Denying gun ownership for mental health issues….

[Individualist]

I was listening to WBZ 1030 one night a week or few on the way home. A well spoken mental health administrator was the guest. They were talking about denying gun ownership for mental health issues. This is my recollection of the discussion, which I admit is likely somewhat inaccurate as I was half listening, and might also be interjecting other similar readings. If others heard it as well please correct my mistakes.

The guy was all for restricting gun ownership in general, which got me on edge. However, he interestingly was very much opposed to limiting ownership because someone had a history of “so called mental illness. “ The net, net of his reasoning was that the overwhelming majority (thought I heard over 95%) of those who seek treatment or are admitted are for very minor issues that do not and never will pose any threat to public safety.

Because so many people in the US take medication or are otherwise being treated for some type of ailment (anxiety, stress, sleeplessness, minor depression phobias, etc), they could potentially be classified with having a so-called mental health issue . They might even be temporarily admitted for treatment to help them get better, which was fairly "normal" given the stress in our society.

He stated that an insignificantly small present of people with mental health issues ever commit a violent crime. Under 1-2% if I recall correctly - about the same percentage as the general population who never exhibited a problem.

Of the rare ones that do pose a threat to themselves or others, his belief was that it was and should be the legal responsibility of the mental health caregiver to inform police and or potential victims of the danger. The client/doctor confidentiality could indeed be suspended. In those cases he was all in favor of denying gun possession.

He went on to say that it is virtually impossible for a layman, let alone experienced psychiatrist or highly trained clinical psychologist with experience in violent conditions to diagnose with a high level of certainty these types of individuals without substantial testing and long-term observation.

He felt that the police, regular MDs, politicians, family counselors, etc. should not deny ownership based on superficial qualifications – such as taking certain medications or being treated for routine, minor mental health issues. He felt that they would likely deny 99% of law abiding citizens who posed no threat.

Interesting perspective, and shows the complexity of the issue. Which is EXACTLY what the politicians don't want to hear. They want simplistic, generalized criteria to restrict as wide a population as possible.

 

[Win]

I've always felt that the biggest flaw with the concept of denying 2A rights to people with mental health issues is that they will simply stop going to receive any treatment/help at all which is the worst possible scenario for everyone involved.

 

[71montess]

Facts will be ignored if they don't fit the narrative.

 

[enbloc]

This is why I strongly believe you should buy guns before you go crazy. Afterwards it's too late...

 

[jsacco41]

I've always felt that the biggest flaw with the concept of denying 2A rights to people with mental health issues is that they will simply stop going to receive any treatment/help at all which is the worst possible scenario for everyone involved.

Very good point. And I believe that most of the people who either claim themselves or other people claim to have mental health issues after they commit a violent crime showed no history of mental illness.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Individualist]

I've always felt that the biggest flaw with the concept of denying 2A rights to people with mental health issues is that they will simply stop going to receive any treatment/help at all which is the worst possible scenario for everyone involved.

Exactly. It would be a huge mistake. I know I wouldn't, though I probably should seek help



But I'm feeling MUCH better now.

 

[Machines]

Restrictive gun laws actually probably saved my cousin's life or the lives of the people around him. Yes ago when he was having trouble with substances and mental instability he applied for a NJ shotgun permit. He was denied due to his medical history. If he had gotten a gun I wouldn't have been surprised if someone had gotten killed. He had a real case of paranoid anger towards everyone around him, and his attitude about guns was extremely unhealthy.

 

[drgrant]

I've always felt that the biggest flaw with the concept of denying 2A rights to people with mental health issues is that they will simply stop going to receive any treatment/help at all which is the worst possible scenario for everyone involved.

I've always been of the opinion that unless someone is a nutbag to the degree that they need to be locked up in a looney bin, then they shouldn't have rights stripped away from them. The "then nutbags shouldn't be able to buy guns" becomes a moot issue at that point. I realize, of course, putting people away is a complex issue too, but in this regard it makes it no different than the prison issue with prohibited person, etc.

