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Dual residency 411???

rkwjunior

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Hello, just have a few questions about being a resident of 2 states, and buying and selling in both. I'm sure theres plenty here that can answer.

If i buy a pistol in say... Florida, were I am a resident, do i have to leave that gun in Florida, or can it be brought to Mass for use at the range and CCW (with an LTC A of course)?? Also If i wanted to permanantly keep the handgun in Mass, can i do so?? What about selling the pistol in Mass??? Does it have to be Mass compliant?? And vice versa, buying in Mass and selling in Florida etc.etc.???

Thanx
 
Follow the transportation laws, and you can bring them back and forth, as for the sales, I believe if you bought it in Fla, you can't sell in Ma, unless you went through the Ma registration process first.

Is either of your LTC's a non res permit?
 
Follow the transportation laws, and you can bring them back and forth, as for the sales, I believe if you bought it in Fla, you can't sell in Ma, unless you went through the Ma registration process first.

Is either of your LTC's a non res permit?


I don't have a Florida residency, i'm asking for my father who is going to be getting his Florida residency, and ccw. He already has his Mass LTC-A.

So, are you saying that he would have to transfer/register it to himself on an FA-10???
 
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Not 100% on this. I do know, in order to sell a firearm, it has to be registered to you, and you have to hold a valid LTC in the same state as the buyer. Otherwise, an FFL is needed for the transaction.
 
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I might be wrong on this, but it is my understanding that you can not have dual residency with regard to a CCW permit (at least not with MA). I believe from past threads on this subject that you have to have one primary state of residency and then a non-res permit for the other. As said, bringing them back and forth is no problem as long as all laws are followed and he is licensed in the state he is traveling to. As said, selling can be a gray area. I don't know the answer to that, but would think that going through an FFL in the state of the buyer would cover the transaction legally.
 
I believe from past threads on this subject that you have to have one primary state of residency and then a non-res permit for the other.

I would love if someone who knows for sure could clarify this. I know this guy who is a dual resident of FL and MA. He spends about half the year in each state and maintains a dwelling in both states year round (he's a legit dual resident). He has a resident CCW in FL, and also has a resident LTC-A in MA. Is this guy I know violating MA state law by also having a resident CCW in FL?
 
I would love if someone who knows for sure could clarify this. I know this guy who is a dual resident of FL and MA. He spends about half the year in each state and maintains a dwelling in both states year round (he's a legit dual resident). He has a resident CCW in FL, and also has a resident LTC-A in MA. Is this guy I know violating MA state law by also having a resident CCW in FL?

Hopefully someone like Len will chime in since he is usually pretty knowledgeable with this stuff. As I said, I'm not positive but from memory there was something wrt MA stating that you couldn't have a dual residency for purposes of the LTC, but that situation you describe is an interesting one.
 
I believe the answer you seek will vary based on the particular question related to dual residency, e.g., for tax purposes, firearms purposes, voting purposes, etc.

In general, one is a resident of a state where they are physically present without any current intent to leave. Residency is manifested by objective factors including the state you are physically present in, where you vote (a big factor), where you pay state taxes, where you own property, where your vehicles are registered, etc.

BATFE has said the following (note they use the term reside for the second question which is not necessarily the same as being a resident of the state for any other purpose):

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

Examples are present in 27 CFR 478.11 (weird huh):


State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4. A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.




Assuming you lived 182.625 days in one state and 182.625 day in state 2, then where are you considered a permanent resident? In many instances, a court will look to where you vote, where you have a driver's license, where your cars are registered, etc. as the state of permanent residence. To my knowledge, no state will give you a driver's license generally any longer without taking the one you have from your previous state - supposedly some states used to issue a second driver's license valid in that state only (supposedly FL used to do this - call the FL DMV and see if it still happens or if it ever happened). Many states will issue an ID card (not a DL) without taking your DL. So that might be an option.

So, you can reside in a second state, based on manifestation of objective factors and owning property, for purposes of purchasing firearms under federal law.

All that being said, I would surmise that some FFL's might be weary of transferring the handgun if you provide an out of state DL. If the state only FL driver's license still exists, then once your father gets one of those, no one will ask any questions.

Also note that a driver's license is not needed in most states to purchase a handgun - only two forms of ID one of which is typically a photo ID issued by a governmental authority (primary) and the other of which has an identical address. These reqs. can vary from state to state.

While IAAL, this is not legal advice, counsel, license, permission, lottery ticket, or whatever you want to call it. When in doubt, hire your own lawyer.
 
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Terminator, Your belief is wrong!

MA does give dual residents a hard time in most cases, but Fed law makes it clear that people can have multiple residences and buy handguns in each. Thus, no reason that a state can't grant the person a resident permit IF IT WISHES!

