Confused newb questions

Beansie

Beansie

Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
1,319
Likes
238
Feedback: 4 / 0 / 0
Don't want to push my luck pm'ing people with dumb questions so I'll do it with the whole community.


I'm going with a rock chucker, and L.E. Wilson for trim and primer pocket reaming. I've got everything covered (need to figure out the comparator lol) but I'm lost on dies for 223's. (I feel like I'm being stupid and majoring in the minors here. )

The loads will be going through an AR and a bolt action in 556. So I get that if I get two sizing dies and keep the two sets of brass separate I'll get better brass life because less sizing, but the options for dies are confusing.

Some people say short base for the round I'll put in the AR. Some say the AR rounds need to be crimped. And I've read reviews that one company dies with another shell holder will result in improper seating and sizing.

Help please. If I'm over thinking this sorry. If you're pressed for time feel free to link the dies I should get and tell me to shut up lol. But any help you can offer to clean up my confusion would be greatly appreciated.
 
I was told you should use the shell holder from the manufacturer of the press.

I don't crimp 223/556, never had an issue. Love my hornady seating die, not in love with the sizing/decapping die, but it works well enough once set up.
 
I like my Hornady dies. They have the least effort to full length resize. Crimping can alter accuracy a tiny amount. I wouldn't do it to start. Mess with it later on once you get a feel for everything.
 
I only crimp .223 when it will be traveling through a magazine fed firearm. SO you'll most likely want a crimp on your ar ammo.. If your bolt gun is magizine fed, you'd probibly want a crimp. If it isn't mag-fed, Than no crimp is required.

I am a fan of the hornady combo seating/crimp (Roll Crimp) Die, With the little micrometer attachment that let's you adjust it more precise than just using a wrench.
You only need enough crimp to keep the projectile from getting pushed back into the case when traveling up the feedramp into the throat.

It might also be nice to have the crimp so if you get a jam in your ar when you "Mortar" it to remove the case, it really sucks if the projectile is retained in the barrel, never a bad idea to have a cleaning rod or brass rod.Just incase when you are first setting up...if you bring it you won't need it but if you don't have it with you you'll need it for sure
 
Last edited:
I use FL 223 dies, RCBS, for everything .223/5.56. I have no problem using a lee or lyman shell holder with RCBS dies, if you've heard about any problems there I've yet to experience them (40 years of reloading). I've never worried about case life, I've never crimped a 223/5.56 round, ever. But I am a cautious reloader, just over time I've developed my way of doing things. I think OAL is important. And when I ready a new batch of military cases. I trim those to a universal length but this one time only, they'll never see a trimmer again. I've found military cases are well under published length, I just trim for uniformity. And I would get yourself one of these http://www.midwayusa.com/product/297408/lee-decapper-and-base-22-caliber unless you want to blow through decapping pins when you deprime military 5.56 cases for the first time. I have fancy decrimping tools but use an old Lyman deburring hand tool to remove the primer crimp after decapping. I know, more info than you wanted [smile]
 
On the crimping: not crimping was what I was told during class, then like an ******* I started reading on the internet... So here I am. I'm leaning towards no crimp, as it is one less thing for me to make a mistake on before I get more comfortable...

Volume v accuracy: "volume" for the AR. Accuracy, once I get there, for the bolt gun.

Greencobra: lol, no such thing as too much info. So the regular decapping die is going to have problems with the lake city? Like massive problems? I don't have an issue dropping $10 on a tool, just won't be ordering for awhile...
 
A few years ago, I acquired a bunch of LC brass spanning 5 years, I sorted based on headstamp, de-capped it, swaged the primer pocket, case trimmed it, stainless steel pin tumbled, and loaded. It was a learning experience. Since then I have reloaded the same brass 3 times, spend the time in prepping it. There was a time where I got lazy and didn't trim a few cases, turned out to be a real pain in the ass due to the case being to long and bullet seating was off. Now I have learned and have spent the time in prepping them properly.
 
As for dies, with the .223 Remington and the small bullets, I favor the designs with the bullet alignment collet, such as Hornady (probably a few others, too). This guide keeps the bullet upright as it enters the die body where my fingers can't reach.
If you are seating flat-based bullets, you might flare your case mouth slightly to allow better lead in. If you flare, you'll want to restore this flare with a slight crimp, but the Factory Crimp Die should suffice or simply run the mouth into the sizing die sans the decap pin (don't run it all the way up into the die, however; just enough to return the flare to spec diameter).
As a rule, you shouldn't require any crimp, if your neck tension is adequate, ie. proper sizing to begin with.
 
