e-FA10. It's officially a mess!

[ntomsw]

Who cares if we are 'hording' forms. **** Guida and everything he stands for. If I want to stock a few forms so I have enough for a year or 2 that's my business not his. Nice that he is trolling NES though just to find that information out. That is the most important thing for him with all the FRB ****s up everyday? Whether or not someone has 4 forms or 20 forms? GMAFB.

Guida is a hack, and I agree with that 100%. I hope he fails miserably as a lawyer too.

 

[namedpipes]

This from Jason directly . . .

They did mail them to us upon request until Jason saw people on NES bragging about scooping a stash of forms! FRB was paying for the forms out of a continually diminishing budget (cuts each year) and it pissed him off, so he stopped sending to individuals.

Just reporting what I was told . . .

It would cost FRB next to nothing to contract hire a competent* programmer to revise the scanning system to modern standards. Then they could simply tell people to print their own forms again, scan them as they come in and then shred the paper. Heck, if they asked the Comp Sci dept at MIT they'd probably get the coding for free.

Compare that to the cost of having carbonless forms printed and distributed.

* ETA: Clearly not the same idiot programmers that cobbled together the e-FA-10 website.

 

[Kicker96FS]

I hope Jason reads that post! ^^^^

 

[cekim]

This from Jason directly . . .

They did mail them to us upon request until Jason saw people on NES bragging about scooping a stash of forms! FRB was paying for the forms out of a continually diminishing budget (cuts each year) and it pissed him off, so he stopped sending to individuals.

Just reporting what I was told . . .

If it was costing them too much, perhaps they should report to the appropriate committees that it would be wise to take GOAL's advice (as well as that of the constitution) and stop collecting this information?

You don't get to run a regulatory agency out of spite for the actions of a few people. That is pretty petty and sad frankly.

 

[dcmdon]

This from Jason directly . . .

They did mail them to us upon request until Jason saw people on NES bragging about scooping a stash of forms! FRB was paying for the forms out of a continually diminishing budget (cuts each year) and it pissed him off, so he stopped sending to individuals.

Just reporting what I was told . . .

This may be true. But human nature is to hoard something when it is perceived as being scarce, or when it is perceived that it will become scarce in the future.

A clear, concise statement from Mr. Guida stating that they will continue to make paper FA-10s available for the foreseeable future while continuing to provide them to individuals as requested would go a long way to remove the perceived need to hoard these forms.

When was the last time you hoarded a DMV form? Never?? Well thats because you are confident that they will be available in the future, and if for some reason they are scarce when you need to renew your registration, there will be some kind of workaround or extended deadline. Further, you (correctly) don't perceive that the government is trying to stifle or chill your use of a car.

So, with all that said, Mr. Guida's complaint about hoarding is a red herring. He (or his predecessor) created the situation where we feel that hoarding is necessary. You can't have it both ways.

Don

p.s. I guess, he can have it both ways. Since all this gun stuff is for all practical purposes a privilege, not a right.

 

[dcmdon]

It would cost FRB next to nothing to contract hire a competent* programmer to revise the scanning system to modern standards. Then they could simply tell people to print their own forms again, scan them as they come in and then shred the paper. Heck, if they asked the Comp Sci dept at MIT they'd probably get the coding for free.

Compare that to the cost of having carbonless forms printed and distributed.

* ETA: Clearly not the same idiot programmers that cobbled together the e-FA-10 website.

The complaint will probably be that the printed PDFs are not serialized. This is another red herring. Go to the FL ENCON website and print out a non-resident carry permit app. It creates a serialized app on the fly.

 

[ntomsw]

Also, 1 more thing I would like to point out that I remember Mike/drgrant saying a while back. A lot of people were never hoarding forms. I remember just by myself I did at least 5 or 6 karma threads where I gave away like 100 FA-10 forms. I bet Guida failed to miss that though.

- - - Updated - - -

They make them so difficult to get, whenever I could get them, I was passing them out to everyone on here. Mailing them to people who PM'd me asking for some, etc etc.

That's their job, not mine. I took it upon myself though to help the community, because the state/FRB can't be bothered. With them, it's all a damn conspiracy.

 

[Len-2A Training]

It would cost FRB next to nothing to contract hire a competent* programmer to revise the scanning system to modern standards. Then they could simply tell people to print their own forms again, scan them as they come in and then shred the paper. Heck, if they asked the Comp Sci dept at MIT they'd probably get the coding for free.

Compare that to the cost of having carbonless forms printed and distributed.

* ETA: Clearly not the same idiot programmers that cobbled together the e-FA-10 website.

Funny that you should say that . . .

Back in the early 1990s, the RMV did over all their computer systems at no cost to the state. They recruited intern programmers from the late Boston Computer Society (I knew some of them that did this) to do all the work. I guess they aren't so smart anymore. As you stated, I'm sure that they could get interns today too, those looking to boost their resumes, again at no cost to the state.

