GPS after TEOTWAWKI

[newenglandjeff]

How long would the GPS network continue to function if it were to cease being maintained?

 

[Chris]

Not immediately, but the quality of the almanac would degrade quickly over time.

 

[KMaurer]

A good set of maps (on water-resistant paper), a printed version of the USNO Astronomical Ephemeris, a good watch, and one of these:

Ken

 

[M1911]

If TEOTWAKI happens, your GPS becoming non-functional would be the least of your worries.

 

[Dench]

How long would the GPS network continue to function if it were to cease being maintained?

there is one current alternative to NAVSTAR, but its being repaired and the service works about 55% of the time as of now. if you can find a receiver that can track GLONASS then go for it.

a new upcoming system is coming from the EU, Galileo. when thats up and running, you should be able to find duel galileo and GPS receivers, and possibly ones that include glonass if they ever fix that train wreck.

 

[matt]

A good set of maps (on water-resistant paper), a printed version of the USNO Astronomical Ephemeris, a good watch, and one of these:

Ken

Don't forget a good chronometer .

 

[KMaurer]

Read my list again.

Ken

 

[newenglandjeff]

Thanks guys. I've always been impressed with my little GARMIN but recently I've began to wonder how it would function in a post world world. I never knew how fragile the network was, but I guess it makes sense that the satellites have to periodically reference thier positions against stationary terminals. I guess I will have to learn how to use that whacky contraption of KMaurer's .

 

[M1911]

In a post world world, why would you need a GPS? Food, fuel, shelter, and medical care would be far more pressing than a GPS.

 

[mikem317]

In a post world world, why would you need a GPS? Food, fuel, shelter, and medical care would be far more pressing than a GPS.

If TEOTWAKI happens, your GPS becoming non-functional would be the least of your worries.

Might need to navigate to a different area of the country by car at a moment's notice? YMMV.

 

[M1911]

Might need to navigate to a different area of the country by car at a moment's notice? YMMV.

If the satellites aren't working, do you really think you'll be able to get enough gas to move to a different part of the country? Do you really think that would be safe?

 

[newenglandjeff]

In a post world world, why would you need a GPS? Food, fuel, shelter, and medical care would be far more pressing than a GPS.

I could come up with a number of different uses, the first being that I drive trucks several hundred miles away from home at times. If TEOTWAWKI happens while I'm out and I have to hoof it, it would be good to know how long my little GPS unit will be working.

The "why" deserves its own thread though, I'm just looking for technical info.

 

[matt]

One thing that is nice about the GPS is that while the the signals may go cold, the database still remians. So you'll still have a good digital almanac if nothing else.

 

[mikem317]

If the satellites aren't working, do you really think you'll be able to get enough gas to move to a different part of the country? Do you really think that would be safe?

Those are separate issues (satellite service unavailable and enough gas). Plus it's relative; it depends on the nature of the issue, the scope, and other variables.

I guess the scenario I floated was a family in southern New England that seeks refuge with relatives in northern New England after a large-scale disaster (e.g. ice storm, hurricane, terrorist event, etc.)

 

[M1911]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. In the event of a crisis, the last thing you want to be doing is going to an unfamiliar place. You'll be worried about food, fuel, and shelter. Electronic gadgets won't be useful for long.

 

[P-14]

I'm sorry, but I just don't bu it. In the event of a crisis, the last thing you want to be doing is going to an unfamiliar place. You'll be worried about food, fuel, and shelter. Electronic gadgets won't be useful for long.

Exactly. Where's the electricity to keep them charged? Would you waste batteries on these gadges when batteries become so valuable that you could almost use them for money? And, let's not talk about gas for the car........

 

[mikem317]

I'm sorry, but I just don't bu it. In the event of a crisis, the last thing you want to be doing is going to an unfamiliar place. You'll be worried about food, fuel, and shelter. Electronic gadgets won't be useful for long.

It's not about going to an unfamiliar place, but trying to navigate to your in-laws', parents', or friends' house that's 300 miles away because Al-Qaeda just nuked Boston.

 

[Len-2A Training]

It's not about going to an unfamiliar place, but trying to navigate to your in-laws', parents', or friends' house that's 300 miles away because Al-Qaeda just nuked Boston.

And what are you going to use to substitute for the air that is now radioactively contaminated as you drive those 300 miles thru a nuclear cloud?

Do a little reading on ingestion of radioactive contaminants and the effects on the human body before worrying about GPSes.

 

[mikem317]

And what are you going to use to substitute for the air that is now radioactively contaminated as you drive those 300 miles thru a nuclear cloud?

Do a little reading on ingestion of radioactive contaminants and the effects on the human body before worrying about GPSes.

