since I am not smart enough to put them in this post. I have asked him to post them for me in another post.

From these pics and from what i have been told here and other places, it seems that the recent Glocks that are at a large number of area shops are selling with what "appears" to be post-ban mags. i.e. the ones in the box with the refurbished Glocks have the caliber markings right at the top of the mag. And the side view of these mags tells a convincing story in telling them apart.

 

[Cross-X]

So long as those mags are not large capacity (more than ten rounds), it is perfectly legal for MA residents to buy, possess, and use these new production mags.

 

[traveler57]

Sorry Darius, I may have been confusing in my most recent post, but I am only speaking on hi-cap mags in this whole thread.

I realize that all new 10 rds mags are legal in MA.

Next time you are in a local shop, take a look at the hi-cap mags that are being sold with the refurb. Glocks. Let me know what you think.
(Note- Derek will post the "useful?" pics I found later tonight.)

Dan

 

[Admin]

I'll have them up as soon as I can get to them. It's been hell day.

 

[Cross-X]

Dan,

I will take a look. I suspect that some gun shop owners don't actually know what a new production hi-cap mag looks like. In a busy shop like Four Seasons, with all the volume they do, stuff could slip past them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Dan,

I will take a look. I suspect that some gun shop owners don't actually know what a new production hi-cap mag looks like. In a busy shop like Four Seasons, with all the volume they do, stuff could slip past them.

Yes, but Carl DOES look and check to be extra-legal! He may miss something, but it isn't for the want of trying!

Many other dealers really don't give a damn what they sell (and I've had some tell me as much), as long as they "sell" what they have. Thus, you need to be very diligent as they aren't liable for your possession of illegal goods!

 

[Admin]

As requested.

 

[traveler57]

I don't really want to beat this topic to death. But, it is a great example of what the stupid laws of MA are doing to normal law abiding citizens. (and maybe even dealers.) Gun manufacturers just can't deal with making "special" mags just to keep MA happy. And I don't blame them. The same reason that most manuf. have given up on making the Mass AG happy. Not worth it for them. and we, the law abiding citizen, are the ones to pay the price.

So, we are on our own to determine what is what, and when a mag was made. What a great state! And trust me I for one do not blame any dealer. And yes, FS is one shop that really goes out of their way to help us wade through the BS. Look at their site and see "the guns you cannot buy in Mass."

Only 10 more years left, and my youngest graduates high school and goes off to college...... But I think I go ahead and buy my property in the West now....

 

[Cross-X]

Go west if you must, but stay the heck out of California. There may be a very good reason some gunnies spell Calfornia with a K!

 

[dwarven1]

Only 10 more years left, and my youngest graduates high school and goes off to college...... But I think I go ahead and buy my property in the West now....

You could look North... VT and NH are beautiful states; NH has intelligent gun laws, and VT doesn't have any gun laws at all. (Help me out here, Nickel!)

Ross

 

[traveler57]

True, I don't really have to go 2000 miles away. Just that I grew up in Colorado, Wyoming, North Carolina and Arkansas, and yes, life is much different out there. And I going to Denver next month and toyed with the idea of looking at mountain property.... (I can't let my true-blue New Englander wife know.)

But, actually, when I arrived in Mass in 1979, I starting hiking and camping in NH, VT and Maine all the time to "get some taste of the country life." And, I agree that they are actually pretty nice states, once you get out of the tourist areas. And, now I have a camp in northern Maine, about 5 hours away. So I agree that New England is not all bad.

And yes, once I get my NR LTCs for NH and ME I will be able to be able to enjoy New England a bit more.

 

[KMaurer]

Actually, Vermont does have some gun laws. It's generally illegal for students to carry guns in schools, for most people to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle, to carry a firearm in or on the grounds of any state institution, or to possess or carry a firearm "with the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man."

Ken

 

[Nickle]

Only 10 more years left, and my youngest graduates high school and goes off to college...... But I think I go ahead and buy my property in the West now....

You could look North... VT and NH are beautiful states; NH has intelligent gun laws, and VT doesn't have any gun laws at all. (Help me out here, Nickel!)

Ross

We only have 2 significant gun laws.

1. No silencers allowed.

2. Can't have a loaded rifle or shotgun in (or touching) a motor vehicle.

We don't need no stinkin' CCW permits, either. Want to carry? If you're a US citizen, with an ID, and are legal to possess a firearm, you may carry it concealed (or open).

Like all states, we do have limits on WHERE we may carry.

And our laws go after the REAL crime. Pull out your gun in a wrong situation, you WILL be charged with Reckless Endangerment.

NH is almost as good as VT. CCW permit? FAST processing.

 

[Hawgleg44]

I compared some Glock mags recently, and there is another difference between the pre-ban FML and post-ban, non-LE marked FML mags. Yes, the caliber markings are in a different place than the pre-ban mags, but the plastic is shaped differently on the side of the mag, also.

There was a post on one of the gun sites with the difference, but I forgot where I saw it now. I'm not into Glocks, so I don't concern myself with them, but beware, there is a difference.

Also, S&W Sigma magazines are another issue mentioned a few times on the S&W Forum. So, here's some info on them in case anyone is interested:
ALL pre-ban S&W Sigma mags stick out of the bottom of the grip a little. The .40 S&W mags hold 15-rounds and the 9mm mags hold 17-rounds. But, they also made these mags after the ban, but they will all have the LE markings (stamped on the .40's and laser engraved on the 9mm's).

The currently produced, unmarked, full-capacity magazines for the Sigmas are the later model, flush fit magazines. The .40's hold 14-rounds and the 9mm's hold 16-rounds. Absolutely NONE of these were ever made before the ban.

So, at least pre-ban Sigma magazines are easy to identify, and cannot be confused with the currently produced magazines that the free world can buy.

 

[Weerd Beard]

Just out of curiocity. What happens when a Post-Ban gun comes into the state via a residency change, and then is later sold to a dealer or a Citizen?

How would one protect themselves then?

-Weer'd Beard