Has anyone on this forum with a CWOF successfully been granted their Class A LTC?

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JFloeck

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I know it has been asked many times on this forum whether or not a CWOF is a disqualifier for your Class A LTC and from the dozens of CWOF related posts I've read, the general consensus is that a CWOF is NOT a statutory disqualifier because it is NOT a conviction. I also understand it varies from town to town on the Police Chiefs opinion of your "suitability" but despite all the posts I've seen of forum members reassuring each other of this, I've never actually seen someone come forward and say they have successfully obtained an LTC with a CWOF on their record or knew of someone who had.

I'm only asking because I'm going in for my interview with the Police Chief of Plymouth soon for my Class A LTC and I do have two misdemeanor CWOFs on my record with which I did the 1 year probation and the disposition is technically dismissed for both (Possession of Fireworks and Public Lewdness). That was over 5 years ago (I'm 24 now) and I'm worried I would get denied simply because I do not have a completely blank and pristine record even though I am still statutorily qualified and also have had a spotless record since then. I'd really like to avoid hiring a lawyer and going through a tedious and expensive appeal process if I can (obviously).

Also, I wanted to know if an LTC denial on my record would affect my ability to obtain a Concealed Carry License in another state. Say New Hampshire, maybe? Because if I have to exhaust all of my options and I still cannot exercise my Second Amendment Right in Massachusetts then NH is most likely the state I would move to. I wouldn't like it because MA is the state I grew up in, but I feel it has far too many constricting laws on the citizens that live here, especially when it comes to 2nd Amendment Rights.

Thanks in advance, NES.
 
How did you respond to question 10?

Do you have all of the paperwork related to the court cases in the event you need to consult an attorney? If not, get copies for your records.

A denial will follow you so be careful - you only get one chance to make a first impression.

https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/ssb/permitslicensing/documents/dssp85.pdf (see first question)

There are some good threads that discuss this topic and might provide some background -

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/111489-LTC-in-MA-with-Juv-CWOF

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/231289-cwof-and-obtaining-ltc/page4

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/160133-CWOF-s-and-an-FID-LTC

http://www.goal.org/Documents/law_faq_pdfs/disqual.pdf

Good luck.
 
JFloeck said:
I know it has been asked many times on this forum whether or not a CWOF is a disqualifier for your Class A LTC and from the dozens of CWOF related posts I've read, the general consensus is that a CWOF is NOT a statutory disqualifier because it is NOT a conviction. I also understand it varies from town to town on the Police Chiefs opinion of your "suitability" but despite all the posts I've seen of forum members reassuring each other of this, I've never actually seen someone come forward and say they have successfully obtained an LTC with a CWOF on their record or knew of someone who had. I'm only asking because I'm going in for my interview with the Police Chief of Plymouth soon for my Class A LTC and I do have two misdemeanor CWOFs on my record with which I did the 1 year probation and the disposition is technically dismissed for both (Possession of Fireworks and Public Lewdness). That was over 5 years ago (I'm 24 now) and I'm worried I would get denied simply because I do not have a completely blank and pristine record even though I am still statutorily qualified and also have had a spotless record since then. I'd really like to avoid hiring a lawyer and going through a tedious and expensive appeal process if I can (obviously). Also, I wanted to know if an LTC denial on my record would affect my ability to obtain a Concealed Carry License in another state. Say New Hampshire, maybe? Because if I have to exhaust all of my options and I still cannot exercise my Second Amendment Right in Massachusetts then NH is most likely the state I would move to. I wouldn't like it because MA is the state I grew up in, but I feel it has far too many constricting laws on the citizens that live here, especially when it comes to 2nd Amendment Rights. Thanks in advance, NES.
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Yes people with CWOFs can and do get LTCs. Yes people with CWOFs can and do get denied on suitability. This is Mass with 351 issuing authorities hence 351 different decision makers. (Not counting MSP in the equation). Your CWOFs will follow you around forever and pop up at the most inconvenient times. I know I review criminal records. Now there is what the law says and there is what people perceive. You did do probation to "make them go away" but they are on your BOP forever (that's your rap sheet the police see and it is not the same as a CORI). You also most likely had to allocate before the court and say something to the effect that if your case had gone to trial, there were sufficient facts that would have found you guilty. That's why a lot of
people in the CJ system see a CWOF as "guilty but got away with it" no matter what the law says. I liken it to the difference in military discharges: An Honorable Discharge and A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions may carry identical benefits for most VA programs but one is slightly tainted because there is a reason the person got it. He or she did something.

