Gunpal issues!!

The plot thickens. Here's the latest update from Oleg:

I resigned from GPAL "adviser board"
Since I have no actual influence on their actions, I asked GPAL to remove my name from their web site. The position has always been an unpaid and unofficial, but it did lend my name to the enterprise. Right now, I can neither condemn nor endorse GPAL, only wait and see how they handle the current problems. What they need for success now is well outside of my area of expertise.
 
I actually got my payment today! I'm not sure if it's the alphabet soup of agencies I contacted or some other behind the scenes pressure, but it got done. Time to delete my linked accounts and close my gpal account. Even if all of their problems are legit (which i still doubt), they way they've handled them is unacceptable.
 
I actually got my payment today! I'm not sure if it's the alphabet soup of agencies I contacted or some other behind the scenes pressure, but it got done. Time to delete my linked accounts and close my gpal account. Even if all of their problems are legit (which i still doubt), they way they've handled them is unacceptable.

[party] I'm glad to hear you got your money from them. That was a lot to have tied up and must have made the work for the group buy 1000% more stressful.
 
Yeah, you're telling me. I've pretty much written off the $800 they owe me from the Techwear buy. Though if it by some miracle shows up, I'm looking at it as found money and buying a new gun.

I actually got my payment today! I'm not sure if it's the alphabet soup of agencies I contacted or some other behind the scenes pressure, but it got done. Time to delete my linked accounts and close my gpal account. Even if all of their problems are legit (which i still doubt), they way they've handled them is unacceptable.

So now you have to stick to your promise! Whatcha gonna buy? [wink]
 
Close the bank account altogether at the bank, reopen a new one, just tell them it may be compromised by an outside source, they'll do it in a heartbeat.

That's a huge pain in the ass though. Not as huge as fighting to get your money back, I admit, but I'm not sure the risk/reward is worth it yet. There's still a decent chance Gpal are morons and not thieves.
 
I deleted my linked stuff but can find no way to close the account.

I couldn't even find the way to unlink my accounts.

I emailed support and requested that they close my account. I threatened to contact the CA AG, my states AG, and some other alphabet agency if they did not close my account within ten business days. I sent that message on 7/29/10 and my account was closed by 8/5/10.

I did have to fill out a form however to close my account.

I will list it here for any and all to use:

Support Ticket #674188

Mr. ********,

You must fill out the closure of account form here,

"We understand you wish to close your GPal account. At GPal we value your business and want to make every effort to keep you as a customer. If there is any issue you are unhappy with I would be happy to respond to it or escalate the matter to an executive in order to get it resolved to your satisfaction.

If you would still like to close your GPal account we ask that you complete and Sign the following form for security reasons, and scan and email it back to us at [email protected]

"I __________________________________(Name) would like to cancel my GPal account,



_________________________________________(E-mail address) for reason



_________________________________________________(Reason) effective as of



_______/________/___________(Date).



Phone number on account:__________________________________________



Last 4 of bank account or credit card on file:________________________________________



Signature:________________________________________________""


And respond with it attached, or your account will not be closed.

Have a wonderful day.

Regards,
Chad Smith
Senior Support Specialist

I suggest filling out the support ticket form on their website and copying the above form (filled out of course) into the message box.
 
Funny:

2gydddt.jpg



(Still no money.)
 
Looks like gpal is finally dead. Calguns has kicked them off the site (finally) and now the Better Business Buereau has THIS to say:

Based on BBB files, GPal has a BBB Rating of F on a scale from A+ to F.

Reasons for this rating include:
Length of time business has been operating.
65 complaints filed against business
27 complaints filed against business that were not resolved.
19 serious complaints filed against business.
Overall complaint history with BBB.
Business has failed to resolve underlying cause(s) of a pattern of complaints.
Failure to respond to one complaint filed against business.


Never got my money, although I'm still working a couple of alternate paths.
 
The following is the text of an Email I just received from GunsAmerica providing some info on filing a claim against Gpal/Gunpal, etc. I'm posting the entire Email (Derek, if that is a problem please take appropriate action) as I'm not sure that it's posted anywhere where I could post merely a link to it.

