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First gun - vp9, fn 509 tactical, or sig 320

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by maxalex, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Parker Duofold

    Parker Duofold NES Member

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    Or the single stack.
    You're going to end up eventually buying something like this anyway.

    From your list though...VP9

    STI_01.JPG
     

  2. Mesatchornug

    Mesatchornug

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    What Neil and Dennis said. Seriously.

    Get a Glock, Canick, or M&P. They're inexpensive, workhorse guns. Whether you get the compact or full frame gun to start is a question of hand size; you're learning and practicing fundamentals, make sure all your fingers are on the frame and you'll have a better time of it.

    Yes, this is the same as when your parents said your first car should be something boring like an M-body, or a compact import. And they're right for the same reason your folks were - it's more fun to drive the slow car fast than a fast car slow. Learn and practice the fundamentals, then you'll have a better feel for what you want from a race car or a HMMV.
     
  3. amm5061

    amm5061 NES Member

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    Once you get used to the paddle on the VP9 you end up loving it more than a standard push-button release.

    My VP9 is still one of my favorites.
     
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  4. Dradian

    Dradian

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    All good options, can't go wrong with any of them.

    My vote is p320, but like most gun questions, usually comes down to preference
     
  5. uwaeve

    uwaeve NES Member

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    Post 1 of 2

    Just adding another "Glocks are not illegal in MA" vote, the roster impacts only what a dealer is allowed to transfer to you.

    I would not discount a Glock 19 from the support (holsters, aftermarket stuff) and availability of regular capacity magazines standpoints. Just work it into your list and evaluate along with everything else, rest assured you will be able to find one without grabbing your ankles and waiting for someone to bless you with a used one at 50% markup.

    That being said, I have owned a VP9, P320, and G19 (no FN509), and here are my thoughts.

    VP9 fits my hand like a glove, it doesn't take much to adapt to the paddle. I feel like it has a reasonably nice trigger out of the box. Downsides are support options (holsters, accessories)/lack of normal capacity magazines and the fact that 4k rounds in, I have ground an angle into the slide where the slide release sits so it intermittently does not stay back. Been lazy about sending it in but while I am overall happy with it, I will be selling it after I get it back from service.

    P320 shoots OK, some people will downplay the whole bore axis thing but after shooting the G19, I cannot keep it near as flat as the Glock. In all fairness, I haven't put them on timers next to each other (muzzle flip doesn't matter, sight tracking and return is what matters), but it just felt sloppier shooting. Trigger is OK I guess, much more well-defined wall compared to say a Glock. Much like the Glock, don't discount trying to source one without a thumb safety (spoiler alert again: you can). The existence of the thumb safety doesn't bother me on principle, but in practice the wings are very wide (both sides due to ambi), and they make it a chore to activate the slide release and with a (what I consider normal) overhand grip if the safety is ON (pushed up) I wind up smashing my fingers and heel of palm into the damn thing racking it. It's not sharp but it impairs functionality for me. I assume I can retrain myself to grip it gingerly just so, but it's a data point. I really like the FCU concept where I can have different grip modules (stippled, stippled that I messed up, Talon Grip, regular, large for my gorilla sized friend, etc). Overall good gun, no malfunctions but I am selling it on.

    G19 has the support (holsters/aftermarket) and normal capacity magazine availability if you hate money and that's important to you. I can't stand the way Glocks look but after messing around with them that has fallen off my priority list. Strangely I still hate the way the thing looks but it just doesn't bother me because I like shooting it. Grip angle difference (which I was initially worried about) made no difference, I don't have a big problem going back and forth between the two prevailing grip angles (Glock vs. everything). Things to note are that the stock sights are just placeholders. The Gen5 mag well cutout bothers my pinky. Not enough to not shoot it but enough that I would look for the newer MOS model without the magwell cutout on the front strap. The Gen5 oxide (cosmetic part) of the finish almost wipes away, like a couple boxes of ammo in it looked worse wear-wise than my 6k round count pistols. From my understanding the actual case hardening is still intact, there is no functional impact, but if looks are important be aware that it is way different than the other Gen finishes. This goes for slide and barrel. Maybe you're the other way and like the worn effect, in which case a couple boxes of ammo will give you the look you want!