NavelOfficer said:
As for dies, with the .223 Remington and the small bullets, I favor the designs with the bullet alignment collet, such as Hornady (probably a few others, too). This guide keeps the bullet upright as it enters the die body where my fingers can't reach.
If you are seating flat-based bullets, you might flare your case mouth slightly to allow better lead in. If you flare, you'll want to restore this flare with a slight crimp, but the Factory Crimp Die should suffice or simply run the mouth into the sizing die sans the decap pin (don't run it all the way up into the die, however; just enough to return the flare to spec diameter).
As a rule, you shouldn't require any crimp, if your neck tension is adequate, ie. proper sizing to begin with.
Click to expand...

If you load boat tail bullets, there is no need to flare.
 
I never flare and I load all types of bullets.

You DO NOT need to crimp ammo for mag fed guns, this includes ARs. Nothing bad will happen.

I've reloaded thousands of rounds of ammo without crimping them for my ARs
 
Beansie said:
On the crimping: not crimping was what I was told during class, then like an ******* I started reading on the internet... So here I am. I'm leaning towards no crimp, as it is one less thing for me to make a mistake on before I get more comfortable...

Volume v accuracy: "volume" for the AR. Accuracy, once I get there, for the bolt gun.

Greencobra: lol, no such thing as too much info. So the regular decapping die is going to have problems with the lake city? Like massive problems? I don't have an issue dropping $10 on a tool, just won't be ordering for awhile...
Click to expand...

I don't crimp any of my .223/5.56 and I run most of the stuff I load through a machine gun.

Go with a set of standard (non-small base) full-length sizing dies and be done with it. For an accuracy upgrade, swap the seating die that comes with the set for a Redding/RCBS/Forster Competition Seating Die (I use the Redding).

With .223, your brass is going to last until the primer pockets loosen up. Nothing you do die-wise will prevent this from happening, and it's likely to happen before you get neck splits. It's not the kind of caliber where you base your die selection on brass longevity.

I've never had to use a tool other than my sizing die to remove primers. I'm not sure why you'd need that Lee tool.

The reason to use shellholders from the same mfg as the die is so that you can be sure that the case will be fully sized before the shellholder hits the bottom of the die.

I've had one or two occasions where I used shellholders from a manufacturer different than the one that made the dies, where I was unable to push the case shoulder back even when the die was lowered until it firmly contacted the shellholder.
 
I've done the Pepsi challenge with crimped vs. non-crimped .223 and saw no difference in function or accuracy. If your neck tension is correct you shouldn't ~need~ to crimp, but if you feel better crimping it won't hurt anything.

I like and use the Forster full length dies for sizing and the RCBS dies for seating. Shouldn't really matter though as long as you're using a good quality brand. I'd stay away from the Lee dies but pretty much every other brand should be fine. (The only exception being the Lee factory crimp die, but I would consider that optional.)

For loading on a single stage I like the seating dies that have a window in them, like the RCBS gold medal. For progressive I just use a regular seating die.

I think the key is to measure the cases carefully. If you over-size your brass life will be crap. If you size just enough and not too much the primers will start falling out before you start getting splits. 10 or more loadings if it's good brass.
 
Thanks guys...

No crimp, standard RCBS dies it is. Have the RCBS shell plates coming so...



I want to get some data points to work with (more trigger time) before I get into competition dies lol.
 
I use Redding standard dies with a carbide expander. The carbide expander eliminates the need to lube the inside of the case neck. Get a case length gauge to set up your dies and you should be good to go. This is the set up I use for the 2 ars and 1 bolt gun that I shoot.
 
While we are talking crimp, flared case mouth, longevity of brass.

I flare My cases because my press is fully automated and this really helps the projectile to not fall from the case when indexing the machine.

Flaring can shortening brass life.....

I Might be the only one that does this but i roll size my brass, then anneal the neck, and trim every time i reload.
Since it's a progressive set-up if the case doesn't need to be trimmed it just won't get trimmed and if i somehow get a someone else brass mixxed in it will be trimmed down.
Of the original 1k brass i started with, they have been loaded more than 20x. so i must be doing somthing right.
They get crushed in the machine, primer pockects get too large, and the rim get messed up so it won't fit in the shell holder properly.