There are those here who will say go in speak well, explain your story to the licensing officer or chief and you shouldn't have a problem. They will then cite their own experience. This works fine if you are articulate and have a receptive audience. I always believe in the old Roman motto "if you wish for peace, prepare for war". I would at least consult with one of the better firearms attorneys Langer or Guida or several others and have a strategy for the worst case scenario. Some might say "oh you won't have any problems with that guy" maybe they didn't. But all of us interact differently with different personalities. The fact you got a charge for lewdness which you allocuted that their were sufficient facts (which is the case for most CWOFs) has already subjectively prejudiced me against you. I'm sure you are a nice guy and certainly an upfront one. I'm not a cop and I'm not a chief but I have a unique position in the CJ system and do BI checks from time to time for licenses.

So you can pay your money and take your chances or you can pay a little more money and stack the deck a little more in your favor. I'm all for stacking the deck when I can. Others will tell you different but you have a lot riding on this because if you are turned down on suitability, one of the questions you will be asked in the future will be: have you ever been denied a firearms license by any jurisdiction ?

To those who say: well the new law where the chief has give his reasons in writing should eliminate this and you should be good to go. I'd reply that the law is still too new and that there isn't a lot of case law to support it.

A couple of billable hours of legal advice is like an insurance policy IMO. Others will disagree but an ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure.
 
Many years ago I consulted with Darius (CrossX) RIP, about a juvenile CWOF before a renewal. It was well worth talking to an attorney.
 
I know a guy who has a couple CWOF for stupid stuff and he has an LTC.

You don't get CWOF for armed robbery, only stupid stuff that the court doesn't care to deal with and you can't afford to fight.

He also had a felony A&B dangerous weapon but that was dismissed. For that he had to write a letter to the chief explaining the circumstances. All the stuff on his record was like 25 years old and he hadn't had so much as a ticket since then
 
In God We Trust said:
I know a guy who has a couple CWOF for stupid stuff and he has an LTC. You don't get CWOF for armed robbery, only stupid stuff that the court doesn't care to deal with and you can't afford to fight. He also had a felony A&B dangerous weapon but that was dismissed. For that he had to write a letter to the chief explaining the circumstances. All the stuff on his record was like 25 years old and he hadn't had so much as a ticket since then
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No for armed robbery and assault to commit great bodily with intent to murder harm you take a plea to shoplifting and simple A&B sentenced to time served while awaiting trial and a 50 dollar fine. Win for the DA, clears the docket. Justice in Massachusetts. Judge: "Next case please" [rofl] ( I'm exaggerating but not by much)
 
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I had a client who got a CWOF for simple assault, pleaded down from assault with a deadly weapon ( to wit a handgun). As soon as the case was dismissed, the chief returned his LTC and gun.

Town was greener than green.

I also had a client denied due to a non violent charge that had been dismissed at the request of the Commonwealth.

My best legal answer is "It depends".
 
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I haven't gone to my interview yet but I intend to answer yes on question 10 and explain everything there is to my charges and anything the chief asks me. Also, I would explain the circumstances to my charges on here if it makes all of you feel better, but this is a forum on the internet and you would only have my word to go off, so that would be pointless.

After reading a few other threads and the responses on this one, I've actually become a little hesistant now. From what you guys said and I've read, a denial for my LTC will follow me everywhere. I mean, the last thing I need on my record is ANOTHER black mark. I'd imagine even if I threw money at a lawyer that still wouldn't guarantee me the license. Perhaps going for my FID instead for now would be the better choice Rather than ruin my chances of getting a concealed carry license in future?
Because as it stands right now from what I've seen on the New Hampshire Concealed Carry application, I can safely say no to every question. Would answering yes to their question "Have you ever been denied a Ltc before" disqualify me in that state as well?

I know a lot of this is just speculation but it is clearly something I need to give some thought.
 
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The fact you got a charge for lewdness which you allocuted that their were sufficient facts (which is the case for most CWOFs)
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The term on the disposition is ASF (Admission to Sufficient Facts), and the courts always, or most always, require the subject ASF in order to get a CWOF. Darius explained to me that the ASF serves as a sort of advance confession, so if the terms of the CWOF are violated, the state does not need to prove the offense for which the CWOF was granted.

A CWOF is not a disqualifier, but some attorney once wrote an opinion that a CWOF w/ASF is the same as a conviction for the purpose of LTC issuance. Although wrong, this advice pops up in police department LTC instructions from time to time.

Your experience can vary. If you applied in Brookline, you would be denied - as their goal in the LTC process is not to protect public safety, but to find any excuse to deny. Under the old system (before the standard was danger to self or public safety), the court held that the chief needed any reason, not one the court would agree with, just not one pulled out of thin air - so such a denial would be upheld. We don't yet know if the recent change in law will have any meaningful impact on appeals.

If would seem the bigger of your two issues is the public lewdness. Be prepared to explain that one. At minimum, an office consult with an attorney (get one of the ones who specializes in firearms issues) would be well worth it, especially if you are considering an appeal if denied.

And, as a side note, a CWOF for OUI is considered a conviction for purposes of "subsequent offense" sentencing.
 