    I cannot stress enough how amazing a red dot on a pistol is, it's not just for good shooters, in fact if I could teach everyone on a dot pistol I would. You get feedback from the dot that you don't get from irons. Looking at the dot, you feel like you have the shakes and can watch it dive out of the window when you are doing the "mix dummy rounds in for malfunction clearance/trigger control diagnosis" drills. I would completely discount the "slower to acquire up close" or whatever, it goes away pretty quickly. For good shooters it's like cheating (you are eventually seeing a red line as the dot tracks up and back down onto target, and timing your trigger break to catch the falling dot as it lands back on target, it's surreal), for newer shooters I feel like it accelerates the learning curve of getting all the skills that make up the "break the trigger without disturbing the sight picture" action if you are willing to pay attention to what the dot is telling you. Also something not often mentioned or explored is the fact that the dot is in focus at the target. No more blurry target, no more eyes fighting for dominance, you just look at the target and float the dot over it. Don't look for the dot at the location of the window, then the target AND the dot are fuzzy. Look out at the target, it's almost like a laser is being pointed at it.

    I have an RMR with a custom pocket milled by ATEi, but unless you hate money I would go with an G19 MOS or P320 RX. The only real downsides to the MOS vs. milled is you have truly clown shoes suppressor height irons to even see them due to the height of the adapter plate setup, and people have complained about the screws backing out. Third hand information but I have heard screws from a company called Battlwerx (haven't looked into this) can help with this. Wouldn't discount a P320 RX with a Romeo on it, will be way less expensive.

    Do not discount 9mm for home defense. I've done a fair amount of research and my conclusion is that any perceived difference in terminal performance has been essentially been erased by advances in projectile technology over the last 20 years. Pick a good round off of the list here, find out where to source a bunch at reasonable prices (targetsportsusa.com), and call it a day. In my opinion caliber selection and projectile selection is like way the hell down in the weeds compared to competency and training and a gun that minimized non-bang events when the trigger is pulled. Basically pick anything 9mm, .40, .45 (some sources include .380 but the advantages to me seem shruggable enough that you need a really really good reason to go for it, the terminal ballistics are not on par with the other common calibers). I'm not a 9mm fanatic, in fact I think any of the common calibers are fine defensive rounds, it's just that everything else sacrifices something (cost, capacity, projectile selection) that there's no real need in my eyes. If you want to dig in a little more, lucky gunner labs has a bunch of ballistic testing on gel. I think it has its flaws but it's a pretty reasonable database to look through.

    At the end of the day, my earnest advice is to buy any reliable 9mm handgun, seek quality training (Sig Academy is a great local resource, start with Handgun 102 if you have shot before, understand and practice muzzle and trigger discipline and can work safely with a holster and can generally hit what you're aiming for, start with Handgun 101 if any of the above don't apply), and take what you learn from your training to the range and get a couple thousand PURPOSEFUL (trying to learn/improve something rather than just poking holes in paper with no defined goals) rounds through the gun. Be uncompromising about safety and good habits, and you will be light years ahead of most of the people I see at the range or courses, never mind the common armed citizen that's done nothing but get a license and a gun. Continued below, the forum cut me off...
     
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  6. uwaeve

    uwaeve NES Member

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    Post 2 of 2

    If you want specific recommendations, get a G19.5 MOS and an RM06 (Type 2), or P320 RX Compact. Shoot HST 124 or 147 (regular or +P), whatever gives you the least failures (this takes some money to figure out). Find a good quality ball round that has similar point of impact to your chosen defense round, and practice with that. Holsters should be Safariland, phlster, bawidaman, JM custom, something like that vs. whatever's on the wall at the gun store. Don't buy a Serpa. Surefire X300U-A (1500 lumen) is the new hotness, will give you a lot of standardization for holsters. It's the RMR of weapon lights, but again I wouldn't NOT put a TLR-1 on or whatever for less money. Smaller is not necessarily easier to conceal, having a longer holster (necessary for a mounted weaponlight) can actually be really helpful and stable. In fact almost universally I find that G34 holsters or light-bearing holsters way more comfortable/concealable with a G19 length slide. A good start might be a phlster Floodlight if you want adaptability (AIWB or strongside IWB, retains on an X300 and will take most autoloaders) or Spotlight or Classic (AIWB with or without weaponlight) if you settle on a gun.

