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Harvard sportsman club
- Thread starter Badfl97
- Start date
SJan
NES Member
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
SJan
NES Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2008
- Messages
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7. 630 for new members.
Are you on the mailing list? They send out meeting info in the emails.
M1911
Moderator
Harvard Action Shooters decided not to allow PCC. Harvard Steel Challenge decided to allow PCC. There is really not much more to it than that. You would have to talk to the leadership of HAS and/or Harvard Sportsmen's to know why they decided to disallow PCC for USPSA or to try to convince them otherwise.
Btw, there were only two competitors shooting PCC at Hopinkton last weekend.
No, there were actually three and I was one of them. I consider that a pretty good turnout considering it isn't even full status. There were four each in Limited 10 and Revo and only 5 in Single Stack for reference.
M1911
Moderator
You don't know their reasons. You're just pissed that they haven't allowed your division of choice.
So get involved with HAS and talk to them about it. Bitching about it here is pretty pointless.
And from a match administration point of view, comparing Carry Optics with PCC is rather ridiculous. Carry Optics is just another handgun, that is operated and RO'ed the same was any other handgun division. In contrast, PCC requires bags, flags, etc., and is more prone to potential muzzle violations.
PCC is actually straight forward to RO. Yes it requires a flag and a bag but past that I disagree that it is "more prone to potential muzzle violations". I would argue that it is actually less prone and safer since the PCC is sitting in a bag off to the side 95% of the time.
I have approached Harvard and haven't heard any reasoning at all. Airing my grievance here is pretty much my only remaining recourse and I have been quite civil about it.
I would love to read the reasoning and will withhold judgement until that time.
I have approached Harvard and haven't heard any reasoning at all. Airing my grievance here is pretty much my only remaining recourse and I have been quite civil about it.
I would love to read the reasoning and will withhold judgement until that time.
M1911
Moderator
I disagree most strongly. While carrying a carbine and moving right to left (assuming you are a righty), it is very easy to point the muzzle up range. In contrast, it is far easier to keep the muzzle pointed downrange while doing that transition if you are using a handgun.
As for the bag, come on dude, it takes a longer and you know it. During unload and show clear with a handgun, you unload and show clear, holster, and you're done. With the carbine, you have to unload, show clear, find your flag, insert the flag, have someone bring the bag, put the gun in the bag, and zip the bag. Bagging the PCC takes longer. It simply does.
And these are bigger issues with USPSA than with Steel Challenge. With Steel Challenge, there is no movement (except for one stage, and that is simply a couple steps to the side). The shooter always stays at the shooting box, so their bag is right there. There is even a convenient table upon which you can put the bag while bagging the gun. In contrast, with USPSA, the stage may end a long way from where it starts, so someone has to bring the bag to the shooter.
Note, I'm not saying that it is overwhelmingly hard to run PCC in USPSA. It isn't. But it is harder than running pistol. There is no "cost" to the match to add another pistol division. There is a "cost" to the match to add PCC. So your comparison of carry optics to PCC was really intellectually dishonest.
The people who made that decision aren't here. You want to shoot PCC and you are mad that they don't allow it. We get it. Go bitch to the HAS folks.
I'm not going to muck up this bread further but as someone who has actually run a PCC in two USPSA matches you are dead wrong.
Intellectually dishonest? Please. At least I actually know what I'm talking about instead of using scare tactics.
You chose to answer my question about PCC at Harvard that was posted in the Harvard thread. Then you complained that I didn't address the correct people. In the Harvard thread. You do realize the absurdity of that right?
Intellectually dishonest? Please. At least I actually know what I'm talking about instead of using scare tactics.
You chose to answer my question about PCC at Harvard that was posted in the Harvard thread. Then you complained that I didn't address the correct people. In the Harvard thread. You do realize the absurdity of that right?
Just to update, I did get a response from Dan. He said that the club may allow an exemption for PCC's in the pistol bays but had not arranged one yet.
Based on reactions at the shoots being universally positive and getting the opposite reaction online, I plan to start a thread and post my embarrassing videos. Hopefully it will encourage others to join me as I learn to shoot PCC in USPSA. Safely.
Thanks.
Based on reactions at the shoots being universally positive and getting the opposite reaction online, I plan to start a thread and post my embarrassing videos. Hopefully it will encourage others to join me as I learn to shoot PCC in USPSA. Safely.
Thanks.
MadRussian
Army Veteran
I think that PCC is a different type of shooting in an established event is a big draw. There aren't a lot of options for dinamic rifle shooting in competitions. As far as safety, anybody can screw up with a rifle or a pistol. The scripts might just be a little different but the probably is the same.