This is the last screen on the complaint form at IC3 http://www.gunsamerica.com/linker.a...2&c=1026_Gpal&l=http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/ . Keep clicking through up to ten screens of simple questions. They all lead to this form.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/linker.a...2&c=1026_Gpal&l=http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/

Hi Everyone,

This message is about the 3rd party payment service for guns known as Gpal, or GunPal before that. Down this message a bit you will see a link to file a complaint if you feel you have been wronged. The image on the right here is the form. If you have not been involved with making or taking payments through Gpal this message does not affect you.

This is solely a public service announcement. Gpal/GunPal has never been an authorized payment system on GunsAmerica. There is some confusion about this because some of the other sites where you can buy and sell guns did endorse and even integrate Gpal/GunPal into their websites. We did not, even though we were offered a "deal" out of the profits like everyone else, and it was for a reason that we didn't. A Paypal-like system for guns with similar fees in the 3% range is impossible for the gun industry.

Several years ago GunsAmerica tried to create our own third party payment system for guns. We even own the domain guncash.com. Unfortunately we discovered quickly that, when it came to "underwriting" such a system, our industry is too small. There is not enough money in it to risk the tens of millions of dollars to underwrite and FDIC insure all of the money coming and going.

It took us years to even find a Merchant Services company (merchant credit card accounts for gun dealers) that would deal with guns being sold online. To our knowledge, our Live Payments http://www.gunsamerica.com/linker.a...l&l=https://www.gunsamerica.com/livepayments/ system through Electronic Transfer Inc. is the only merchant account approved specifically for guns online (FFL dealers only) through a secure internet gateway that is also approved for guns online (authorize.net is not). If a sales rep or anyone else tells you different, or if you are offered another 3rd party payment system for guns, question it. It is not necessarily that the banks are anti-gun. They are anti-risk, and we know what it is like to make your way up the banking chain explaining the very small risks involving guns and credit, even online. The chargeback rate for guns is far below the national average for other products.

Now, back to Gpal. Because even though we never endorsed Gpal or integrated it into GunsAmerica, a number of our sellers did take payments through them. Many have emailed us that they are unable to withdraw their funds now and have asked for help. We also have a lot of buyers who buy guns on all the online sites who are caught in the middle and have emailed us to see if we know anything.

I spoke to Carl Chapman from the Marin County District Attorney's Office, who is in charge of managing this case. The Gpal case is an open investigation, not a case that has been labeled criminal at this time. There are several agencies involved and as far as I can tell, nobody should assume right now that Gpal did anything illegal. Everyone who made and accepted payments with them trusted them to be a successful enterprise. This could just be a speed bump from which they have yet to recover. Even PayPal had speed bumps, and they too were accused of fraudulent activity at the time.

We are sending this email to let you know how to file a complaint. We have nothing to do with Gpal and have no knowledge of their relationships with other online gun buying and selling sites and/or internet discussion forums. We elected to not do business with Gpal from the start because of exactly these concerns.

Mr. Chapman has asked that all complaints go through The Internet Crime Complaint Center. The URL for the form is at http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/ http://www.gunsamerica.com/linker.a...2&c=1026_Gpal&l=http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/ .

Don't worry, this is not a black hole of government inaction. All the complaints for this case go right to Mr. Chapman in spreadsheet form that is easier for him to deal with than individual complaints on the telephone. There are SEVEN TO TEN SCREENS to click through of questions to get to the final form (which you see hanging on the right here). Hang in there! The questions don't really fit this case, but answer them as close to what makes sense. I clicked through a few times with different answers and it didn't seem to matter how you answered them. They all lead to the final form.

Hopefully the situation with Gpal will resolve itself and everyone will get their money back. Many small gun dealers, accepting the endorsements of trusted entities (GunsAmerica not being one of them), trusted Gpal and took payments through them. They need those funds! We pray that Gpal does make it through and that no fraudulent activity is found so that everyone gets their money. The gun industry is a very small place and we are attacked from the outside by people and organizations every day. It is better for all of us to assume the best in each other, not the worst, and let the problems work themselves out if at all possible.