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I had a couple CWOF's in MA NO convictions. I was told to attach my own CORI report and write see attached CORI on the question 10 I believe.. The Sgt. in my town laughed at the 4 pages. I had my fiance with me who had recently got her LTC from him. He said something to her like you going to straighten him out. And we all had a laugh. I live in a very green town though.
 
mark056 said:
The fact you got a charge for lewdness which you allocuted that their were sufficient facts (which is the case for most CWOFs) has already subjectively prejudiced me against you.
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Obviously, I don't know the details of this case, but couldn't this be something as simple as urinating in an alley while not even trying to expose himself to anyone (something that probably most of the guys here have done many times)?
 
ryanmlt1 said:
I had a couple CWOF's in MA NO convictions. I was told to attach my own CORI report and write see attached CORI on the question 10 I believe.. The Sgt. in my town laughed at the 4 pages. I had my fiance with me who had recently got her LTC from him. He said something to her like you going to straighten him out. And we all had a laugh. I live in a very green town though.
Click to expand...

I did the same, my Cori was twice the length. Full disclosure is better than them finding out.

All I can say is it worked for me, YMMV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
kingfisher said:
Obviously, I don't know the details of this case, but couldn't this be something as simple as urinating in an alley while not even trying to expose himself to anyone (something that probably most of the guys here have done many times)?
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It could be a lot of things and any speculation is idle. OP allocuted in a Court of the Commonwealth that there were sufficient facts that if brought to trial that he would be found guilty. This is a tacet admission of guilt and would be entered as such if he violated the terms of his probation. Any version of the story he gives here will be his and not the Commonwealths which is the only one that counts.

In general I am of the opinion that CWOFs are like genital herpes. A gift that keeps on giving. People are led to believe that everything will just disappear and nothing ever happened and the state understands they just made a mistake. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's designed to give you a little sting and let you know who's the boss, serf.

If you think you have a strong case and can prevail in court go for it. On the other hand you do risk conviction and there is the expense.

OP don't share the details. Remember too FIDs are now may issue so you still have to deal with suitability.

Fellow NESers please give this guy a break and not act like a ladies sewing circle gossiping on what the details might be. He has enough on his plate. Same for the stupid humor. OP is a real person and its easy enough to get jammed up and then be offered a CWOF as a safe and easy way out failing to realize that it's not such a good deal after all. When you make with the jokes, you are just making yourself look stupid and I hope karma doesn't bite you in the ass and you find yourself in the same situation.
 
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kingfisher said:
Obviously, I don't know the details of this case, but couldn't this be something as simple as urinating in an alley while not even trying to expose himself to anyone (something that probably most of the guys here have done many times)?
Click to expand...

JFloeck said:
Really? I thought FID's were shall issue in Massachusetts? When did this happen?
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Aug 14, 2014. Law changed.
 
JFloeck said:
Really? I thought FID's were shall issue in Massachusetts? When did this happen?
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When the law passed in August, 2014 and the new law is now in effect with all provisions of it fully effective January 15, 2015. You need to do a search on that as well or maybe go to the GOAL website. It explains that change as well as other important changes in the law.

Generally speaking too, if you are applying in another state and they ask if you have ever been denied a license that means in the context of my experience, anyway, have you been denied in any state not just the state you are applying in.

Personally I think you are in a messy situation and you don't quite realize what a CWOF can imply with regard to firearms licensure. Other states deal with this differently. Again, you can save yourself a lot of grief if you consult an attorney who specializes in firearms law in Mass.

You might have no problems or you might get denied, from my perspective it's too much of a crapshoot to go in cold and place yourself entirely at the mercy of the chief or licensing officer. I think you may be fishing around and you want to hear the answer you want to hear so you can go to your local PD and tell them how you made a few mistakes when you were younger and now you have turned your life around. Cops hear those stories 24/7 that will likely not impress them. Far better to have a strategy in place by a seasoned legal professional who has experience on these matters, really.

Other things that might help is a clean driving record, not even a "couple of speeding tickets", have you gone on with higher education? Do you have a steady job? These are all subjective but licensure is subjective in this state. Remember the police are not your friends and I say this as someone who works for the police.
 
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If you think you have a strong case and can prevail in court go for it. On the other hand you do risk conviction and there is the expense.
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Always an interesting decision.

Choose between the certainty of having something that might be used against you in licensing vs. a possibility of something that will make you a PP.

