Confused newb questions

[DW357]

I don't know why so many people claim that Lee isn't as good as the rest. I bought a Lee Competition die set when I first started reloading for competition and then I bought an RCBS Competition Die set. The RCBS seating die is horrible. It is consistently 5 thousandths+ out while my Lee die is 0-2 thousandths out. As it is I resize with the RCBS die and seat with the Lee.
I just loaded 400 rounds today and I tried the RCBS again and it's still the same. I think I'll go downstairs and get it so I can send it back to RCBS.

Agreed. All my dies (30-06, 9mm, 7.62x25, 30 carbine, 38 spl) are Lee except for my Hornady 357 mag and 44 mag dies. I had to send back my 357 sizing die to Hornady because it was scratching the brass. Now my 44 mag sizing die is starting to scratch the brass. My Lee 38 spl sizing die didn't scratch the brass but the more expensive Hornady die did.

Just polished my 44 sizing die with some flitz and a cleaning swab in my cordless drill. Don't have any clean 44 mag brass to see if it worked.

 

[dhuze]

.................. I think I'll go downstairs and get it so I can send it back to RCBS.

Just sent an email to RCBS regarding this issue.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Thanks for the help so far guys. Have a couple new questions:

1) how much is temperature going to effect my loads? We taking full moa difference between 25 degrees out and 75 degrees or less?

2) I think I'm pressing too hard with my rcbs hand primer. I'm getting some half moons on the sides of every few. (Winchester primers in 223 brass). I assume these are good to load and shoot while I learn the touch to use to not deform the primer that much?

Edit: I've hit all the primer pockets with the l.e. Wilson pocket reamer attacked to my drill so I don't think that is the issue.

1. When the primer ignites the powder, the temperature in the chamber instantly skyrockets to 3500 degrees. Whether it starts at 25 or 75 degrees isn't going to mean shit. On the other hand, the air density for the 100+ yards between the muzzle and the target changes quite a bit when the outside temperature changes by 50 degrees. Any difference in POI with temperature changes is caused by this, not by the temp of your ammo - and you are likely to see much more than 1 MOA difference in POI from 25 to 75.

2. Half moons on the sides of what? If it's the primer, then you might be pushing too hard. If it's the rim, then it's probably something else. A pic might help here.

Why are you reaming all of your primer pockets? There's no need unless there's a crimp.

 

[Beansie]

1. When the primer ignites the powder, the temperature in the chamber instantly skyrockets to 3500 degrees. Whether it starts at 25 or 75 degrees isn't going to mean shit. On the other hand, the air density for the 100+ yards between the muzzle and the target changes quite a bit when the outside temperature changes by 50 degrees. Any difference in POI with temperature changes is caused by this, not by the temp of your ammo - and you are likely to see much more than 1 MOA difference in POI from 25 to 75.

2. Half moons on the sides of what? If it's the primer, then you might be pushing too hard. If it's the rim, then it's probably something else. A pic might help here.

Why are you reaming all of your primer pockets? There's no need unless there's a crimp.

Half moons are on the primer. And I tried a couple more and I think I'm pressing too hard.

This is all once fired lake city 556 brass so I have to ream out all the crimped pockets.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Gotcha

 

[Beansie]

On the other hand, the air density for the 100+ yards between the muzzle and the target changes quite a bit when the outside temperature changes by 50 degrees. Any difference in POI with temperature changes is caused by this, not by the temp of your ammo - and you are likely to see much more than 1 MOA difference in POI from 25 to 75.

Back to this now that I'm not on my phone (still working on pictures of the half moon): So, based on this, and what others said, it's really just a matter of a couple clicks on the scope right? Or are we talking different loads for different times of the year here?

(I assume application matters and mine is bench shooting for now, and not in competition until I learn more and get much, much better, lol.)

 

[Beansie]

These pics aren't very good because I'm not very good at taking them. I'll try again tonight to get a better one.

Assuming they even load from my phone lol.

 

[jasons]

Back to this now that I'm not on my phone (still working on pictures of the half moon): So, based on this, and what others said, it's really just a matter of a couple clicks on the scope right? Or are we talking different loads for different times of the year here?

(I assume application matters and mine is bench shooting for now, and not in competition until I learn more and get much, much better, lol.)

Well, serious bench rest shooters will sometimes load their ammo on the line, tuning the load a tenth of a grain up or down depending on what they're seeing. I'm not one of those guys. I use the same load year round and don't really worry about it. My zeros don't seem to change much - a click or two up or down but that could be lighting or hold or just how I'm seeing the target that day. (I'm a high-power shooter so my X ring is a minute wide. I know bench rest guys shoot on those tiny targets so it's probably more critical for them.)

