Craigslist Killer indicted - bought hand gun in NH with stolen NY id

[Gonzo]

Do they run your SS when they do the check? If so, he must have had both a NH ID and a working SS to match it. I hope State Line is in the clear with this one.

IIRC it's not technically required, but it sure helps.

 

[ScottS]

Take NY out of the equation here. "Y" & "H" are right next to each other on the keyboard. This seems much more plausible that the ID was NH and not NY. Newspapers have given up on basic fact checking in their stories and this is the inevitable result.

ETA: Yes, I know they spelled it out, but the typo may have occurred in an earlier version where the editor spelled out the state names after the writer use the abbreviations. Or notes made on a PC were the source of the error, etc. If state line is still open, it wasn't a NY ID.

Most plausible theory that fits with the set of facts in the BH article.

 

[Bob P]

The Glob has posted the exact same article - suggesting it was written by an independant of some kind.

 

[PaulD]

IIRC it's not technically required, but it sure helps.

I've never given my SSN and never had a problem.

 

[Gonzo]

I've never given my SSN and never had a problem.

There aren't enough felons out there with your name then.

 

[drgrant]

Do they run your SS when they do the check? If so, he must have had both a NH ID and a working SS to match it. I hope State Line is in the clear with this one.

No, not unless you supply it voluntarily on the 4473. Even if you did, the system likely has no way of "knowing" whether or not it is a legit SSN for that name. NICS does not
verify identity- it only attempts to match the "applicant" against the database of known criminals and prohibited persons.

ETA: I think people like "foreign aliens" and such are subject to more background "veracity", but if the criminal claims they are a citizen, that pretty much bypasses all
that- a criminal trying to rip off the system is not going to intentionally choose a method that exposes them to greater scrutiny.

-Mike

 

[maee]

Oh man, I hope that something about this news story is wrong! I kind of liked that shop and the owner...

 

[gunner30]

Calm down. don't want to say too much yet,a sthis just hit the news. I live 2 minutes from State Line, was there this morning, they're getting beseiged with calls from the press, as are the people that do the NICS checks. State Line, as can be expected, did everything on the up and up. The alleged shooter came in with a fake NY ID and a notarized letter stating he was a student in NH and a temporary resident of NH. Based on that, he passed NICS and was given the gun. All legal and up and up. Beyond that, you'll have to wait and read the press reports or stop into the shop.

My own take is they are totally in the clear, doesn't mean some shark Mass lawyer is going to drag them through the mud and make them prove it.

 

[maee]

The alleged shooter came in with a fake NY ID and a notarized letter stating he was a student in NH and a temporary resident of NH. Based on that, he passed NICS and was given the gun. .

ATF regulations do state that a college student is a resident of the state they reside in, when they actually are residing in that state and can purchase handguns there. I hadn't thought of that possibility for a criminal avenue, however...

http://disarmament.un.org/CAB/legislation/usa.pdf

27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS

An out-of-State college student may establish residence
in a State by residing and maintaining a
home in a college dormitory or in a location
off-campus during the school term.

ATF Rul. 80–21

“State of residence” is defined by regulation
in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which
an individual regularly resides or maintains
a home. The regulation also provides an
example of an individual who maintains a
home in State X and a home in State Y. The
individual regularly resides in State X except
for the summer months and in State Y
for the summer months of the year. The
regulation states that during the time the
individual actually resides in State X he is a
resident of State X, and during the time he
actually resides in State Y he is a resident
of State Y.
Applying the above example to
out-of-State college students it is held, that
during the time the students actually reside
in a college dormitory or at an off-campus
location they are considered residents of the
State where the dormitory or off-campus
home is located. During the time
out-of-State college students actually reside
in their home State they are considered residents
of their home State.

[ATFB 1980–4 25]

They might get Stateline if his notarized letter didn't have "his NH address". I don't know if they are liable for verifying that, or if anybody can just walk in and say "Hi, I'm a college student!!!"

After searching Markoff’s Quincy apartment in April, police found the 9mm automatic handgun hidden inside a hollowed-out copy of “Gray’s Anatomy,’’ a medical textbook.

I wonder if they will bust him for improper storage too? I don't suppose his copy of Gray's Anatomy came with a lock?

 

[terraformer]

Most plausible theory that fits with the set of facts in the BH article.

It was the most plausible until the facts came out. Turns out it was a NY ID but the whole state you reside in thing allowed it to happen. Damn it. You know what is going to happen next. They are going to alter the residency requirement, not that this shit would change a thing because the kid would have just stolen himself a NH ID instead.