I hope Jason reads that post! ^^^^

Won't matter, he switched sides.

If it was costing them too much, perhaps they should report to the appropriate committees that it would be wise to take GOAL's advice (as well as that of the constitution) and stop collecting this information?

You don't get to run a regulatory agency out of spite for the actions of a few people. That is pretty petty and sad frankly.

Problem is that it is codified in MGLs. It would require the legislature to change the law and that isn't going to happen in MA!

Putting guns aside for a moment, once any gov't agency starts to amass data, they will never give up the idea of amassing more data . . . it's a self-feeding mission!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Also, 1 more thing I would like to point out that I remember Mike/drgrant saying a while back. A lot of people were never hoarding forms. I remember just by myself I did at least 5 or 6 karma threads where I gave away like 100 FA-10 forms. I bet Guida failed to miss that though.

- - - Updated - - -

They make them so difficult to get, whenever I could get them, I was passing them out to everyone on here. Mailing them to people who PM'd me asking for some, etc etc.

That's their job, not mine. I took it upon myself though to help the community, because the state/FRB can't be bothered. With them, it's all a damn conspiracy.

No, he didn't fail to miss your and other's posts doing this. That is what got him pissed off and why he made the decision he did.

 

[cekim]

Problem is that it is codified in MGLs.

Yes, their requirement to provide us with paper forms is indeed codified in MGLs. A requirement to which they must abide regardless of statements made on NES until such time as the legislature relieves them of this duty. That was my point. Pissed off or not, it was not Jason's place to ration based on his emotions if that is indeed what he did.

Yes, MA legislation is broken and clearly anti-civil rights, but they do listen to their own when they tell them that their laws are crushing budgets.

 

[ntomsw]

No, he didn't fail to miss your and other's posts doing this. That is what got him pissed off and why he made the decision he did.

I am confused. He got pissed because people who were actually able to find forms at PD's were passing them out to people? That's a reason to get pissed? I am the one who should be pissed. I was doing his job for him.

Another FAIL by the FRB. Surprise surprise. They're hemorrhaging money so bad, than close down the FRB and stop requiring us to fill out forms that we should not have to. Period.

 

[dcmdon]

I am confused. He got pissed because people who were actually able to find forms at PD's were passing them out to people? That's a reason to get pissed? I am the one who should be pissed. I was doing his job for him.

Another FAIL by the FRB. Surprise surprise. They're hemorrhaging money so bad, than close down the FRB and stop requiring us to fill out forms that we should not have to. Period.

Obviously it will never happen.

As far as I know, the law requires 3 things.

1) we use the form provided by the FRB.
2) we fill it out correctly
3) mail it in within the prescribed timeframe.

A pdf that was downloaded from the FRB when it was available, and then filled out correctly can meet these requirements.
If you get a letter saying that its not adequate, consider it to be a receipt that your form was received.

Do you really think they don't enter that info into the database before they sent you the letter? Of course not.

Len/Kevalar/Cekim - care to critique?

 

[ntomsw]

Obviously it will never happen.

As far as I know, the law requires 3 things.

1) we use the form provided by the FRB.
2) we fill it out correctly
3) mail it in within the prescribed timeframe.

A pdf that was downloaded from the FRB when it was available, and then filled out correctly can meet these requirements.
If you get a letter saying that its not adequate, consider it to be a receipt that your form was received.

Do you really think they don't enter that info into the database before they sent you the letter? Of course not.

Len/Kevalar/Cekim - care to critique?

I am not sure what this has to do with what I posted. You've lost me.

 

[exo]

Putting guns aside for a moment, once any gov't agency starts to amass data, they will never give up the idea of amassing more data . . . it's a self-feeding mission!

Canada scrapped their long gun registry after several years and billions of dollars.

 

[dcmdon]

I am not sure what this has to do with what I posted. You've lost me.

because a printed pdf is an alternative to the official forms. I should have been more clear.

 

[namedpipes]

The complaint will probably be that the printed PDFs are not serialized. This is another red herring. Go to the FL ENCON website and print out a non-resident carry permit app. It creates a serialized app on the fly.

As you probably know, there is no useful benefit to FRB receiving from the end user (us) a unique serialized form, either for FRB or the People. It is trivial to generate a unique number at scan time and "We the People" have no way to query the database anyway, so why would we need an index to it?

I suppose it helps prevent FRB from deliberately changing records as they enter them, but I'd be flabbergasted to find that they were doing any such thing.

 

[inerlogic]

just received a PDF copy of the form via email from the FRB........

no snarky commentary this time about MY inadequate computer skillz0rz......

 

[ntomsw]

just received a PDF copy of the form via email from the FRB........

no snarky commentary this time about MY inadequate computer skillz0rz......

