Detention in gun cases challenged

GOAL

NES Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
541
Likes
1,747
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...2009/01/06/detention_in_gun_cases_challenged/

Detention in gun cases challenged
Bristol DA's policy oversteps, critics say
By John R. Ellement and Jonathan Saltzman, Globe Staff | January 6, 2009

Immediately after he took office in January 2007, Bristol District Attorney C. Samuel Sutter took a tough new approach to reducing the violent gun crime that has ravaged cities such as Fall River and New Bedford.

Under the controversial policy, his prosecutors would ask a district court judge to detain for up to 90 days anyone arrested for illegally carrying a gun, regardless of the circumstances. Over the past two years, his office has requested 197 so-called dangerousness hearings for such gun felonies and persuaded judges to jail defendants 141 times, he says. The move has drawn praise from police chiefs and New Bedford Mayor Scott W. Lang, a former prosecutor who says the tactic takes dangerous people off the streets before trial.

But yesterday, the state's top judge signaled that Sutter may have overstepped his authority by using a law designed to hold dangerous defendants in domestic violence cases against anyone arrested for illegally carrying a gun.

Speaking from the bench in Boston during oral arguments in a legal challenge to the policy, Supreme Judicial Court Chief Justice Margaret H. Marshall said Sutter faces an uphill battle, and she appeared sympathetic to defense lawyers who characterized the approach as unconstitutional.

"We don't detain people easily before trial," Marshall told Sutter and Rachel Eisenhaure, an assistant district attorney from Bristol.

Sutter, who ousted Bristol District Attorney Paul F. Walsh Jr. in a Democratic primary in the fall of 2006, is the only district attorney of 11 in the state to seek a dangerousness hearing for anyone arrested on felony gun possession charges, according to Berkshire District Attorney David F. Capeless, president of the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association.

Capeless said he and the other district attorneys hold such hearings on a case-by-case basis and will often request high bail for defendants who pose a risk to the community. He said the policy would make no sense in his largely rural county, but he defended Sutter's approach in the more urban Bristol County.

"We have a lot of people who are hunters who may possess weapons that they aren't licensed to have" but pose little threat of violence, he said. "It's very different if we're talking about a drug dealer who has a firearm while plying his trade on the street."

Sutter, for his part, told Marshall and four other sitting justices that his approach is aimed at defendants who are carrying firearms for no legitimate purpose, and terrorize their communities.

"They are not going skeet shooting," he said. "They are not going deer hunting."

The state law that established dangerousness hearings was enacted in 1994 to combat domestic violence after several defendants free on bail killed their wives or girlfriends. But it has been expanded to include people charged with burglary, arson, or a "felony that by its nature involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or life of another may result."

Even before he took office, Sutter said he intended to apply the law in firearms cases. Under state law, a person needs a license to carry in order to buy and own handguns, and a separate firearms identification card to possess rifles, shotguns, and ammunition.

In an interview with the Globe in October 2007, Sutter acknowledged that his get-tough policy "pushed the envelope" but said it had quickly curbed violent crime in Southeastern Massachusetts.

Lang, the New Bedford mayor, sounded a similar note after attending yesterday's arguments.

"It defies common sense to think that a gun is not something that dramatically increases the risk of substantial harm in our communities," he said.

"We see it every day. We want people carrying illegal guns off the streets."

But lawyers for three Bristol defendants who had dangerousness hearings for gun offenses - one of whom was found dangerous and two who were not - told the SJC that Sutter is violating the constitution. They said that someone can be caught illegally carrying a firearm but not be dangerous.

"It's not reasonable [to let prosecutors use] a statute that deprives individuals of their liberty before adjudication of guilt," said Elizabeth B. Doherty, a Fall River lawyer. "It's meant to be used only against a small number of defendants, the most dangerous."

Murray Allan Kohn, staff attorney for the state public defender agency, filed a friend-of-the-court brief, contending that some innocent people are losing their liberty merely because they have not kept their gun permits up to date.

"Do some people who carry unlicensed firearms cause harm? Absolutely," he said after the hearing. "Do the majority of people who carry unlicensed firearms cause harm? There is absolutely no evidence of that."

Sutter's spokesman, Gregg Miliote, said prosecutors seek hearings only in felonies.

Sutter's approach also has a critic in the Gun Owners Action League, whose executive director, Jim Wallace, said yesterday the group fears a blanket concept will ensnare legally licensed gun owners who may have a minor technical violation, such as a license that lapsed because a city or town was behind in issuing renewals.