 

[gene]

Well, Since he was living in Quincy he probably violated one of our strict, no fail, Mass laws because he should have known he was required to get an LTC here within 60 days. Since his neighbors saw him at a Christmas party, more than likely he lived here violating that law for some time

 

[ScottS]

It was the most plausible until the facts came out. Turns out it was a NY ID but the whole state you reside in thing allowed it to happen. Damn it. You know what is going to happen next. They are going to alter the residency requirement, not that this shit would change a thing because the kid would have just stolen himself a NH ID instead.

Newly discovered data always makes you reevaluate theories. Facts are trickling out on this. I'd be interested in how he was able to convince the Notary that he was a NH resident student. Perhaps the NY guy whose ID he stole actually was a NH student.

 

[Bill Nance]

It's not hard to imagine State Line selling him the gun with the NY D/L then sending it to a NY FFL, who passed it on to the killer.

I've bought several guns form Stateline and I guarantee you there is no way in Hell they would sell to someone without either going through another FFL for the xfer or the bad guy had a phony D/L and other matching info.

They aren't screwed, but they're gonna have some paperwork hassles with the BATFE until it gets sorted.

 

[terraformer]

An interesting development in this case beyond the above.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...ccused_craigslist_killer_phillip_markoff.html

Note who was not in the court room and who is probably now realizing the fairy tale was never there. The girlfriend. She was no where to be seen and school is over for the semester now.

 

[cekim]

Anyone want to step up and claim this guy can be "redeemed?"

Assuming the charges are proved, he should be contributed to the nitrogen cycle so that he might do some good for man-kind...

 

[dsm]

Newly discovered data always makes you reevaluate theories. Facts are trickling out on this. I'd be interested in how he was able to convince the Notary that he was a NH resident student. Perhaps the NY guy whose ID he stole actually was a NH student.

It's the person who signs a notarized document that is attesting to it's accuracy, not the notary. The notary is only confirming the identity of the person signing, presumably using the bogus New York license in this case. The notary just witnesses the signature; there is nothing to convince the notary of except who you are.

I suppose whether the notary exercised due dilligence in confirming that the ID was valid could be questioned, but the content of the document is irrelevant to the job of the notary.

 

[derrick_lui]

"Investigators found the gun, magazines, cell phones, plastic ties and a laptop containing "remnants of communications" with Brisman when they searched Markoff's apartment in Quincy, Mass."

Im surprised they didnt use the word clips.

 

[ScottS]

It's the person who signs a notarized document that is attesting to it's accuracy, not the notary. The notary is only confirming the identity of the person signing, presumably using the bogus New York license in this case. The notary just witnesses the signature; there is nothing to convince the notary of except who you are.

I suppose whether the notary exercised due dilligence in confirming that the ID was valid could be questioned, but the content of the document is irrelevant to the job of the notary.

If the notary were attesting to the signature, that may well be true. But he wasn't notarizing a signature; he was notarizing a letter attesting to his (bad guy's) NH resident student status, which means the notary was attesting to the validity of the documentation of his student status. That's where he may be on the hook.

 

[06LemansC6]

Do they run your SS when they do the check? If so, he must have had both a NH ID and a working SS to match it. I hope State Line is in the clear with this one.

I have purchased several guns in NH with only my DL. I do not provide SSN.

 

[Zappa]

"Investigators found the gun, magazines, cell phones, plastic ties and a laptop containing "remnants of communications" with Brisman when they searched Markoff's apartment in Quincy, Mass."

Im surprised they didnt use the word clips.

They were probably referring to his "dead-tree edition" porn stash.

 

[cekim]

I have purchased several guns in NH with only my DL. I do not provide SSN.

4473 does not "require" it. They suggest it might make it go faster, but I have purchased multiple guns where the FFL did not give it to the FBI during "the check"...

 

[dsm]

If the notary were attesting to the signature, that may well be true. But he wasn't notarizing a signature; he was notarizing a letter attesting to his (bad guy's) NH resident student status, which means the notary was attesting to the validity of the documentation of his student status. That's where he may be on the hook.

Except that's not what notaries in New Hampshire or pretty much any other state (excepting Louisiana) do. They don't decide the validity of information, they only assert the identity of the person who is attesting the validity of the information, that is, the one who signed it.

