e-FA10. It's officially a mess!

[turbo38gn]

Why, yes I do. I am a law abiding [strike=]subject[/strike] citizen. I do however refuse to use the eFA10. If I'm going into a private sale that's heading that way, the deal is off.

Well, I am law abiding as well. To be honest with you I feel the same way about an FA-10 that you feel about the E's, I don't want to use it.. but will if I have to.

 

[terraformer]

It SHOULD be NO FA10's....period!

And although I appreciate the beliefs of those who think the e-FA10 system makes abolishing the FA10 system harder, it will likely hasten the abolishing of it, not the other way around. And no, I won't detail why I believe that but I do.

 

[Bill Katt]

And although I appreciate the beliefs of those who think the e-FA10 system makes abolishing the FA10 system harder, it will likely hasten the abolishing of it, not the other way around. And no, I won't detail why I believe that but I do.

That coming from you gives me a glimmer of hope. You know a hell of a lot more about what goes on 'behind the scenes' than I do.

 

[milktree]

That's BS... it makes zero difference, the fact is we have to file a paper, computor makes it a simpler process, period. Anything else that make comes down the pipeline after this has nothing to do with using an E FA-10 form. So maybe you should suck it up and smell the roses.

Are you being funny? I hope so, 'cuz the alternative isn't flattering.

Why on earth do you think there will always be paper FA10s available? They nearly stopped making them a year ago because of some stupid printing issue. Their answer wasn't, "sorry, we can't print the forms, use a xerox" it was "use a dealer" Until, of course, there was such an outrage that they made the PDF version availble. But now that's gone. Why? Because they need a serial number on each one? that's stupid, they could assign a serial number as they arrive trivially easily, but they don't, they force us to use their form printed by them.

So, please explain why you believe the paper forms will always be available. I can see the availability of the paper ones going way way down, so it's just too much of a pain to to comply with the law using the paper forms, effectively forcing us to use the electronic one.

That would suck, really really hard.

 

[milktree]

Sorry, your last statement does not hold water with me. E-FA or FA-10, makes no difference, they have the info and that's that. If you want to raise an argument for that, then make it no 10's period, we just trade our guns off like we are criminals in a back yard. This is not the easy way out, just makes sense to me.

Right, they have the data, but that's not the point.

When you can't sell a gun without a paper form they won't give you, or without a website that's broken, then what do you do? You can't sell guns privately anymore. You have to use a dealer, during dealer hours, paying another $25-$50 for the privilage. Oh, unless you want to sell something that's not on the AG's list and the EOPS list, then you're screwed.

Websites go down all the time, what with budget cuts (a perfectly plausable explanation) the e-FA10 server could get flakier and flakier, eventually becoming unusable. Even if you don't believe there's malice on the part of the state, that it's only incompetance, when it comes time to allocating funds to fix stuff, fixing the e-FA10 system will be *way* low on the list, if it makes the list at all.

Furthermore, even if the e-FA10 system works as well as it does now, it's still insecure, and the data in it is junk; but not junk enough to keep you out of trouble. It's junk enough to screw you though.

And finally, when paper goes away (and it will, if they can make it happen) then only people with technology can sell guns. That's very bad, rights aren't reserved for those who can afford them, they apply to everyone. Even people without internet access, even people without iPads, even people without smart phones.

 

[Billsail]

Right, they have the data, but that's not the point.

When you can't sell a gun without a paper form they won't give you, or without a website that's broken, then what do you do? You can't sell guns privately anymore. You have to use a dealer, during dealer hours, paying another $25-$50 for the privilage. Oh, unless you want to sell something that's not on the AG's list and the EOPS list, then you're screwed.

THIS (the bolded sentence) is the most important reason why this whole thing is f**ked! Many of you will be stuck with guns you can't sell, give away, or pass on to your heirs. They'll probably need to be destroyed, when you pass on.

 

[Coyote33]

What about this don't you get? The eFA10 system allows the CHSB to more efficiently CONTROL YOU! Why on earth does the government need to know what guns you own?

A poorly filled out illegible FA10 form sent by first class snail mail complies with the law.

Why cooperate with people trying to control you?

I disagree. Here's what will happen:

Someone will obtain the total number of gun registrations and divide them into two piles. First pile is eFA10's, the other is paper FA10. They will say that 75% of transactions were eFA10 and 25% were paper FA10. They will say it costs $0 to process a eFA10 and $XXX,XXX to process a paper one, AND there is an additional expense of $XXX,XXX to mail out all these paper FA10's. Lawmakers will slash the budget by 90% and force the use of eFA10.