If Sutter's policy "is for a prohibited person who has been arrested for possession of firearm during commission of a crime, we are 100 percent behind him," Wallace said. "But if it is a blanket proposal, we just can't support that."

John Ellement can be reached at [email protected]. Jonathan Saltzman can be reached at [email protected]


© Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company
 
Even before he took office, Sutter said he intended to apply the law in firearms cases. Under state law, a person needs a license to carry in order to buy and own handguns, and a separate firearms identification card to possess rifles, shotguns, and ammunition.

[rolleyes] ........


so I guess I need to get my FID to buy ammo now?
 
Well done Justice Marshall. While I have no love for criminals, Sutter's actions are pernicious at best. Hes violating the Second, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Ammendments.
 
So this guy comes down hard on criminals with guns and they're complaining about it?!

Oh silly me, I forgot. It's not the criminals fault. If he didn't have access to guns then he wouldn't commit violent crimes. Lets just ban all guns so these people don't have to be criminals anymore [rolleyes]


EDIT: So wait, this guy is detaining criminals before the trial? Nevermind, scratch what I said...
 
So this guy comes down hard on criminals with guns and they're complaining about it?!

Oh silly me, I forgot. It's not the criminals fault. If he didn't have access to guns then he wouldn't commit violent crimes. Lets just ban all guns so these people don't have to be criminals anymore [rolleyes]


EDIT: So wait, this guy is detaining criminals before the trial? Nevermind, scratch what I said...

I was about to ask 'who are you and what have you done with NWanner!'[laugh]
 
Jim Wallace, said yesterday the group fears a blanket concept will ensnare legally licensed gun owners who may have a minor technical violation, such as a license that lapsed because a city or town was behind in issuing renewals.

The example cites cannot happen, since "dangerousness hearings" are not held for civil violations.

The penalty for carrying a firearm with an expired LTC (assuming there was no failure to change address, revocation of LTC or denial of renewal) is a civil fine of $500 to $5000. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131m.

(m) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 10 of chapter 269, any person in possession of a firearm, rifle or shotgun whose license issued under this section is invalid for the sole reason that it has expired, meaning after 90 days beyond the stated expiration date on the license, but who shall not be disqualified from renewal upon application therefor under this section, shall be subject to a civil fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000 and the provisions of section 10 of chapter 269 shall not apply........
 
The example cites cannot happen, since "dangerousness hearings" are not held for civil violations.

The penalty for carrying a firearm with an expired LTC (assuming there was no failure to change address, revocation of LTC or denial of renewal) is a civil fine of $500 to $5000. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131m.

The real issue is it equates owning a gun with being such a danger to the community that you need to be held w/o bail. Sutter may have pure intentions w/respect to legal gun owners but it's the wrong way to go about it. Sure, he's looking to 'clean up the streets' and God knows New Bedford could use some cleaning but this isn't the way. This is up there with Gemma's knife ban.
 
(We need a double-take emoticon...) Not once did I see someone fail to make the distinction between licensed gun owners (although the public defenders rep said licensed gun, instead of owner) and criminals. Have I died and gone to heaven? Has MA become sane? Yes, father, I will walk towards the light... [smile]

Although Sutter fails to make the distinction in his defense of the hearings, I see what he is trying to accomplish, which is locking these guys up. Something that the judges seem incapable of doing. Not sure his methods are the best way, but it has good intentions at least. The Berkshire DA also seems to get the idea but he also unknowingly points out the flaw in Sutter's plans. It is being applied at ones discretion, which means it is not being equally applied.
 
slight off-topic, but relevant,

do you guys (GOAL) have any statistic on the new "Gun Court" in Lynn?
 
"It's not reasonable [to let prosecutors use] a statute that deprives individuals of their liberty before adjudication of guilt," said Elizabeth B. Doherty, a Fall River lawyer.

Why not? Many law abiding citizens are deprived of their liberties before abjudication of guilt because of the scum bags. That's why we have a list of red cities and towns
 
Correct, but since when did the law matter when comes to protecting us. Illegal overcharging, illegal applications, illegal denials, etc.

Further, the law only "protects" people who have been issued a license under that section which could leave out millions of gun onwers across the country that could be picked up and held for 90 days without bail and declared dangerous. That is why we must make sure he is only trying to hold criminals, not simply people who don't understand the law.

The example cites cannot happen, since "dangerousness hearings" are not held for civil violations.