State IDs (aka Liquor ID) should be available in most states so that one could have one with that state's address on it plus their DL from the other state (since you can't hold more than 1 DL in the US).

Chief Glidden has advised local chiefs to issue RESIDENT LTCs to their part-time residents for a number of years now. Some will, some won't. Same with Military who are stationed in MA, some will some won't issue Resident LTCs.

Oh yes, and MA has NO control over whatever other permits I might possess from any other state!
 
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I believe the answer you seek will vary based on the particlar question related to dual residency, e.g., for tax purposes, firearms purposes, voting purposes, etc.

In general, one is a resident of a state where they are physically present without any current intent to leave. Residency is manifested by objective factors including the state you are phsysically present in, where you vote (a big factor), where you pay state taxes, where you own property, where your vehicles are registered, etc.

BATFE has said the following (note they use the term reside which is not necessarily the same as being a resident of the state):

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

Examples are present in 27 CFR 478.11 (weird huh):


State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4. A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.




Assuming you lived 182.625 days in one state and 182.625 day in state 2, then where are you considered a permanent resident? In many instances, a court will look to where you vote, where you have a driver's license, where your cars are registered, etc. as the state of permanent residence. To my knowledge, no state will give you a driver's license generally any longer without taking the one you have from your previous state - some states used to issue a second driver's license valid in that state only, however (FL used to do this - call the FL DMV and see if it still happens). Unsure if this practice still exists.

So, in sum, you can only be considered a permanent resident of one state but you can reside in a second state, based on manifestation of objective factors and owning property, for purposes of purchasing firearms.

All that being said, I would surmise that some FFL's might be weary of transferring the handgun if you provide an out of state DL. If the state only FL driver's license still exists, then once your father gets one of those, no one will ask any questions.

That is exactly as I understood the laws, and given that you can't have a legitimate resident driver's license for 2 states, then common sense would indicate that the same would be true with regard to a CCW type permit.

- - - Updated - - -

Your belief is wrong!

Who is wrong? Please fill us in with the facts in this example.
 
I modified my response to make it clearer . . . I hope.

Also, where in Heller or MacDonald did the USSC rule that one MUST have a DL to be entitled to buy a gun?

It may seem odd, but there are people out there who don't drive, don't possess a DL at all . . . it might be because of medical issues, personal preference or they live "in the city" where a parking spot cost as much as their apartment and see no need for a car, so no need for a DL either! Should they all be told that they can't own a gun??
 
I modified my response to make it clearer . . . I hope.

Also, where in Heller or MacDonald did the USSC rule that one MUST have a DL to be entitled to buy a gun?

It may seem odd, but there are people out there who don't drive, don't possess a DL at all . . . it might be because of medical issues, personal preference or they live "in the city" where a parking spot cost as much as their apartment and see no need for a car, so no need for a DL either! Should they all be told that they can't own a gun??

Len, thanks for adding to that previous post. WRT to the driver's license, that was just used as an example of other types of licensing where dual residency is not allowed, it was not meant to imply that anyone had to possess a DL in order to have an LTC - sorry for the confusion.
 
People get hung up on the DL issue and since you can't have two of them, they extend that into "you can't have 2 resident gun permits".

No such restrictions on getting a "state ID" AFAIK.
 
I might be wrong on this, but it is my understanding that you can not have dual residency with regard to a CCW permit (at least not with MA). I believe from past threads on this subject that you have to have one primary state of residency and then a non-res permit for the other. As said, bringing them back and forth is no problem as long as all laws are followed and he is licensed in the state he is traveling to. As said, selling can be a gray area. I don't know the answer to that, but would think that going through an FFL in the state of the buyer would cover the transaction legally.

Not true, I have a resident LTC-A and a NH resident CCW. I also have a NH drivers license. I am active duty still, but Cambridge issued me a resident LTC because I had utilities to show for it. I contacted GOAL a while back and they said there was no problem according to ATF with me purchasing in NH or MA. IANAL though, this was just the information that I acquired.
 
People get hung up on the DL issue and since you can't have two of them, they extend that into "you can't have 2 resident gun permits".

No such restrictions on getting a "state ID" AFAIK.

Not true, I have a resident LTC-A and a NH resident CCW. I also have a NH drivers license. I am active duty still, but Cambridge issued me a resident LTC because I had utilities to show for it. I contacted GOAL a while back and they said there was no problem according to ATF with me purchasing in NH or MA. IANAL though, this was just the information that I acquired.

This is great information to have, thanks for replying.
 