    Want to spend more? Get a non-MOS slide (this opens up Gen4, I happen to like the finger grooves and there is more support for the Gen4 at this point, which will change with time) and get it milled by ATEi with the pro cut, they cut it to the dimensions on YOUR RMR. While you're at it get at least front serrations cut into it, ideally get the front and rear serrations widened/deepened and the top of the slide serrations and get it all renitrided. This will leave you without a gun for like 3-10 weeks so unless you are super patient maybe do this with a second gun, or buy two and use one as your irons gun and one as your dot gun.

    Want to spend less? P320 RX compact.

    The best trusted resource I have found is Primary & Secondary for information and training vetting. You can support them for like $5 a month and get access to a discord server where a lot of people that shoot guns at people for a living will answer dumb questions and generally expose trash science and gun culture jingoism AND you get like 15% discount codes for a lot of vendors. I have saved so much money on RMRs and X300s and holsters alone from that deal and the access to people willing to help raise the standard for regular guys is priceless in my opinion.

    Do not discount competition formats like USPSA/IDPA. They are friendly communities, a lot of people I trust recommend them, they keep you safe and expose you to problem-solving on the move in a 3-d environment with clear metrics and safely induced stress. The "kilt in the streets" downsides are in my opinion overblown and the principles and skills emphasized make safe and hair-on-fire GOOD shooters. I haven't even competed yet (plan to) but I try to make it to open practices and it's eye opening. Don't get wrapped around the axle trying to win or fit in a certain division or game the thing, just bring what you have and shoot and learn in my opinion.

    Good luck, be safe, inform yourself, question everything, spend money where it counts (training and ammo), be safe. (also be safe).
     
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  7. DarthRevan

    DarthRevan Instructor NES Member

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    M&P 9 isnt a sexy gun, but it is a known, low cost, 3rd party supported model.

    Just to add even further choices to an already hard one to make.

    But buy a beretta
     
  8. greencobra

    greencobra NES Member

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    buy a glock and be done with it.
     
  9. Roland Deschain

    Roland Deschain NES Member

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    uwaeve posted a lot of good information. The P&S guys have a good community... for the most part. I just don't like the arm breaking level of patting themselves on the back that I've seen. Red Dots and Iron sights both have pros and cons. Make sure you train with both, the other thing I would recommend is shoot at distance. Distance will expose your fundamental flaws in a way that shooting at 'defensive distances' (read: making excuses for not stretching out your abilities) never will. You should be able to hold A-zone at 25 yards easily (eventually) when taking your time, and I actually spend time working on 3"x5" cards at that distance.

    If you want a really good initial cost-effective setup to try out a red dot that won't immediately commit you to it, or break the bank... Get a G17 MOS and a Vortex Venom. I would recommend a 3moa over a 6moa, just so you can work easier out to 50 yards, although it's really not a huge deal.
     
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  10. Squib308

    Squib308 NES Member

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    all 3 of those are fine pistols. i woudl go with the FN 509 or VP9 over the P320. agree w above checkout the Canik TP9SF and variants. they are PPQ clones and excellent value.
     
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  11. RapidTransit

    RapidTransit NES Member

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    I can only speak for the VP9, but I wouldn't fret over those choices, buy the cheapest of the 3 because you'll probably end up buying the other 2 anyways.
     
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  12. Out of Battery Firearms

    Out of Battery Firearms Dealer NES Member

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    I'd have to recommend you shoot any gun first. But this is the only 9mm I am running at the range, Apex trigger makes it awesome, parker mountain Compensator, shoots incredibly flat

     
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  13. maxalex

    maxalex

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    What holster do you use?
     
  14. Bistro

    Bistro NES Member

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    Just get a glock 17 or 19 shoot it factory,(which feels great to me) then mod if needed.

    Vp9-ehh, cheap striker version of their p-series models. Pinnacle for hk was their usp series, now those are work horses.

    Sig- sig can’t make a good gun even if they stole the plans from someone else, they will just f*** it up and make you the test subject. Then by their fourth gen model they do get it right and then shut it down to make another crappy gun. The only models that are worth buying is p226 German /mk25 and p228

    M&P- just move on, they blow

    F&N-I bought a tactical but just didn’t care for it. I shoot with a high grip and got slide bite.

    Bottom line, everyone is different so if you can shoot everything.
     
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  15. Labrobot

    Labrobot NES Member

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    OP, great question; I am in the same boat right now. I've been trying everything at MFS and love the G19, but not sure I feel confident going that route as the first gun. I'm leaning toward the P320 compact, but yes, those manual safety "wings", ugh! Does the manual safety cause problems with IWB carry?