Substitutes would probably include a map (have in both cars), and previous knowledge of metro-area interstates.

I'm not worried about GPS connectivity. I'm not the OP. The point is, is that there's obviously some need for tools in order to navigate after or during an event that requires immediate evasion. GPS units could be one of those tools.

 

[newenglandjeff]

who gives a shit. its a hypothetical question and you guys arent answering it, you're challenging the events leading to the hypo.

Well the first page had some poignant thoughts. I can sum up pages 2 and 3 with the following statement;
"IF in case of TEOTWAWKI, you find that your GPS unit still functions, you must immediately disable it before it consumes your food and fuel reserves, burns down your shelter, uses up your wifes vibrator batteries, steals your wallet, or leads you into a radioactive cloud."

 

[mikem317]

Well the first page had some poignant thoughts. I can sum up pages 2 and 3 with the following statement;
"IF in case of TEOTWAWKI, you find that your GPS unit still functions, you must immediately disable it before it consumes your food and fuel reserves, burns down your shelter, uses up your wifes vibrator batteries, steals your wallet, or leads you into a radioactive cloud."

I actually laughed when I read that.

 

[Dench]

who gives a shit. its a hypothetical question and you guys arent answering it, you're challenging the events leading to the hypo.

no kidding!

 

[n1zfg]

As an engineer, I will say this:
Stuff fails. It always will, sometime along the way.
So, if you are going to bet your life on it, be sure to have at least one backup system or plan (if not two), just in case the the first one goes down.

As far as TEOTWAWKI goes, the military may (at its option) encrypt or shut down the whole system.

Growing up, the "shotgun" seat was called the "navigator seat". Anyone sitting there had the responsibility of reading the road signs, reading the map, and doing the work of that my GPS receiver now does.

 

[Dench]

encrypt or shut down the whole system.

selective availability was shut off permanently, and all the new GPS satellites are no longer made with the feature. if we cant get the signal, neither can .gov with the current setup.

there are also alternatives to the US GPS.

 

[Altezza]

If the satellites aren't working, do you really think you'll be able to get enough gas to move to a different part of the country? Do you really think that would be safe?

Plus, if the SHTF situation was caused by a nuclear exchange... NO non-shielded consumer grade electronics would work because of the EMP burst. Your car's computer, EFI, etc would be fried. You'd probably be okay with a much older vehicle that used points, no computer, etc.

 

[Altezza]

One thing that is nice about the GPS is that while the the signals may go cold, the database still remians. So you'll still have a good digital almanac if nothing else.

But, the OP stated he has a Garmin auto GPS unit. Unless he has one of the very newest 800 series, that GPS will be worthless in a couple of hours when the internal NON-user replaceable battery dies if the power grid is down and it can't be re-charged. He'd be okay as long as he has access to a running car where he could use the cig lighter charger that all auto GPS units come with. One thing I've learned. CARRY EXTRA FUSES!!! They are very cheap and only cost a couple of dollars for a set of four at Radio Shack. You blow that fuse in the cig lighter charger with no spares? SOL when the battery dies and that's IF it even has an internal battery. Many auto only GPS units do not have a battery as they are intended for vehicular use only and would always be plugged in to the cig lighter.

 

[Dench]

Its pretty well established that if you are in a EMP zone (as in your xbox is fried) that you would be dead or dieing anyways from your likely proximity to radiation

thats not true. EMP can go hundreds of miles in all directions, depending on the size of the weapon and the altitude that it was set off at. it is unlikely a rouge state or terrorist group would be able to build and then deploy a weapon to have a massive EMP blast.

 

[Chris]

It's said that a bomb designed for EMP detonated over Kansas on reentry would produce a pulse that had the potential of striking all of the continental US, most of the populated areas of Canada, and a good part of Mexico. Radiation danger would be limited to the area the debris landed.

 

[theGringo]

It's said that a bomb designed for EMP detonated over Kansas on reentry would produce a pulse that had the potential of striking all of the continental US, most of the populated areas of Canada, and a good part of Mexico. Radiation danger would be limited to the area the debris landed.

Recent article from the WSJ caught my eye:

What a Single Nuclear Warhead Could Do

By BRIAN T. KENNEDY
As severe as the global financial crisis now is, it does not pose an existential threat to the U.S. Through fits and starts we will sort out the best way to revive the country's economic engine. Mistakes can be tolerated, however painful. The same may not be true with matters of national security.