These pics aren't very good because I'm not very good at taking them. I'll try again tonight to get a better one.

Assuming they even load from my phone lol.

Hard to see anything in the first two pictures but the third picture, to me, looks like the seating ram wasn't quite centered. My advise would be to try to make sure that the case is centered up in the holder when you seat the primer. I also use the RCBS hand primer to prime some of my brass so I'm somewhat familiar with that tool. I don't see how you could push too hard using that particular tool - it bottoms out when the primer is fully seated and that's as far as it can go. Any excess pressure would be borne by the tool, not on the primer. (If that makes sense.)

As I mentioned before, I have seen "half moons" on primers that I've seated in the progressive if the case wasn't quite perfectly lined up in the shell plate. Also sometimes (on the Lock and Load press at least) a little flake of powder will get into the priming ram and cause it to be off center just a tad. In any case, I've seen WAY worse than your pictures indicate and they fired just fine anyway. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care, just that it looks cosmetic to me. Much more critical in my opinion to make sure the primer is fully seated - high primers are not good.

Also for what it's worth these marks seem more common when using softer primers like Federal GMM. (Not sure what primers you're using.)

 

[Beansie]

Well, serious bench rest shooters will sometimes load their ammo on the line, tuning the load a tenth of a grain up or down depending on what they're seeing. I'm not one of those guys. I use the same load year round and don't really worry about it. My zeros don't seem to change much - a click or two up or down but that could be lighting or hold or just how I'm seeing the target that day. (I'm a high-power shooter so my X ring is a minute wide. I know bench rest guys shoot on those tiny targets so it's probably more critical for them.)

lol. Loading on the bench? Wow. I'm getting the impression I'll be fine with some clicks on the scope for a long while.

Cool. Mark that off the "need to worry about" list. (I'm really not trying to major in the minors here guys, promise.

Hard to see anything in the first two pictures but the third picture, to me, looks like the seating ram wasn't quite centered. My advise would be to try to make sure that the case is centered up in the holder when you seat the primer. I also use the RCBS hand primer to prime some of my brass so I'm somewhat familiar with that tool. I don't see how you could push too hard using that particular tool - it bottoms out when the primer is fully seated and that's as far as it can go. Any excess pressure would be borne by the tool, not on the primer. (If that makes sense.)

I don't even compress the lever on the tool the entire way, and the primers seat good. (Assuming I didn't miss a crimp. Ruined two or three that way, lol.) I seem to remember at Jim's class having to squeeze the lever on the tool completely to fully seat the primer. At this point I assumed it was the difference between priming .38 and reamed .223/5.56.

At this point I've made sure all my primers are a hair under the head, and tossed any I'm not comfortable with (two or three), and kept all the half moons in the to be loaded Tupperware.

In any case, I've seen WAY worse than your pictures indicate and they fired just fine anyway. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care, just that it looks cosmetic to me. Much more critical in my opinion to make sure the primer is fully seated - high primers are not good.

This is what I needed to hear lol. I'm a CPA and fairly anal by nature but also a "big picture guy" at the same time, and was really hoping I was just being overly picky here. I just don't want to be too lax and destroy either of the rifles these will run through due to my being a dumbass. At the same time, if I need to be more precise than this for range plinking... Ugh.

Also for what it's worth these marks seem more common when using softer primers like Federal GMM. (Not sure what primers you're using.)

Winchester. Dude at Shooters suggested I was a little green for Federal because they were soft and I'll trash them and was out of CCI. He was a good dude and seemed to know what I was going to ask before I asked it. I ran with his suggestion.

 

[Beansie]

How my daughter's stomach bug may have saved my bacon:

I'm new to reloading, and have been prepping some 223 brass for the last couple weeks. Well on the eve of my 35th birthday I decided to load up some cartridges in the hopes of testing them Sunday afternoon on the range.

Hornady manual had the load range between 20.8 grain and 23.4 grain, Speer had it 24 through just under 26 (I believe), and the jug of powder said a 25.3 max load. Hornady being the outlier here, I choose to start at 23.1 and work up to 25 max load. 10 cartridges of each interval, 50 cartridges in total.

Loaded my first 10 at 23.1. Was feeling good, even though it was midnight, and figured, lets bang out 10 more.