    Given me some more time to get up to speed and gain confidence and I'll probably move onto the G19 MOS or G34 MOS. I think I would like to checkout USPSA.

    uwaeve, great info, thanks!
     
  16. uwaeve

    uwaeve NES Member

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    Agreed on all counts. I haven't run into much posterior haberdashery on P&S but I also haven't been around a long time, and I'm not super involved, maybe I should pay more attention. Use caution wherever you get your information (especially what I post...I'm no expert I just had time to sit down and write a bunch of words) I guess is the bottom line. I wouldn't recommend someplace (here or anywhere) as the definitive authority tbh, use your judgment.
     
  17. Varmint

    Varmint NES Member

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    I don’t think boomerangs are legal in Mass, bro.
     
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  18. sigfanboy13

    sigfanboy13

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    I'll chime in for a P30 which is a VP9 but hammer fired. I like the trigger much better.
     
  19. Varmint

    Varmint NES Member

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    Sig P320 avoids the adapter plate for optics. Why not take Sig Academy’s Handgun 102 and ask to use a P320? Sig supplies all the guns in the lower classes if you don’t bring your own.

    But definitely try to rent all three guns first, at MFS or Granite State.
     
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  20. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

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    (One of my favorite movie lines. LOL)
     
  21. Dradian

    Dradian

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    best advice so far
     
  22. northframingham

    northframingham NES Member

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    I'd really like to shoot one of these.
     
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  23. babygorilla

    babygorilla NES Member

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    VEEEEEEP!
    You get used to the paddles. The trigger pinch takes a bit to either adjust to or you file it down.
     
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  24. Out of Battery Firearms

    Out of Battery Firearms Dealer NES Member

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    Black Point Tactical, I had to open the end further to allow room for the comp, few min with a heat gun.
     
  25. bsaks

    bsaks NES Life Member NES Member

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    like it's always said in the numerous threads on the topic, go somewhere you can rent everything you're thinking of buying first, and buy what you shoot/enjoy best.

    I will say that if you get a 1911 as your first gun, you'll get spoiled with the crisp SA trigger!
     
  26. jambroz

    jambroz

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    Big, full-sized pistols are merely range toys.

    If I had to do it over I’d buy the following:
    1) M&p Shield 9mm no safety - $299
    2) spare 8rd mag $25
    2) apex sear kit - $100
    3) crossbreed mini tuck in horse hide $80
    4) concealed carry 1 class $100 (black Friday pricing)
    5) concealed carry 2 - $100
    6) concealed carry 3 - $100
    7) as much 9mm ammo as you afford.

    This will save you thousands $$$ over what I’ve spent the last few years and you’ll be a better shooter.
    Fear the guy who has one gun, knows how to use it...and has it on him...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  27. maxalex

    maxalex

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    Do you mean the 320RX or is there a way to mount optics to 320 without an adapter plate?
     
  28. uwaeve

    uwaeve NES Member

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    It has to be the RX, the top of a regular P320 slide is rounded. The only way to mount an optic is to mill. The RX is just milled at the factory. There are also companies that will mill after the fact. I think he's referring to the fact that the Glock MOS system consists of a milled slide that accepts different MOS adapter plates, each of which interfaces correctly with the slide and one optic footprint. So though the slide is milled, it is not milled to accept an optic footprint like RMR or Vortex or DeltaPoint, it is milled to accept an adapter plate. You buy (no idea what the gun comes with TBH) a plate for your preferred optic, then all three smush together. The adapter plate lets the optic sit slightly below the top of the rest of the slide, but compared to a setup with no adapter plate (like an aftermarket milled Glock slide or an P320 RX setup), it sits quite a bit higher.

    edit: Keep in mind I don't own either an MOS or P320 RX, I'm going off pictures and my decision to get my G19 slide milled aftermarket as opposed to the other two (MOS and RX) that I researched when making my decision. Take my info with a shaker of salt.
     
  29. Dradian

    Dradian

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    unless you go the M17 route. It is setup for the Delta Point Pro
     
  30. glockforlife

    glockforlife

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    For EDC, my vote would be Glock 19 Generation 4 or 5 by a long shot. If you are patient, you should be able to pick one up from the Classifieds here. My nephew has a VP9. I have shot it. Very accurate, very nice trigger, well made handgun. I am with you on the Mag Release. Very awkward!
     

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