Although President George W. Bush has accomplished more in the way of missile defense than his predecessors -- including Ronald Reagan -- he will leave office with only a rudimentary system designed to stop a handful of North Korean missiles launched at our West Coast. Barack Obama will become commander in chief of a country essentially undefended against Russian, Chinese, Iranian or ship-launched terrorist missiles. This is not acceptable.
The attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, have proven how vulnerable we are. On that day, Islamic terrorists flew planes into our buildings. It is not unreasonable to believe that if they obtain nuclear weapons, they might use them to destroy us.

And yet too many policy makers have rejected three basic facts about our position in the world today:

First, as the defender of the Free World, the U.S. will be the target of destruction or, more likely, strategic marginalization by Russia, China and the radical Islamic world.

Second, this marginalization and threat of destruction is possible because the U.S. is not so powerful that it can dictate military and political affairs to the world whenever it wants. The U.S. has the nuclear capability to vanquish any foe, but is not likely to use it except as a last resort.

Third, America will remain in a condition of strategic vulnerability as long as it fails to build defenses against the most powerful political and military weapons arrayed against us: ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads. Such missiles can be used to destroy our country, blackmail or paralyze us.
Any consideration of how best to provide for the common defense must begin by acknowledging these facts.

Consider Iran. For the past decade, Iran -- with the assistance of Russia, China and North Korea -- has been developing missile technology. Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani announced in 2004 their ability to mass produce the Shahab-3 missile capable of carrying a lethal payload to Israel or -- if launched from a ship -- to an American city.

The current controversy over Iran's nuclear production is really about whether it is capable of producing nuclear warheads. This possibility is made more urgent by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's statement in 2005: "Is it possible for us to witness a world without America and Zionism? But you had best know that this slogan and this goal are attainable, and surely can be achieved."

Mr. Ahmadinejad takes seriously, even if the average Iranian does not, radical Islam's goal of converting, subjugating or destroying the infidel peoples -- first and foremost the citizens of the U.S. and Israel. Even after 9/11, we appear not to take that threat seriously. We should.

Think about this scenario: An ordinary-looking freighter ship heading toward New York or Los Angeles launches a missile from its hull or from a canister lowered into the sea. It hits a densely populated area. A million people are incinerated. The ship is then sunk. No one claims responsibility. There is no firm evidence as to who sponsored the attack, and thus no one against whom to launch a counterstrike.

But as terrible as that scenario sounds, there is one that is worse. Let us say the freighter ship launches a nuclear-armed Shahab-3 missile off the coast of the U.S. and the missile explodes 300 miles over Chicago. The nuclear detonation in space creates an electromagnetic pulse (EMP).

Gamma rays from the explosion, through the Compton Effect, generate three classes of disruptive electromagnetic pulses, which permanently destroy consumer electronics, the electronics in some automobiles and, most importantly, the hundreds of large transformers that distribute power throughout the U.S. All of our lights, refrigerators, water-pumping stations, TVs and radios stop running. We have no communication and no ability to provide food and water to 300 million Americans.

This is what is referred to as an EMP attack, and such an attack would effectively throw America back technologically into the early 19th century. It would require the Iranians to be able to produce a warhead as sophisticated as we expect the Russians or the Chinese to possess. But that is certainly attainable. Common sense would suggest that, absent food and water, the number of people who could die of deprivation and as a result of social breakdown might run well into the millions.

A successful EMP attack on the U.S. would have a dramatic effect on the country, to say the least. Even one that only affected part of the country would cripple the economy for years. Dropping nuclear weapons on or retaliating against whoever caused the attack would not help. And an EMP attack is not far-fetched.

Twice in the last eight years, in the Caspian Sea, the Iranians have tested their ability to launch ballistic missiles in a way to set off an EMP. The congressionally mandated EMP Commission, with some of America's finest scientists, has released its findings and issued two separate reports, the most recent in April, describing the devastating effects of such an attack on the U.S.

The only solution to this problem is a robust, multilayered missile-defense system. The most effective layer in this system is in space, using space-based interceptors that destroy an enemy warhead in its ascent phase when it is easily identifiable, slower, and has not yet deployed decoys. We know it can work from tests conducted in the early 1990s. We have the technology. What we lack is the political will to make it a reality.

An EMP attack is not one from which America could recover as we did after Pearl Harbor. Such an attack might mean the end of the United States and most likely the Free World. It is of the highest priority to have a president and policy makers not merely acknowledge the problem, but also make comprehensive missile defense a reality as soon as possible.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122748923919852015.html

 

[arlow]

And what are you going to use to substitute for the air that is now radioactively contaminated as you drive those 300 miles thru a nuclear cloud?

Do a little reading on ingestion of radioactive contaminants and the effects on the human body before worrying about GPSes.

If you are already far enough west, south or north of the blast zone to not be effected by the blast then if you use the wind to your advantage you should be able to avoid any serious fallout given that wind is predominantly out of the west.