Whether you choose to use Gpal now or in the future is up to you. We do not authorize any third party payment system. It is still a free country to some extent. And we most likely will not be updating our information about Gpal in the future as we have nothing to do with them. The only public support forum we know of was recently closed by those hosting them. Regular customer support at Gpal is [email protected] and the customer support phone number is 1-800-813-4725.

Thanks as always for being a part of GunsAmerica. -ph@ga
 
Still no money, but I did get an email from Gpal today:

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

As some of you may be aware of, GPal has been experiencing growing pains that are typical of a startup business in an industry that banks are often are hostile to. As a result, a small number of GPal customers have experienced delays and extra requests for information related to their transactions, involving our Automatic Clearing House (ACH) bank withdrawal payout system, affecting the timely dispersal of funds outside of GPal.

Please note that credit cards and GPal-to-GPal transactions have not been affected, and that most customers at GPal are completely unaffected. Only a small number of customers that have had transactions occur at critical times have seen these delays, however we felt it important to notify our customers about these issues.

We at GPal know that this letter has been a long time coming and we sincerely apologize for any delays or inconveniences regarding this matter. While we cannot get into particulars due to pending litigation, we can give our customers a summation of what has been going on and what we are doing to fix it.

The Situation.

When we founded GPal, I knew life would be difficult for a firearms-friendly and otherwise pro-rights payment processor because banks generally do not like working with payment processors, especially ones that cater to the firearms community. Combining the two proved to be a non-starter for years.

Eventually, we were connected to Bank 1. Bank 1 agreed to take on our business but only with with a substantial cash reserve, which I funded out of pocket. Gpal utilized this bank’s processing services for several months and with excellent results. Then, one day, we received a notice that our ability to disburse funds via ACH had been cancelled. It was found later that our ACH access was cancelled a week prior and without notice. This caused a noticeable delay in funding and thus the first "ripple" that GPal experienced.

After finding out about Bank 1, we quickly moved to using Bank 2, a bank we were already in negotiations with. Within two weeks, the ripple was over and ACH disbursements continued but my team had to complete each transaction by hand until Bank 2 finished our back-end integration. This process usually takes a grueling 6 months or more but we were ready in less than 20 days.

Within a short period of time, Bank 2 unceremoniously shut us off. At that point, we decided to begin issuing paper checks to our customers, a solution that cost many thousands of dollars in mailing and printing fees out of my own pocket. We used an established third-party payment vendor to print and send these checks but many of the banks who received these checks told our customers they were fakes. After many teleconferences, all of the banks eventually reversed their opinions and concluded the checks were real, thus allowing our customers to access their funds.

Soon after new banking agreements were signed with Banks 3 and 4 and 5, we stopped issuing paper checks and went back to conducting transfers through ACH. This went well for about a month, until Bank 3 shut off our services, less than 30 days later.

We expanded our operations to Bank 6 and Bank 7, who initially accepted our business then reversed their acceptance less than 30 days in. We posted notifications on our Withdrawl Money page, and our support pages, to notify customers that there may be problems affecting a small portion of GPal transactions.

We now continue to operate with Bank 4, Bank 5, and two new banks Bank 8 and soon Bank 9, as a risk-mitigation move. However, the total amount of processing reserves on the outbound side, plus processing reserves on the inbound side, are significantly larger than we expected. In addition, our credit card processing banks scrutinize each transaction, often asking for secondary validation information before releasing (or holding) funds. This is a normal activity and the reason why we occasionally ask you for a tracking number or some other proof of delivery for a product or service.

Credit card fraud is rampant in this day and age, and GPal has seen this first-hand. We were able to build a sophisticated munti-aspect fraud mitigation system, and while we are below industry averages, we have taken our share of fraud related losses. This affects the terms of our relationship and funds required on deposit with our credit card processing banks.