ETA: I also agree with the main point of your comment. If you make it obvious that there's a low bar to cause flags to get tripped, people who want to retain their rights are going to avoid seeking help. We're already seeing this with all that tinfoiler stuff about the VA flagging people who got PTSD treatment... even the mere suggestion of it is likely causing these guys to cower away from the system in fear because they don't want to become "marked".

-Mike

 

[VetteGirlMA]

Shrinks gotta shrink and if they know that the average citizen going to see a shrink is going to get a black mark against their name and strip them of their rights, they are not going to seek treatment. There goes their whole business model. No customers, no need for shrinks.

I've met people in my lifetime who believe the UN is getting ready to build concentration camps in the US, and I have met some liberal minded people that are such jew haters they would make Hitler blush. Still I wouldn't deny any of them the right to keep and bear arms. Having crazy beliefs is one thing, hell 80% of Americans believe in angels lol. So does this mean 80% of americans can't own guns? No one is acting out on those beliefs in a violent manner. If someone wants to paste together news articles to prove a vast illuminati conspiracy in the basement, fine. If they want to start killing people, not fine. Most people who hold these beliefs will never act out on them even if the opportunity were handed directly to them.

 

[the_shootist]

Shrinks gotta shrink and if they know that the average citizen going to see a shrink is going to get a black mark against their name and strip them of their rights, they are not going to seek treatment. There goes their whole business model. No customers, no need for shrinks.

I've met people in my lifetime who believe the UN is getting ready to build concentration camps in the US, and I have met some liberal minded people that are such jew haters they would make Hitler blush. Still I wouldn't deny any of them the right to keep and bear arms. Having crazy beliefs is one thing, hell 80% of Americans believe in angels lol. So does this mean 80% of americans can't own guns? No one is acting out on those beliefs in a violent manner. If someone wants to paste together news articles to prove a vast illuminati conspiracy in the basement, fine. If they want to start killing people, not fine. Most people who hold these beliefs will never act out on them even if the opportunity were handed directly to them.

^^^^This^^^^

 

[knfmn]

There are serious problems with the mental health system in this country. Psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists never "cure" anyone. Society as a whole vilifies anyone who has any kind of mental health issue. Denying people basic, fundamental rights because they have a few issues that aren't viewed as "normal" by society is ridiculous. As others have stated in this thread, denying folks their rights based upon relatively minor issues will lead to them not seeking any help at all. That is not the solution by any means.

 

[righteousbarbarian]

I believe in angels and I will not comply!

But seriously, I agree with most folks here. Almost everyone gets depressed at least once in their life and may benefit from talking to a professional. Data shows that people with mental illness are much more likely to be victims of violence than to be violent themselves. There are definitely people who are too crazy (or evil) to be trusted with guns and those people should have their day in court (due process) if they disagree. In terms of legislation, rather than concentrating on this amorphous concept of mental illness and disarming large portions of the population, perhaps someone should take a much closer look at psychiatric medication's role in violent episodes. If there is compelling evidence for a relationship, let pharmaceutical companies (drug dealers) who peddle this crap be sued or, if there is a cover up, held criminally liable. Also, let's stay armed so that when someone slips through the cracks, and they will, we can stop them.

 

[mac1911]

Restrictive gun laws actually probably saved my cousin's life or the lives of the people around him. Yes ago when he was having trouble with substances and mental instability he applied for a NJ shotgun permit. He was denied due to his medical history. If he had gotten a gun I wouldn't have been surprised if someone had gotten killed. He had a real case of paranoid anger towards everyone around him, and his attitude about guns was extremely unhealthy.

I believe that if he really wanted to hurt people he would do it. Get what he needs be it legal or not. Gun,nife,car,rocks or what have you.

 

[Scott7980]

If you can't deal with life and what it brings, then fill yourself full of mind altering drugs then I'm calling you crazy and a waste. There is a huge number of people that are drug addicts and don't even know it, all it takes is a loss of insurance or a job then there doctors orders will turn to a street corner.