Today the government has a less than perfect chain of custody because errors can creep in by scanning, mail, poorly filled out forms, etc. The eFA10 system improves this considerably. At some point the eFA10 system may become a trusted source of gun ownership that it will become impossible to protect yourself from the resistration laws and eventual confiscation. How do you prove you no longer own that 1911 that the eFA10 says you have?

Filling out paper FA10's is your obligation to all the gun owners in MA....don't take the easy way out!

It SHOULD be NO FA10's....period!

They're not recorded AT ALL. Unless you consider New York and NJ "normal". And I don't even think they track long guns, just handgun transfers.

See my earlier posts (posts 123, 130, and 338) on all this above stuff here:

The best route would be to eliminate this "registration" completely. I suggest GOAL submit legislation ASAP to correct this. Which chapter and section of MA law requires use of this form again? Can't we just have those sections deleted out?

Too many hoops to jump through to exercise what is a RIGHT, and for what end? ALL of this nonsense needs to end, the sooner the better.

I'd love to see all this filing just go away entirely. Since the database is inaccurate anyhow, can't we get the politicians to eliminate it as a cost savings measure? Think of the savings. I bet they have to pay to store all this data and back it up somewhere, even though it is inaccurate and useless. A lot of personnel time and data efforts are being made here for nothing. Isn't storage of sales transactions illegal at the federal level? Can't that happen here?

 

[MetalgodZ]

Right, they have the data, but that's not the point.

When you can't sell a gun without a paper form they won't give you, or without a website that's broken, then what do you do? You can't sell guns privately anymore. You have to use a dealer, during dealer hours, paying another $25-$50 for the privilage. Oh, unless you want to sell something that's not on the AG's list and the EOPS list, then you're screwed.

THIS (the bolded sentence) is the most important reason why this whole thing is f**ked! Many of you will be stuck with guns you can't sell, give away, or pass on to your heirs. They'll probably need to be destroyed, when you pass on.

QFT.

Those of you who are going the electronic route for your own convenience are tying the noose around the neck of your fellow gun owners. It's none of their damned business, and your cooperation either out of sheer laziness or to make things easier on yourself makes you no better than those who vote to take yours away.

To whoever is complying with this "because it's easier for me," or because "it doesn't hurt anyone," I only hope that I get to see your cooperation bite you first.

 

[turbo38gn]

Ok, let me restate my opinion. While at work, I tend to bounce in and out of the shop, when I respond I tend to shortcut my thoughts. I believe I wasnot clear in a few areas.


1. First of all the root of the problem is having to fill out the FA-10 in the first place, I think we all agree, that is where the real issue stands....

2. Now that has been around for a long time and what the form does is give a record to the state of a private gun sale transaction, I think we all agree on that.

3. I may be wrong, but along with a paper trail, I'm pretty sure the FA-10's are then put into a computor for further organization and streamlining. I am quite certain of this especially after calling for a copy of an E-FA transaction I didn't make a copy of. While speaking with the agent, I could hear him basically going through the computor screen to find the transaction.

4. I didn't say the FA-10 would be around forever, but I do believe that they should be in the loop to prevent what a few have said would happen should there be a problem with the website. Also, for those that live in the back country of Ma. and never saw a computor or cell phone, etc...

5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

I'm sure I can add to this, but I have other things going on and have spent enough time explaining my stand. I am all for supporting our rights and freedom, I just don't see this as the stand that makes a differance.

Sons of Guns is kinda funny tonite...

 

[turbo38gn]

QFT.

Those of you who are going the electronic route for your own convenience are tying the noose around the neck of your fellow gun owners. It's none of their damned business, and your cooperation either out of sheer laziness or to make things easier on yourself makes you no better than those who vote to take yours away.

To whoever is complying with this "because it's easier for me," or because "it doesn't hurt anyone," I only hope that I get to see your cooperation bite you first.

kmaZZZZ... This is a BS and idiotic statement. You have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[glide]

5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

Okay. Seriously. What state agency do you work for?

 

[daltrey99]

Okay. Seriously. What state agency do you work for?