I love the IRS and BATFE's examples... They really bring a lot of un-clarity to the rules in many cases... [laugh]

Example A: zarnag from lothar owns a small business, not too small, just not large, but he has a deadbeat half-brother who lives in New Jersey, but that is neither here nor there...
 
When did we suddenly get caught up on gun registration? We dont have gun registration do we? Thats just a sales and transfer database.
 
Not true. If the FFL decides to do it its their problem, not yours... Not many will, though.

-Mike
FFLs are required to follow the laws of the state of your residence. If you show them proof of residence that isn't MA, then they should abide by the state in which you show them proof. DL is the "usual" form, but there are other options to document residency. GCA68 is not for violating and generally super cereal. [wink]
 
Not true. If the FFL decides to do it its their problem, not yours... Not many will, though.

-Mike

I should have been more clear in my post. MOST will not, as you said. I've sold a few in MA that were not on the list and therefore they would not do a transfer (i.e. Glock Gen4).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
For the original question, if you do reside in state 2 (any other state than MA) and eligible for handgun purchase in state 2, remember that newer large capacity feeding devices (anything capable of holding more than 10 rounds) that are legal in state 2 and commonly accompany a free state new gun purchase are not permissible to possess in MA if you bring the gun into MA and can otherwise legally possess the gun itself in MA. M.G.L. Ch. 140, Sec. 131M includes possession and not just purchase or transfer.

Just leave those items by the CT/MA line, send me an e-mail and I will have someone recyle your litter for you by sending it to me. [smile]
 
For the original question, if you do reside in state 2 (any other state than MA) and eligible for handgun purchase in state 2, remember that newer large capacity feeding devices (anything capable of holding more than 10 rounds) that are legal in state 2 and commonly accompany a free state new gun purchase are not permissible to possess in MA if you bring the gun into MA and can otherwise legally possess the gun itself in MA. M.G.L. Ch. 140, Sec. 131M includes possession and not just purchase or transfer.

Just leave those items by the CT/MA line, send me an e-mail and I will have someone recyle your litter for you by sending it to me. [smile]

This is also true for the AWB long guns!
 
For the original question, if you do reside in state 2 (any other state than MA) and eligible for handgun purchase in state 2, remember that newer large capacity feeding devices (anything capable of holding more than 10 rounds) that are legal in state 2 and commonly accompany a free state new gun purchase are not permissible to possess in MA if you bring the gun into MA and can otherwise legally possess the gun itself in MA. M.G.L. Ch. 140, Sec. 131M includes possession and not just purchase or transfer.

Just leave those items by the CT/MA line, send me an e-mail and I will have someone recyle your litter for you by sending it to me. [smile]

I had purchased a Glock 19 Gen4 that came with 15 round mags and I called every store in MA and NH and asked if they had 10 round mags. MA said no, NH just asked me why in the world would I want 10 rounds when I can have 15. Ended up having to drive all the way up to KTP and of course I bought more than just two ten rounders [laugh]
 
FFLs are required to follow the laws of the state of your residence. If you show them proof of residence that isn't MA, then they should abide by the state in which you show them proof. DL is the "usual" form, but there are other options to document residency. GCA68 is not for violating and generally super cereal. [wink]

The guy I replied to was talking about handgun compliance BS not GCA68. Sorry, I played into thread drift. [laugh]

-Mike
 
I would love if someone who knows for sure could clarify this. I know this guy who is a dual resident of FL and MA. He spends about half the year in each state and maintains a dwelling in both states year round (he's a legit dual resident). He has a resident CCW in FL, and also has a resident LTC-A in MA. Is this guy I know violating MA state law by also having a resident CCW in FL?

I am in a position where we lease a property on an annual basis. That is, it is an annual lease that we pay for and covers the entire calendar year (we have use of it all year, but elect to use it for about 5+ months). We have been doing this for about 8+ years and intend on continuing so. We vote in MA and have a MA driver's license as well as a LTC-A here in MA. We have an electric bill but don't pay real estate taxes because they are built into the lease.

I intend on turning in my MA driver's license and getting a FL one. (People tell me you cannot have multiple driver's licenses). Also getting my resident's LTC/CCW in FL. I am thinking this will allow me to purchase anything I want. I know I would not be able to transport AWB guns that are illegal in MA. The pre-ban ones already in possession don't matter here.

It is my opinion....and I could be wrong, that this is above board and legal. I would like to be able to have some Glocks and FNs, etc. in my collection and be able to transfer them if legally if I want to either in FL or MA.

Sound good?

Rich
 
I started my reply earlier today and then posted it. I see discussion about a state ID versus getting another DL. Great idea. We'll see how it works out. I feel a whole lot better about our winter vacation to FL now.

Thanks!
Rich
 
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