 

[Lank]

Isnt liberalism a mental disorder?

 

[familyman15]

Wifes aunt is a huge anti, hilary supporter. And she brought this up..
I said people would not treat their mental health problems in fear of losing their gun license etc, wouldnt that be a greater concern?

Than she said just ban them all got my blood going..
My reply what if they decided to take your license for no reason whatso ever she said for what, i said because they want to. "That would never happen."
My reply was driving is a privilege that you dont want infringed upon.
What about me having my guns, it's my right! She didnt know what to say.

Her dumbest comment was if someone comes in shooting a place whats your gun going to do for you, i said a lot more than your head between your legs praying is going to do for you lol my BIL laughed.


I seriously cant believe her mentality pisses me off.

Shes always like statistically proveb the gun would be used on you, im always like show me this statistic put out by a democrat.
And i reply its funny how once the assault weapons ban expired crime dropped.

 

[Varmint]

My opinion on this is very simple - if someone is too dangerous to own a gun, they are too dangerous to walk the streets and drive a car. So arrest them and put them in jail, or if mentally ill, a mental hospital.

our streets are full of criminals walking the streets cause the system has failed to deal with them - fix that first, rather than going down the road of pre-crime.

 

[Varmint]

Her dumbest comment was if someone comes in shooting a place whats your gun going to do for you

People seem to understand nuclear deterrent. What good is a nuclear weapon, you can't use them without destroying the world? Well, having one makes your enemy scared to use his.

guns are the same - they keep the strong from preying on the weak. They keep evil from preying on the innocent.

 

[knfmn]

If you can't deal with life and what it brings, then fill yourself full of mind altering drugs then I'm calling you crazy and a waste. There is a huge number of people that are drug addicts and don't even know it, all it takes is a loss of insurance or a job then there doctors orders will turn to a street corner.

Well, that's an ignorant statement. You either have zero empathy or you've never seen the truly devastating impacts of depression, anxiety or mental illnesses.

You do realize that the mind altering drugs you're referring to usually help to get the brains chemistry back to where it is supposed to be? Folks with mental illnesses (or depression, or anxiety.....IMO, those shouldn't be considered mental illnesses at all) aren't taking their medications to get high. They're taking them to get stabilized. If they can't get their medications for whatever reason, they're far more likely to harm themselves than to wind up on a street corner looking for some heroin. I've had three friends commit suicide. I wouldn't have considered any of them "wastes" if they had gotten medication to help them. I'd have just been happy to still have them in my life.

 

[71montess]

Well, that's an ignorant statement. You either have zero empathy or you've never seen the truly devastating impacts of depression, anxiety or mental illnesses.

You do realize that the mind altering drugs you're referring to usually help to get the brains chemistry back to where it is supposed to be? Folks with mental illnesses (or depression, or anxiety.....IMO, those shouldn't be considered mental illnesses at all) aren't taking their medications to get high. They're taking them to get stabilized. If they can't get their medications for whatever reason, they're far more likely to harm themselves than to wind up on a street corner looking for some heroin. I've had three friends commit suicide. I wouldn't have considered any of them "wastes" if they had gotten medication to help them. I'd have just been happy to still have them in my life.

That's a tough crowd you hang with, but I agree, some drugs that appropriately address anxiety and depression are just bringing their chemistry back in balance. Their are a lot of people out there that have some crazy anxieties!

 

[MA_Shooter]

The govt can, and will, abuse any list to abrogate people's rights.

People should be able to get the help they need without fear of losing their rights.

 

[MachineHead]

I'm sure it's going to get interesting today at the dinner table. Post your stories with antis on NES.

 

[FreeWillie]

I've worked with psychologists and psychiatrists for over 30 years. The opinion expressed by the mental health administrator on WBZ is the prevalent belief throughout the mental health system. I know only a very, very few that would recommend the suspension of a right due to mental illness. The determining factor has always been "Is the person a danger to himself or society?". If so then restrict his/her right to a firearm but restore it once treatment has been deemed effective.