Finally, several individuals hostile to our business have made threatening calls to GPal customers, impersonating GPal staff, and taken other actions against us, which further hurts our ability to conduct business. Please note that GPal will only call you from our support number, and will only communicate with you via [email protected].

Thought all of this, GPal has fought tooth and nail to continue to bring it’s customers the services they need, and we continue to disburse money to our customers within the bounds of bank requirements. It is our aim to provide you the best pro-rights payment processing possible, and we will not waiver in that commitment.

What we are doing about it.

GPal depends on banks both to take in and send out money. Most of what we do is provide a conduit between these banks so that our customers can transact business. We are at the mercy of these banks and their requirements in order to bring you the GPal product, and since banks are involved in both ends of a transaction, we sometimes are asked for more information.

The various banks that GPal processes with need security. To do that, they retain a varying portion of the funds we transmit. At first I financed many of these reserves with my own funds so when the banks would not pay out you received my money. However, I am unable to do that forever, so GPal is expanding.

- GPal is growing it's operations and shoring up it's banking relationships with additional funds.
- GPis is establishing new strategic partnerships that will increase volume and capability of GPal to process payments.
- GPal is going to offer a Debit Card so that our customers can access their funds in realtime, without depending on the long transit time of ACH.
- GPal is hiring more email and phone support staff to help deal with the increased level of customer service requests.


How you can help.

You can help by:
1. Promptly providing confirmation information when GPal Support asks for it (usually this is tracking numbers, description of goods, and personal or business identity documentation.)
2. Please keep issues confined to one email ticket by replying to that same ticket, and do not repeatedly call GPal’s 800 support line so the line can be kept clear for new issues.
3. If you are interested in other avenues of helping, please contact GPal support at [email protected].


In order to get back on our feet and fully recover, GPal must expand it's offerings, including but not limited to offering a Debit Card for easier and immediate funds access for our sellers and expanding our processing base. To do so we need your help.

GPal remains absolutely committed to providing the only RKBA and firearms-friendly payment service in the world.

Sincerely,

Ben Cannon
Chairman/CEO
GPal, Inc.

It's a good story, but I still don't have the money they owe me. [angry]
 
Anyone who signs up for additional services will deserve exactly what they will get . . .

It might as well be a Nigerian scam at this point.
 
It might as well be a Nigerian scam at this point.

I've read some Nigerian scam emails that were more believable and less convoluted that the explanation Mr. Cannon offers.
 
Still no money, but I did get an email from Gpal today:



It's a good story, but I still don't have the money they owe me. [angry]


You are just part of "a small number of GPal customers." Just like the hundreds of thousands of them.


I agree with Len. I dont care what they do anymore. I'll never sign up with them. This letter is more than "a long time coming" and sounds a lot like a stall tactic to me. If I had signed up with them and they owed me money there would be a massive class action law suit already in place.
 
You are just part of "a small number of GPal customers." Just like the hundreds of thousands of them.


If you read between the lines in Ben Cannon's email the "small number of GPal customers" is everyone who tried to transfer money out to a checking account. Obama should hire this guy to run the Treasury - he'd fit right in.
 
. Someone dipped into the nest egg and now it's a Ponzi set up.
It wouldn't even have to be intentional - operational expenses exceed what is funded from profits and initial investment; no more investment cash to be had - choice to be made - liquidate or start paying bills with customer funds and hope to rebuild the business. (sort of like the person with the gambling problem who starts to "borrow" money from the employer with the intent to pay it all back out of winnings).

What is conspicuously absent from Ben's diatribe is an assurance that an independent auditing firm has verified that all customer funds are intact and separately escrowed; that no customer funds have been diverted to other uses; and that fraud losses have been covered from internal reserves, not customer funds.
 
If I had signed up with them and they owed me money there would be a massive class action law suit already in place.

Only if you could front a bundle of cash or convince counsel there are sufficient assets to make Gpal worth pursuing.
 
What I find interesting is no one is pissed off that these banks have all cut them off after a month or less in most cases. Nor is anyone asking why. I get that not getting your money is really sucky but am I the only one interested in why these banks pull the plug soon after starting up? Could it be a concerted effort by some to remove the only rights friendly payment processing company? Could it be paypal screwing with them? I just really find it interesting that the banks are bailing that quick.
 