I agree. That it absurd!! Maybe we should register how much toilet paper we buy so an unethical person doesnt take a dump and not pay for town sewage costs. Its not 1776 anymore, we arent using outhouses. Let the government into our lives even more

 

[turbo38gn]

I agree. That it absurd!! Maybe we should register how much toilet paper we buy so an unethical person doesnt take a dump and not pay for town sewage costs. Its not 1776 anymore, we arent using outhouses. Let the government into our lives even more

Okay. Seriously. What state agency do you work for?

What part of what I said don't you get, these are the rules we are forced to live by, I simply pointed out what I perceive is the reasons, E-FA-10 does not let anyone into your life anymore than an FA-10 does. I don't want this anymore than anyone else does, simply pointing out the obvious...

 

[daltrey99]

I realise it is Mass law, but your statement about unethical people baffles me. How come other states without this "registration" do not have issues? The whole idea of not having a registration is so the government doesnt have a list of weapons so if/when they decide to knock down your door and collect your guns by using the registration list. Mass uses the half assed excuse about not registering the gun but the "transaction" it is a load of crap and should be abolished.

 

[milktree]

2. Now that has been around for a long time and what the form does is give a record to the state of a private gun sale transaction, I think we all agree on that.

Yes, and it's unnecessary. Lots of states have no such requirement with zero problems. Furthermore, the system is seriously flawed, so they don't know what you really have anyway. There is no mechanism whatsoever to take a gun off the list of what they think you have. If I sell you a gun, and you sell it to Fred, and Fred sells it to Sally, a search of me, you, Fred, or Sally will all show that gun as part of our collection.

3. I may be wrong, but along with a paper trail, I'm pretty sure the FA-10's are then put into a computor for further organization and streamlining. I am quite certain of this especially after calling for a copy of an E-FA transaction I didn't make a copy of. While speaking with the agent, I could hear him basically going through the computor screen to find the transaction.

Yes, you're right. But that's not the point.

4. I didn't say the FA-10 would be around forever, but I do believe that they should be in the loop to prevent what a few have said would happen should there be a problem with the website. Also, for those that live in the back country of Ma. and never saw a computor or cell phone, etc...

Are you really saying that there are rights that only certain people have? Is that really what you mean? When you say, "this is a right, but you have to have a computer or a modern cell phone and modern cell service to exercise it" it's not a right. Would you also be in favor of requiring a computer or smart phone and internet access to register to vote?

5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

Bullshit. None of this prevents anyone who's willing to break the law from doing so. Anyone can buy a lot of guns, have a burglary, fill out an FA10 (or e-FA10) reporting them stolen, and sell them. Anyone can break into a house and steal guns and sell them. This registration nonsense does *nothing* to prevent anything. The only thing it does is create pitfalls and traps for people who are otherwise trying to follow the law.

 

[Coyote33]

Yes, and it's unnecessary. Lots of states have no such requirement with zero problems. Furthermore, the system is seriously flawed, so they don't know what you really have anyway. There is no mechanism whatsoever to take a gun off the list of what they think you have. If I sell you a gun, and you sell it to Fred, and Fred sells it to Sally, a search of me, you, Fred, or Sally will all show that gun as part of our collection. .

Hey, that's a GREAT idea. Have an FA-10 party. Have some cheap $75 .22 rifle, and have 200 people all fill out consecutive FA-10's to each other on the same day. The gun wouldn't even need to be there. It could be at the first person's house, and then get delivered to the last person at the end of the day. That would be a great gimmick for the April 15 Tax protest rally in Worcester. Just have a table for people to fill FA-10's all day for the same gun.

 

[MtRiverCharlie]

How did a discussion about the E-FA-10 system turn into an 'out yourself' thread?

Use the paper copies! What is so hard about this?

No ones received a returned PDF print out either.....

 

[Bill Katt]

No ones received a returned PDF print out either.....

Yes they have.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/149327-Confirmed-instances-of-pdf-paper-FA-10-form-rejection-by-MA-FRB

 

[milktree]

How did a discussion about the E-FA-10 system turn into an 'out yourself' thread?

All threads end up that way.

Use the paper copies! What is so hard about this?

My point exactly. Get some carbon paper and fill out the state's, the seller's, and the buyer's copy all at once.

No ones received a returned PDF print out either.....

That's not true. They're returning home printed ones now, even those printed from the PDF they published:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...s-of-pdf-paper-FA-10-form-rejection-by-MA-FRB

 

[enbloc]

.

 

[cekim]

This.

How come free states don't use an FA-10 like in Mass? Are the residents of those states more responsible then us? No. Only better represented.