Then it happened. My daughter started screaming bloody murder from her room. She's 3. This could be a simple as a stuffed animal fell on the floor. I walked in and... Holy Christ, vomit everywhere. The next 4 and a half hours were a whirlwind of clean, washing, hair holding, back rubbing and just general parenthood. Needless to say, only the first 10 rounds were loaded on the bench.

The next morning I had 10 mins to look and figured I check the load weights from the Powder manufacturer on the web, as it only lists the Max on the bottle. Low and behold... 3 different load ranges for 55 grain bullets, and two out of the three are in line with Hornady, and only one goes to 25 grains. So that means Speer and the max load from the power list are the outliers.

So Sunday afternoon, I sat down and made the 23.1 my max charge, and loaded 40 more, progressively weaker charges than the first.

Likely won't get to shoot these until February 8th, and may still blow off my hand, but I feel like my baby girl may have just saved me, or my rifle, a lot of strife.

Then again, I might end up with a squib on the first shot from the loads being too light, and ruining my range trip, lol.

Either way, moral of the story, try and find the silver lining. Even projectile vomit from your kids can be a positive.

 

[jasons]

23.1 of what powder?

 

[EddieCoyle]

Were the COALs all the same? What primers were specified in each manual?

 

[Beansie]

23.1 of what powder?

H335


My loads are like this right now:

21.1
21.6
22.0
22.5
23.1

10 of each. Using the bulk Hornady 55 grains that came in a Ziploc lol.

 

[Beansie]

Were the COALs all the same?

I was coming in between 2.18 and 2.22 for all of them.

What primers were specified in each manual?

CCI in Speer and Winchester in Hornady I think. Not sure I'm at work. Winchester on Hodgen website.

(I might have the manuals backwards... Not sure.)

 

[EddieCoyle]

I was coming in between 2.18 and 2.22 for all of them.




CCI in Speer and Winchester in Hornady I think. Not sure I'm at work. Winchester on Hodgen website.

(I might have the manuals backwards... Not sure.)

If you mean that your COALs were between 2.18 and 2.22, were you varying it on purpose? If not, that's out of control.

If you mean that the specified COALs were between 2.180" and 2.220", then that would help to explain why the charge weight ranges showed so much variation.

When the powder is H335, the exact primer is an important part of the data.

H335 is one of those 'borderline' powders that have some manuals specifying magnum primers and others showing standard primers. If magnum primers are specified, the exact brand of primer is significant, as some SR magnum primers are more powerful than standard, while other brands feature thicker cups than standard, but with the same amount of primer compound.


ETA: In reality, I don't think you dodged anything. Even at the extreme ends of all the published data, you're reloads probably would not approach 5.56 pressures. With that said, go back and double check all the data, and decide how you want to load them.

 

[Beansie]

If you mean that your COALs were between 2.18 and 2.22, were you varying it on purpose? If not, that's out of control.

Okay... Any ideas why the die would be seating them that off from each other? I didn't move the die at all once I set it.

If you mean that the specified COALs were between 2.180" and 2.220",

That happened too.

When the powder is H335, the exact primer is an important part of the data.

H335 is one of those 'borderline' powders that have some manuals specifying magnum primers and others showing standard primers. If magnum primers are specified, the exact brand of primer is significant, as some SR magnum primers are more powerful than standard, while other brands feature thicker cups than standard, but with the same amount of primer compound.

I'm about 90% sure I ignored the one using magnum primers. But I'll double check.

ETA: In reality, I don't think you dodged anything. Even at the extreme ends of all the published data, you're reloads probably would not approach 5.56 pressures. With that said, go back and double check all the data, and decide how you want to load them.

Fair enough, lol. I'll look again tonight.

 

[RImike]

Not sure about you guys, but the more this thread moves along, the more confusing it becomes.

 

[Beansie]

So I'm using the same primers that gave the load range I'm within, so I think I'm good there. (Hornady book.)

Now I just have to figure out if it's my press giving me inconsistent COAL or me, maybe the bullets all vary in length too...

 

[Beansie]

I was coming in between 2.18 and 2.22 for all of them.

Guys, I'm an idiot. My COAL's are coming in 2.218 - 2.225.

That said I measured some of the bullets and they are between .732 - .739. Those were highest and lowest. I assume that is the variance in my COAL's?

 

[DW357]

Guys, I'm an idiot. My COAL's are coming in 2.218 - 2.225.

That said I measured some of the bullets and they are between .732 - .739. Those were highest and lowest. I assume that is the variance in my COAL's?

Yeah definitely could be the bullets but also how consistent your stroke is each time you seat the bullet. I noticed that real quick after getting into reloading last year.