The penalty for carrying a firearm with an expired LTC (assuming there was no failure to change address, revocation of LTC or denial of renewal) is a civil fine of $500 to $5000. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131m.
 
I understand that it's sometimes necessary to present media information in "sound bite" format, however, I still cringe when I see our side giving interviews to the press where the good guys (GOAL, etc.) make statements are that are factually, and undisputably, untrue. I believe it's important to be absolutely accurate and correct in objective statements as the veracity of such goes directly to the issue of credibility of the speaker when statements that are not so easily verified are made.
 
Last edited:
A 'Licenses to Carry', that is not, for instance.

Nope, the strangeness is the MA definition of "Carry". Disassembled in a locked case in the trunk of your car meets the definition of "carry" (but not "carry on one's person") therefore a LTC is required for the relevant types of guns.
 
Nothing I said was untrue.

You must keep in mind that Sutter and ceartain judges in Bristol county believe that the very presence of a firearm is a danger to the community. The fact that a person's MA license is expired won't matter because most law enforcement officers are not aware of that exemption. It would not be the first time a MA gun owner was brought in wearing handcuffs with an expired license.

Again, if you are a non-resident and are found to be in possession of a firearm without a license the exemption does not cover you. Under Chapter 269 Section 10, you can face felony jail time and under Sutter's proposal you would be held as a dangerous person without bail for 90 days.


Chapter 269 Section 10 (h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.
 
Ideally, there should be a law against being "scum", with immediate imprisonment if caught walking around while "being scum". Too bad there's no good way to enforce that.
 
Nothing I said was untrue.

I took your statement to mean that the courts would jail an expired LTC holder without bail. If the courts actually do that, they will be setting a new low.
 
I took your statement to mean that the courts would jail an expired LTC holder without bail. If the courts actually do that, they will be setting a new low.

I believe you are covered for the period until renewal, pending that nothing exists that would disqualify you.
 
I understand that it's sometimes necessary to present media information in "sound bite" format, however, I still cringe when I see our side giving interviews to the press where the good guys (GOAL, etc.) make statements are that are factually, and undisputably, untrue. I believe it's important to be absolutely accurate and correct in objective statements as the veracity of such goes directly to the issue of credibility of the speaker when statements that are not so easily verified are made.


Agreed!
 
I believe you are covered for the period until renewal, pending that nothing exists that would disqualify you.


Even if you do not renew, the possession of a firearm with an expired LTC (regardless of how long it has been expired) is not a crime. As long as you have not attempted to renew and been denied. The penalty is a civil fine.
 
That is why we must make sure he is only trying to hold criminals, not simply people who don't understand the law.

Which is why his policy is not to hold dangerousness hearings for those who are simply possessing without a license.

They have to have also committed an additional felony in addition to the firearms violations.

Please research all of the dangerousness hearings he has conducted and let me know how many people who just don't understand the law have been subjected to the hearings that did not have prior felony convictions.

If you find any let me know.
 
I'm curious then, what illegal firearms possession infraction(s) would be a felony in and of themselves?
 
Nothing I said was untrue.



Question for you. Do you even know what was being argued to the court?

It will be weeks before the court actually rules.

Do you know that the SJC has already heard prior cases of Mr Sutter for dangerousness hearings and has upheld them?
 
I do not understand your question.
From OP article:
Under the controversial policy, his prosecutors would ask a district court judge to detain for up to 90 days anyone arrested for illegally carrying a gun, regardless of the circumstances. Over the past two years, his office has requested 197 so-called dangerousness hearings for such gun felonies
I'm asking which violations of MA laws related to the illegal carrying or possessing of a gun or guns are felonies in and of themselves (e.g. not as part of the commission of any other crime)?

I suspect there are some (AWB violation??), and could then see such violations being considered "gun felonies" potentially subject to said dangerousness hearings.
 
(We need a double-take emoticon...)
Try one of these:
shocked.gif
schrik.gif

I understand that it's sometimes necessary to present media information in "sound bite" format, however, I still cringe when I see our side giving interviews to the press where the good guys (GOAL, etc.) make statements are that are factually, and undisputably, untrue. I believe it's important to be absolutely accurate and correct in objective statements as the veracity of such goes directly to the issue of credibility of the speaker when statements that are not so easily verified are made.
Rob, most of the posts I see you make are critical of one thing or another... and this is no exception. Why don't you volunteer your services to GOAL so you can be sure that they don't make these mistakes in the future?
 
Back
Top Bottom