Given that there are no training, educational or other requirements to be a notary other than a clean criminal record, citizenship, and being at least 18 years old, it would be a bit much to expect them to render opinions on accuracy of documentation.

The only thing close to that they do is verifying a true copy of a document, that is, that two documents are identical. Even in this case, it doesn't mean either one is truthful, just that they are the same.

In this particular case, probably the notary took a jurat, that is, they gave the person appearing before them an oath to attest that the document is accurate. They asked them "Do you swear and affirm that the contents of this [name of document] signed by you are true and correct?”

Check out New Hampshire statues 456-B:2 for more information:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/Acknowledgements2006.pdf

Also see the notary manual here:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/Manual August2008.pdf

In particular, see this section on page 21 of the previous document:

Proper identification is especially important for verifications because the notary is certifying that the signer attested to the truthfulness of the document. However, a jurat on a document does not prove that the contents of the document are true, it simply establishes that the signer has sworn that the contents are true.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

4473 does not "require" it. They suggest it might make it go faster, but I have purchased multiple guns where the FFL did not give it to the FBI during "the check"...

yeah, I always give it on the form, but one sop I go to never gives it over the phone. Never been an issue, but I do give it as another ay to ID me.

 

[ScottS]

Except that's not what notaries in New Hampshire or pretty much any other state (excepting Louisiana) do. They don't decide the validity of information, they only assert the identity of the person who is attesting the validity of the information, that is, the one who signed it.

Given that there are no training, educational or other requirements to be a notary other than a clean criminal record, citizenship, and being at least 18 years old, it would be a bit much to expect them to render opinions on accuracy of documentation.

The only thing close to that they do is verifying a true copy of a document, that is, that two documents are identical. Even in this case, it doesn't mean either one is truthful, just that they are the same.

In this particular case, probably the notary took a jurat, that is, they gave the person appearing before them an oath to attest that the document is accurate. They asked them "Do you swear and affirm that the contents of this [name of document] signed by you are true and correct?”

Check out New Hampshire statues 456-B:2 for more information:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/Acknowledgements2006.pdf

Also see the notary manual here:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/Manual August2008.pdf

In particular, see this section on page 21 of the previous document:

Very educational (and fascinating). Thank you.

I am confused, though. Of what value, then, would a "notarized letter stating he was a student in NH" be, if the notary simply attested to the fact that Markoff did, indeed, sign the letter? It reminds me of an old HeeHaw skit:

Sheriff: "Got any ID?"
Hick: "Well, I go this picture of myself."
Sheriff: "Yup. That's you alright."

 

[vellnueve]

A notary does nothing more than verify that the person signing the document is that person, using an ID.

 

[cekim]

A notary does nothing more than verify that the person signing the document is that person, using an ID.

If they were required to do more, it would cost a whole hell of a lot more...

$1 to be on the hook for whatever happens if someone passes fake IDs on you?

I think not...

 

[GSG]

I've never given my SSN and never had a problem.

Me either, but after buying a gun it popped up on the computerized FA-10 the dealer printed out one time.

I wonder if they will bust him for improper storage too? I don't suppose his copy of Gray's Anatomy came with a lock?

The sad thing is, I've never heard of or read about a criminal who got convicted for improper storage in Mass. They use it for "suitability" on law abiding citizens, and a tack on charge to be plead down on felons.

 

[pdm]

Me either, but after buying a gun it popped up on the computerized FA-10 the dealer printed out one time.

But that's the state form, versus the fed one. They have that info from your LTC app.

 

[TomH]

I have purchased several guns in NH with only my DL. I do not provide SSN.

Gotcha. I always use it because I have run into problems with licences due to some guy with my name out in CA.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Well in any case, the news can put any spin on it they want, and the state house in MA & NH can debate it all they want, but the fact of the matter is, their is NO WAY IN HELL, that Paul or anyone else working there, would ever, EVER, jepordize all the work Paul has put into this store and for the people working for him. Everything Paul and the guys their do is by the book and I refuse to believe any of them would put that shop in danger for the sake of a single 9mm gun sale to a low life puke. I will stand behind Paul, Chris, Bruce,Timmy and Don 100%. I am sure each one of those guys, more so Paul feels bad as hell for his store selling the gun, legally by the law, to someone who was hell bent on murdering someone, and who commited that awful crime. If they had any idea, the sale would have never happened. Either way, I support them, and will continue to support them. The media and anyone else who thinks otherwise, I will politely ask you to go and open an umbrella in your ass.