 

[Beansie]

Yeah definitely could be the bullets but also how consistent your stroke is each time you seat the bullet. I noticed that real quick after getting into reloading last year.

Yeah, I was reading about that. I assume I'll get better with time. The biggest thing is how dumb I feel right now. I have dial calipers rather than digital, and it's the first time I've ever used them (reloading that is, been using for a month or so now), I get confused sometimes. A swing in tenths of an inch and hundredths of an inch are two very different things lol.


What's "slop" and how the hell do I get rid of it if I have it?

 

[EddieCoyle]

There can be lots of variation in the tips of the bullets. It's unreliable to take a COAL measurement from case head to bullet tip. That's why a lot of reloaders use a bullet comparator to measure COAL from a spot on the ogive (close to the bore diameter) to the case head.

The seater stem in many dies pushes on the sides of the ogive, rather than on the tip of the bullet. If that's the case with your dies, the 0.007" variation in bullet length would pretty much explain the 0.007" variation in COAL. If you're using polymer tipped bullets, your measuring technique could add that much error by itself.

 

[Beansie]

I'm ordering a comparator today actually. (After all this shoveling I feel like justifying an entirely new rifle along with the $2 bushing, lol.)


I can't really say how much I appreciate the help here guys. It really isn't often you find such a welcoming and patient place full of good people on the internet of all places.

 

[mac1911]

I loaded up 1000 rounds of those Hornady bulk 55 FMJ w/c. I set the bullet seating die to seat to the middle of the canelure my not so accurate attempt at measuring base to canelure to be more consistent than base to tip. They fit the magazine that was good for me. They where shot through my range beater with random brass through out the year. They all provided hits on torso size target from 25-200 yards with A2 sights with the 25m zero.
I used those wolf primers that are for "5.56" my loads where in the middle of the hornady data.

I found the hornady 55fmj to be a pretty good bullet for the money. I loaded up,some with that W844 powder on the lower side of the powder charge and shot them through my match barrel and was surprised to see 1.25" groups @ 100 yards.

I don't load for a bolt gun in 223 so basically as long as they fit the mag and feed OAL variance is not a huge factor to me. When I load the hornady A max with the rcbs precision mic the tip to cartridge base is very very close from load to load.

 

[Beansie]

So I just noticed one of these is crooked as I took the pic.

These went into the die off center and the brass got gouged...

I assume I can't shoot these?

Also do I need more crimp?

Thanks for your time.

 

[dhuze]

Something is not set right. You shouldn't have those marks on the side of the cases. It looks to me like maybe the dies are not lined up with the carrier plate, or something is not parallel.

 

[Beansie]

Something is not set right. You shouldn't have those marks on the side of the cases.

I mean, I'm not trying to be a smartass when I say, yeah I get that, lol. It only happened to these two out of 50. And I'm 99.9% sure it was me. I don't think I'm putting enough bell on the case, so when I feed the bullet I have to hold it sort of awkward, and these two shells came out of alignment within the holder, going into the die off center.

The other 48 were nice and smooth, felt good. These two were off, and based on "feel" and the way I was holding, I'm pretty sure this was my bad, and my setup is okay.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Don't shoot those.

Bell more.

Do you have a case gage? If not, get one. If the rounds fit in the gage, there's enough crimp.

 

[Beansie]

They gage and plunk in the barrel fine.

Nice, Thanks

 

[Beansie]

Even at the extreme ends of all the published data, you're reloads probably would not approach 5.56 pressures. With that said, go back and double check all the data, and decide how you want to load them.

Getting back to this. Even near the upper limits of the set of data I went with, my shots were coming in 2-2.75" low on the target at 100 yards. My best groups came with the load that had the groups 3-4" low on the target. (zero-ed the scope with factory lake city 5.56.) Now I'm thinking, before I just readjust my zero for the lower powered loads and develop in those ranges, if I try and stretch these out to say 200 yards, are they just going to bounce on the dirt before the target? (There were some 45 bullets that were on the ground in front of a target stand yesterday, lol, so I'm now worried about vastly under powered charges just limping out of a barrel too.)

There is no pressure signs at the high end, and I'm thinking I can go up to 25 grains like the powder jug says, and if the pattern holds true should be at my current elevation zero around 24 grains, which is about .7 grains over the Hordany book. This is 223 load data out of a 556 chamber, bolt action. Am I being dumb and reckless here or am I okay in thinking this rifle wants a hotter load than I'm currently running?