SJan
NES Member
No it isn't.
Would you use the same reasoning to not allow a D class shooter to enter a match? Ya know, too avoid delays?
It takes an average D class shooter much much longer to complete a 32 round stage. Id say about 50-90 seconds for a D vs 20-25 for a M or A.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
You make it sound like a lot of people have PCCs. they don't. I've seen a disproportionate amount of them at NES shoots (Mostly HiPoints) but outside of that, they're actually pretty rare. "Johnny 2 box newbie" doesn't buy a PCC most of the time. Not covering it is not going to dissuade anyone.
That said, I don't really think it'll take much to integrate PCCs at most club matches, etc. I think some are just reluctant because they might not have crap like chamber flags around, etc. Or the ROs that they have are not up to speed on any special rules particular to that class.
-Mike
SJan
NES Member
there are no special rules.
Some ROs, and some USPSA members in general, are afraid of change.
The only reasonable argument against PCC as a new division I have head, is that it may water down the other divisions.... to that I say so what.
The only reasonable argument I have heard against not allowing PCC at a particular club match is that rifle/carbine is not allowed on a clubs particular bay or range. That I can understand, however, some of these same clubs that are not currently allowing PCC at USPSA match have had in the past 3 gun, USPSA rifle, or USPSA shotgun matches on those same bays/ranges, exceptions have been made for matches in the past, and exceptions for matches can be made for all future matches. Club politics and all...
I'll one up that, and offer you my gamer rig to borrow
Weather forecast looks good for Sunday. I'm like 80% sure I can make it but I'll know better on Saturday. Would definitely love to try out that gamer a rig if I make it. Thanks again.
Mike, PCC's are far more common than you apparently think. There are quite a number of HK94/MP5's, Uzi's, Scorpions, yes HiPoints, MPx, and yes AR9's around. Their owners have been itching for years to practice close range situations on courses that allow movement and free form target engagement.
Wrt newbies & PCC's: My wife has introduced quite a few new females to shooting and do you know what they enjoy shooting most? The AR9.
Why? Because it is easier for them to operate, manipulate, aim, and enjoy. A 75# woman often struggles with heavy slides and short stroking on polymer striker fired pistols. If I had an MP5 I bet they would love that as well.
I have personally helped or contributed to about a dozen AR9 builds in the past year. In each of the two shoots I've done so far, the reception has been overwhelmingly positive and I have spent most of my down time answering questions from prospective shooters and PCC owners. The guns are a ****ing blast to shoot, cheap to feed, easy to handle, shares all of its controls and accessories with the AR15, and can be used on the same targets and ranges as pistols. Add heavy bullets, bump stock, and a can and you can't have much more fun.
Wrt newbies & PCC's: My wife has introduced quite a few new females to shooting and do you know what they enjoy shooting most? The AR9.
Why? Because it is easier for them to operate, manipulate, aim, and enjoy. A 75# woman often struggles with heavy slides and short stroking on polymer striker fired pistols. If I had an MP5 I bet they would love that as well.
I have personally helped or contributed to about a dozen AR9 builds in the past year. In each of the two shoots I've done so far, the reception has been overwhelmingly positive and I have spent most of my down time answering questions from prospective shooters and PCC owners. The guns are a ****ing blast to shoot, cheap to feed, easy to handle, shares all of its controls and accessories with the AR15, and can be used on the same targets and ranges as pistols. Add heavy bullets, bump stock, and a can and you can't have much more fun.
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No, they're really not. Go to most gun clubs and watch what joe newgunshooter shows up with, 99 out of 100 times it's not going to be a PCC. Outside of NES Shoots, or bigger clubs like HSC, I've seen PCC being used maybe a total of like a dozen or so times in the past 15 years. The average smoe gun owner doesn't buy these guns.
I'm not denying any of that stuff (the benefits, etc) I'm just maintaining that, overall, they're not that common. You were talking about "attracting newbies" and I guarantee you that most noobs are not going to have a PCC. They're enthusiast guns for the most part. Many gun shops don't even sell guns like the ones you built, or very rarely, because they're not good movers overall. It's hard to get people to spend real money on a properly built PCC.... and its even worse if the FNG/noob is a skinflint... those people cringe at the thought of even buying a HiPoint carbine.
Now, in saying that, I agree that they are growing in popularity in the past 5 years or so (because there are more choices, and a lot of them actually don't suck, which is a big problem in the PCC market) but there's a long way to go before they become common on the level of something like an .223/5.56 AR or AK or whatever. Right now they're probably in that realm of "significantly less rare than .50 BMG rifles" but that isn't really saying much.
-Mike