I thought the PDF's were no longer accepted? What am I missing.

 

[inerlogic]

What am I missing.

the part where their system puked all over my eFA10 and wouldn't give me a printable version so i had to email them and tell 'em to get their shit together and send me a copy of the form as submitted for my records......

 

[cekim]

because a printed pdf is an alternative to the official forms. I should have been more clear.

It is a gray area legally IMUO (useless and layman opinion), the law is written such that no one may sell/transfer a firearm without a dealer's license except that you may do 4 transfers a year provided that:

The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year;
http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section128A

Further it also requires:

further, that such resident reports within seven days, in writing to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services on forms furnished by said executive director, the names and addresses of the seller and the purchaser

Since MA courts are scared of guns, we would likely lose despite being correct on the law.

From my layman reading of case-law in MA, they have a nasty tendency of legislating from the bench. Specifically extending the legislative intent in any way they see fit to suit their agenda.

So, "letter of the law" interpretations as applied to the behavior of criminals are generally treated with kid gloves and convictions of actual criminal activity over-turned. "Letter of the law" interpretations as applied to behavior of otherwise law abiding citizens are tossed and the agenda is legislated from the bench as they see fit.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought the PDF's were no longer accepted? What am I missing.

They have in fact returned such forms to people and demanded that they re-submit.

 

[ntomsw]

They have in fact returned such forms to people and demanded that they re-submit.

Yeah I know. That's why I am surprised that they sent one to him in an email saying it was ok.

- - - Updated - - -

the part where their system puked all over my eFA10 and wouldn't give me a printable version so i had to email them and tell 'em to get their shit together and send me a copy of the form as submitted for my records......

I get that. If the PDF's aren't allowed though, why would they send you one in an email saying it's ok? Why not just mail you the real FA-10?

Nevermind, now I get it. mlaboss explained it. Sorry.

 

[soam]

Yeah I know. That's why I am surprised that they sent one to him in an email saying it was ok.

- - - Updated - - -



I get that. If the PDF's aren't allowed though, why would they send you one in an email saying it's ok? Why not just mail you the real FA-10?

That's not what happened. He completed a transaction via eFA10, he couldn't print the filled-out PDF that was produced at the end of the transaction for his records, so they sent him a copy of it.

 

[ntomsw]

People need to stop coming on here and defending Jason's actions. It's bull shit. The guy is a hack, and we should not have to put up with it. Are you going to send out real FA-10 forms to every LTC holder in the state? Maybe not. Than I do have an idea...why don't you start mailing out forms to the PD's in every city and town, that way people have them when needed.

I have been to so many PD's that say they no longer receive them, it's sickening. All of this BS falls on the laps of the FRB, and the old director...Guida.

We should not have to deal with it, period. They should at least make it a little easier for us.
- - - Updated - - -

That's not what happened. He completed a transaction via eFA10, he couldn't print the filled-out PDF that was produced at the end of the transaction for his records, so they sent him a copy of it.

Oh I am sorry. I read that the other way. My apologies. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[inerlogic]

That's not what happened. He completed a transaction via eFA10, he couldn't print the filled-out PDF that was produced at the end of the transaction for his records, so they sent him a copy of it.

^this

Oh I am sorry. I read that the other way. My apologies. Thank you for clarifying.

yeh, i could've convoluted it a bit more in my original post...

 

[ntomsw]

I just don't get it. Out of all the BS that comes out fo this state on any given day, this is what I don't get the most. The existence of the FRB at all, and the fact that we have to deal with all this FA-10 BS.

 

[ntomsw]

This is bill filing season. I can't do it for you.

More people need to get on board, as NES as a group. Just myself isn't going to change anything. They will use my letter as toilet paper. NES needs to get everyone from MA involved. That's when change takes place. When we band together as a whole.

 

[ntomsw]

Not the right answer, You need to be the catylist to make this start. When you file a bill by petition you rep or senator or both, is required by law to file that bill.

Step up and show that you have what it takes to lead.

I don't know enough about the political process. With all of my free time now, I will do something. I will find out what to do and what to say, and I will send it. I have no problem with that at all.

 

[namedpipes]

I don't know enough about the political process. With all of my free time now, I will do something. I will find out what to do and what to say, and I will send it. I have no problem with that at all.

This outlines the process. Perhaps Comm2A can suggest wording.

http://www.sec.state.ma.us/trs/trslaw/lawidx3.htm

 

[ntomsw]

10-4. Stand by, this is going to be epic. They have messed with the wrong ma**h***.

 

[exo]

10-4. Stand by, this is going to be epic. They have messed with the wrong ma**h***.

Let me know if you need help. I can't write a legal document to save my hind end, but this FA-10 FRB stuff is total BS.