P.S. While many mental health persons will deny support of the Second Amendment publicly; privately, many of them own firearms and a large number, of that owner group, carry.

 

[Squire]

This is why I strongly believe you should buy guns before you go crazy. Afterwards it's too late...

The Catch-22 that the antis want is to DEFINE the desire to own guns as a Mental Health issues.

 

[In God We Trust]

If you can't deal with life and what it brings, then fill yourself full of mind altering drugs then I'm calling you crazy and a waste. There is a huge number of people that are drug addicts and don't even know it, all it takes is a loss of insurance or a job then there doctors orders will turn to a street corner.

Dude....

 

[AlKatori]

As someone dealing with horrible chest, arm and neck pain almost daily that they claim* is due to stress and anxiety. I absolutely hate the talk of mental health problems and gun ownership. I'm taking a pill to try and lower anxiety, my judgement is sound. These guys are forcing you to make a choice between getting healthy or having your rights and that's just nuts.

* I'm putting claim because I just had them do a stress echo yesterday because although I'm a young guy who doesn't smoke and is only a bit overweight I really don't want to take any chances.

 

[Reptile]

At the gun hearings at the state house in Boston they had a couple prominent shrinks testify.

They all agreed that the mentally ill should not be stigmatized. One of those guys may have even been on the show.

If the mentally are afraid to get treatment for fear of losing their guns...

1. Shrinks will have fewer customers and that would affect their bottom line.

2. Fewer Rx's would hurt the Rx companies.

3. Some mentally ill people who respond well to medication will go off that medication.

As a result certain types of patients could eventually hurt other or themselves which would erode public safety.


The majority of people who have multiple involuntary hospital commitments most likely pretty unstable.

Even though...

Would you believe in Mass that even if you were "confined" which means committed - you can get a note from a physician stating that you are ok to own a gun?

Assuming of course that your confinement was not put into the federal prohibited person database. Mass does not even report their confinements to the Feds anyway.

It is not easy to get confined either since a judge has to agree with the shrink that you are a danger to yourself or others.

Shrinks don't want to kill the golden goose which are the patients using insurance (public or private) to enrich themselves.


What would be unfortunate is if a serious "gun nut" who is extremely passionate about the 2A refuses to seek treatment for fear he may lose his guns and ends up losing his mind as a result.

The shrinks also know that when a mentally ill person seeks help it is a sign of strength, awareness, and health to ask for help.

It is also illegal now to lose your ltc without due process. Unlike years past.

 

[Infidel525]

I've always felt that the biggest flaw with the concept of denying 2A rights to people with mental health issues is that they will simply stop going to receive any treatment/help at all which is the worst possible scenario for everyone involved.

That is exactly what an NH state rep. said in opposition to a bill on this subject when it went up for vote recently , either this last session , or the session before.

The gun grabbers are looking for any reason they can to deny gun ownership and if they can do it for mental health reason suddenly everyone will be denied for mental health reasons and the denied will have to pay to get it overturned.

If taking away everyones right to a firearm will save the life of even just ONE CHILD they believe it is worth it.

 

[Scott7980]

i have watched a couple people that have needed men with butterfly nets and police help to get them in the ambulance. There is a difference between crazy and someone who thinks their life should have been a Disney movie, one is an actual crazy the other s a little btch that needs to stop whining and grow up.

 

[familyman15]

I have depression, not suicidal by all mean or homicidal.

If i ever was to off my self I wouldnt use a gun, just so I wouldnt give more stats to the gun grabbers. Out of respect for every gunowner in other words. Lmao id even go as far as making a note or video stating why when I have an assortment of firearms.
I was out of work for 2 years from my shoulder injury, wife has post partem or w.e its called, and I found out my brother was a heroin addict, when I think about it it's more like a ptsd. But I got treated and doing great now, if anything trap shooting etc has been therapeautic

Shit happens, life can be awesome and sometimes its a bitch.. just gotta man up and go with the punches