What I find interesting is no one is pissed off that these banks have all cut them off after a month or less in most cases. Nor is anyone asking why. I get that not getting your money is really sucky but am I the only one interested in why these banks pull the plug soon after starting up? Could it be a concerted effort by some to remove the only rights friendly payment processing company? Could it be paypal screwing with them? I just really find it interesting that the banks are bailing that quick.

. . . or could it be that they smelled something fishy and didn't want to be part of it?
 
What I find interesting is no one is pissed off that these banks have all cut them off after a month or less in most cases. Nor is anyone asking why. I get that not getting your money is really sucky but am I the only one interested in why these banks pull the plug soon after starting up? Could it be a concerted effort by some to remove the only rights friendly payment processing company? Could it be paypal screwing with them? I just really find it interesting that the banks are bailing that quick.

That would require believing that any of GPAL's excuses are true. Based on how much they've lied, not many people are going to do that.

That said, the speculation says that the reason they get cut off so fast is that they're getting cut off for violating the agreement with the bank and/or operating as a payment service without proper licensure.
 
. . . or could it be that they smelled something fishy and didn't want to be part of it?

That would require believing that any of GPAL's excuses are true. Based on how much they've lied, not many people are going to do that.

That said, the speculation says that the reason they get cut off so fast is that they're getting cut off for violating the agreement with the bank and/or operating as a payment service without proper licensure.

I can't shake what happened to Cannon at the beginning of the year when he was arrested for doing something he couldn't possibly have done. The woman who filed the complaint didn't get arrested herself and there are rumors out there that she is related to people who could want to see gpal fail. Sorry, I am not the tinfolio type but that whole thing just screams to me that he is a target so I am willing to give some leeway.

As for the license issues, do you really think bank lawyers aren't determining the legality of the business they are singing an agreement with before signing? That's BS. As for violating the terms of the agreements, that may be less BS but as someone who has to sign and deal with business agreements, I can say it is not a hard thing to do. Like the adage that people on average commit three felonies a day, show me a business relationship and I will find something each is doing in violation of their mutual agreement. I had a situation last year where a clause in one of my agreements was not being adhered to by the letter. But the interesting thing is it was impossible by law for me to adhere to the letter but I could have adhered in spirit (by getting umbrella insurance). They just sloughed it off because it was clear the clause really didn't pertain to someone in my circumstances.
 
Have you looked at the sketchyness of Cannon's history? Based on what I've read, pretty much his entire resume is a fabrication. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89122 is very long and there's a bunch useless complaining, but it's pretty enlightening. Your reaction sounds pretty similar to that of most people who haven't been following the saga. I'm pretty slammed at the moment, but I'll try and come back later and sum up the history.
 
Unbelievable. Check out the email I got from gpal just now:
Dear XXXXXXXXXX,

Announcing Bidscapes.com

Bidscapes.com is a place to freely trade the legal goods and services of your choice. If a good or service is not otherwise prohibited by law or in violation of GPal’s User Agreement, it can be bought or sold on Bidscapes.com.

As a special thank you to our valued customers, we are giving all GPal users who sign up in the next 30 days a $10 credit at Bidscapes.com that can be used toward final-value fees for live auctions.

At Bidscapes.com, it is free to list any item and only a small and reasonable final value fee is assessed when an item is sold. You can see all of the rates at: http://www.bidscapes.com/site_fees.php

Bidscapes.com will accept payment exclusively via GPal for all fees. Bidscapes.com customers may pay each other directly through GPal or via offline payment.

GPal.net and Bidscapes.com remain absolutely committed to providing the only RKBA and firearms-friendly payment and auction combination in the world.

Are they serious? If your kitchen is on fire, do you go outside and build a new garage? WTF?

EDIT: They still owe me $208.68. Transaction ID# BA5F7ED3C17E38 just to show I'm not FOS or one of "a few people hostile to the gpal business model."
 
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