This is a tough choice even if you are 100% innocent, unless you believe that the only innocents who have been convicted are those exonerated by DNA. Remember, the DA is not interested in guilt or innocence, but plays the game of "can we get a conviction?". Nothing else would explain DAs who routinely oppose motions for DNA testing on behalf of convicts which would either prove, or disprove, a conviction with near certainty.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Always an interesting decision. Choose between the certainty of having something that might be used against you in licensing vs. a possibility of something that will make you a PP. This is a tough choice even if you are 100% innocent, unless you believe that the only innocents who have been convicted are those exonerated by DNA. Remember, the DA is not interested in guilt or innocence, but plays the game of "can we get a conviction?". Nothing else would explain DAs who routinely oppose motions for DNA testing on behalf of convicts which would either prove, or disprove, a conviction with near certainty.
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Rob, what we are seeing today, and let me add to that is the CSI effect. Juries are more likely not to convict if there is no DNA evidence. Unfortunately the public has been oversold on DNA and there are countless crimes committed everyday for which there is no DNA and not infrequently not much in the way of any forensic evidence. Good old fashioned police work is not infrequently ignored because there is no science to back it up. OTH, there are no doubt a certain percentage of totally innocent people in prison convicted on circumstantial evidence or superior prosecution without accompanying forensic evidence.
 
Your CWOF items are less important than the city/town you live in. Is the town red/yellow/green?

Call and ask to meet with the licensing officer and/or chief. Be completely up front on why you want to get 20 minutes of their time. Most will appreciate your honesty and up front manner. In fact me thinks this alone could accrue to your benefit. If they've met you, talked through the concerns and know you recognize why they might be concerned, that increases their opinion of you.

If you get a answer you don't want, a NO, then don't apply to avoid the dreaded denial on the record.

Rather simple IMHO.
 
Mark - Agreed 100%.

My point is that actual innocence does not preclude conviction, and that the prosecution is concerned only with getting a conviction - not the actual truth. Witness the Fells Acres fiasco where a condition of parole for the elderly Amirault was that she was prohibited from making any statement of innocence or attempting to clear her name.

If you get a answer you don't want, a NO, then don't apply to avoid the dreaded denial on the record.
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Comm2A would be very interested in hearing from folks denied due to a CWOF, particularly one that does not make the individual look suspect. For example, a CWOF for fireworks possession on July 4 would make a better case than a CWOF for masturbation in a day care center.
 
richc said:
Your CWOF items are less important than the city/town you live in. Is the town red/yellow/green?

Call and ask to meet with the licensing officer and/or chief. Be completely up front on why you want to get 20 minutes of their time. Most will appreciate your honesty and up front manner. In fact me thinks this alone could accrue to your benefit. If they've met you, talked through the concerns and know you recognize why they might be concerned, that increases their opinion of you.

If you get a answer you don't want, a NO, then don't apply to avoid the dreaded denial on the record.

Rather simple IMHO.
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I've already tried this. They all say the same thing: "We cannot give you a definite answer until all of your records have been brought up on our end so your best bet is just to apply and go through the process". I'm paraphrasing what they said of course, but to my knowledge in Plymouth you make an appointment and on that day you go down and drop off your application and that's when they start the process of interviewing, fingerprinting etc. Of course stop me if I'm wrong but that's my understanding of the process. Also, to my knowledge Plymouth is a Green town. I'm not sure how Green but it is.
 
Exactly on the money Rob, the justice System for DAs is nothing more than a big/win loss column and it is all about the conviction, better yet take the plea and move on to the next case. What we haven't even touched on are the number of people who plead guilty even though they are innocent of all charges just to get a deal and get the whole thing over with. Better to do one year in a House of Correction on a lessor charge than five years at Concord or Shirley. Legal expenses or poor public defenders are part of the problem. The CJ System is like a conveyor belt, it's a process, frequently has little to do with innocence or guilt or even the offense the accused may have actually committed, then too one can be charged with a different offense for commuting the same act depending on what district court you are in, something I found out when working on a project a couple of years ago.

Better to take the plea bargain has become the standard guilt or innocence is totally immaterial.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Comm2A would be very interested in hearing from folks denied due to a CWOF, particularly one that does not make the individual look suspect. For example, a CWOF for fireworks possession on July 4 would make a better case than a CWOF for masturbation in a day care center.
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I'm not going to go into detail about it, but believe me when I say my PL CWOF is nothing of THAT magnitude. You could probably assume that if they offered me a CWOF it was something minor (misdemeanor). I don't even think OJ's lawyer could get a CWOF for what you stated.
 
JFloeck said:
I'm not going to go into detail about it, but believe me when I say my PL CWOF is nothing of THAT magnitude. You could probably assume that if they offered me a CWOF it was something minor (misdemeanor). I don't even think OJ's lawyer could get a CWOF for what you stated.
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You need to be quiet about what your CWOF was about now. You have been given advice, take it or leave it. As to what your offense was remember as my mother used to say: "your friends don't care and your enemies won't believe you anyhow" At one time in your life you were a knucklehead and got a way out of having to do some jail time. It will follow you, move on.

We are neither your friends nor your enemies, we don't know you. Don't take it so personally as if you have to explain. You had your day in court.
 

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