Mass has been abusing, killing, burning, oppressing its citizens for longer than the United States has existed. It's a tradition...

 

[dwarven1]

5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

You have GOT to be ****ing kidding me - registration to prevent selling them on the black market? Why is that needed when the ATF will sell you all you need down in the SouthWest? Welcome to NES, Martha. Thanks for outing yourself. Oh, and it's spelled "computer".

 

[exo]

1. First of all the root of the problem is having to fill out the FA-10 in the first place, I think we all agree, that is where the real issue stands....

snip

5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

Do you not see that these two beliefs of yours are completely at at odds with each other? Also, how the heck does filling out a FA-10 prevent crime? If the "less than honest and unethical" gun owner is willing to commit a crime by selling more than 4 a year or to unlicensed persons, how the F is a FA-10 requirement going to stop them?!

 

[turbo38gn]

No need to respond anymore for me, no matter what I say, you thick headed blind MFer's are clueless, there I said it.. no matter what or how I say it, you are going to twist it to serve your idiotic perceptions of reality. I AM ON YOUR SIDE, I'M NOT THE ENEMY, JUST POINTING OUT WHAT I PERCEIVE TO BE THE REASONING BEHIND ALL THIS BS!!!

 

[cekim]

No need to respond anymore for me, no matter what I say, you thick headed blind MFer's are clueless, there I said it.. no matter what or how I say it, you are going to twist it to serve your idiotic perceptions of reality. I AM ON YOUR SIDE, I'M NOT THE ENEMY, JUST POINTING OUT WHAT I PERCEIVE TO BE THE REASONING BEHIND ALL THIS BS!!!

So, you did not mean this?

5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

That thinking has you as the support base for much of the nonsense going on. It is not my responsibility to forgo my rights to prevent a criminal from committing crime, nor can that actually be done...

There are 2 parts to how this state got to where it is:
1. Apathy of those who owned guns allowing it
2. Lunatics pushing for it.

If you still stand by the statement above, then you would be #1.

 

[glide]

I AM ON YOUR SIDE

No you are not.

 

[Colt Delta Elite]

Okay. Seriously. What state agency do you work for?

Winning!!

 

[namedpipes]

Sorry, your last statement does not hold water with me. E-FA or FA-10, makes no difference, they have the info and that's that. If you want to raise an argument for that, then make it no 10's period, we just trade our guns off like we are criminals in a back yard. This is not the easy way out, just makes sense to me.

Yes, just like law abiding citizens do in virtually every other state.

Yes they have.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/149327-Confirmed-instances-of-pdf-paper-FA-10-form-rejection-by-MA-FRB

And this is about the only way to obtain a paper FA-10, by submitting the PDF version, they (currently) send a paper form with the rejection letter. Despite that fact that not everyone has access or competence to use a computer, they have for all intents and purposes stopped providing the paper form.

Ok, let me restate my opinion. While at work, I tend to bounce in and out of the shop, when I respond I tend to shortcut my thoughts. I believe I wasnot clear in a few areas.

Oh no. You were quite clear:

. . .
5. I also believe the registering of the sale is most important to prevent a less than honest and unethical gun owner from buying 10 guns and selling them on the black market. Unfortunately, this is the 21st century, the computor age and this is the direction we are heading. It will never be 1776 boys.. All these side effects we speak of here are our responsibility to prevent, dishing the E-FA-10 is not the battle, the battle needs to be in other areas.

I'm not sure if you realize that it is against the law to purchase guns and then sell them to people that are prohibited. It's called a straw purchase.

What you seem to want is a law that anticipates the possibility that someone might potentially do such a thing and somehow stops them from doing it. Well, Turbo, *I* have not committed such a crime and I should not be punished in advance because YOU think I might someday do so.

Laws are intended to punish those that HAVE committed crimes.

Personal responsibility is what prevents the crimes from happening...

 

[milktree]

Hey, that's a GREAT idea. Have an FA-10 party. Have some cheap $75 .22 rifle, and have 200 people all fill out consecutive FA-10's to each other on the same day. The gun wouldn't even need to be there. It could be at the first person's house, and then get delivered to the last person at the end of the day. That would be a great gimmick for the April 15 Tax protest rally in Worcester. Just have a table for people to fill FA-10's all day for the same gun.

We really should get together and do this late each December. I can't think of a good reason *not* to use up whatever remaining legal sales I have each year.

 

[turbo38gn]

Another E-fa 10 trans in the books today... good stuff Glide, you should try it sometime..