Haveing a brass catcher really help keep the brass clean and keeps you from loosing them...especially in the snow


*edit* I should mention alot of my ammo is fired full auto.. The crimp just makes me feel better and accuracy of the ammo is less critical in full auto, although i do always try to make it the best i can.
 
Last edited:
I have decapped 7500 LC cases with a Lee sizing die and never failed to get the primer out and never broke a pin. I decapped 5000 PPU cases, also with crimped primers and never broke a decap pin. I did punch through a couple dozen tough primers. I also punched the Lee decap pin through half a dozen berdan primers without breaking the pin.
 
It's not short base, it's small base.
I set all my dies based on Wilson cartridge gages. There are way too many instances of dies not sizing properly to instructions. Probably half of my bottleneck dies don't touch the shellholder.
I taper crimp everything possible. This smooths out the ridge from deburring after trimming. Additionally, if the case is dinged prior to sizing, it becomes an innie after resizing and an outie when the expander comes out. Taper crimping minimizes this.
 
xtry51 said:
I never flare and I load all types of bullets.

You DO NOT need to crimp ammo for mag fed guns, this includes ARs. Nothing bad will happen.

I've reloaded thousands of rounds of ammo without crimping them for my ARs
Click to expand...




Here i'll fix it for you
You MAY need to crimp ammo for mag fed guns, this includes ARs. Nothing bad will happen.

I've reloaded thousands of rounds of ammo without crimping them for my ARs
 
I can only comment on lee dies and hornady
Lee Dies I have set up to resize cases back to 0 on my RCBS precision mic. This set up is for my bulk 55gn reloads I use in my milspec ARs.
Hornady New Demension : Set up to bump shoulder back .003" with brass only fired from my RRA Nation Match wylder chambered AR...
What ever you get follow the instructions..... You might want to have a stuck case remover on hand.
If you have it on hand you might never need it, if you dont you will. Lee you can remove stuck cases with out tool hornady you can not.
 
Thanks for the help so far guys. Have a couple new questions:

1) how much is temperature going to effect my loads? We taking full moa difference between 25 degrees out and 75 degrees or less?

2) I think I'm pressing too hard with my rcbs hand primer. I'm getting some half moons on the sides of every few. (Winchester primers in 223 brass). I assume these are good to load and shoot while I learn the touch to use to not deform the primer that much?

Edit: I've hit all the primer pockets with the l.e. Wilson pocket reamer attacked to my drill so I don't think that is the issue.
 
Last edited:
Beansie said:
Thanks for the help so far guys. Have a couple new questions:

1) how much is temperature going to effect my loads? We taking full moa difference between 25 degrees out and 75 degrees or less?

2) I think I'm pressing too hard with my rcbs hand primer. I'm getting some half moons on the sides of every few. (Winchester primers in 223 brass). I assume these are good to load and shoot while I learn the touch to use to not deform the primer that much?
As for your half moon crease I bet you have a sliver of a old crimp inside your primer cup.





Edit: I've hit all the primer pockets with the l.e. Wilson pocket reamer attacked to my drill so I don't think that is the issue.
Click to expand...

1. There are powders that are pretty temp stable. As always though live fire and notes will help you decide. I use varget and my zero does not change much in the cold winter with my AR.
I have a few garands that zero will shift a lot between summer heat and cold winter months.
One rifle is out of control in sub 30' weather no matter the load used.

2. Just something you need to get the feel for. If your primer pockets are uniform and clean you will start to feel it the more you do it.

Check your primer cup for a slither of brass...I have had what appears to be part of a crimp inside the primer cup...if you had a few primers snap in check for junk in your primer cup.
 
Last edited:
Beansie said:
Thanks for the help so far guys. Have a couple new questions:

1) how much is temperature going to effect my loads? We taking full moa difference between 25 degrees out and 75 degrees or less?

2) I think I'm pressing too hard with my rcbs hand primer. I'm getting some half moons on the sides of every few. (Winchester primers in 223 brass). I assume these are good to load and shoot while I learn the touch to use to not deform the primer that much?
Click to expand...


1.) Temp might affect accuracy some, but I've never really cared (it might be a few clicks up or down, but that's what sighters are for.) On the other hand I've had loads that functioned perfectly up here, then when I shot a road match down south I had primers blowing out.... If you're not trying to ride the edge it's probably not worth worrying too much about. There are some powders that are said to be more or less temp sensitive. (Hogden's "Extreme" line for example.)

2.) Make sure that everything is centered up. I've seen that on the progressive if the case wasn't perfectly lined up in the shell plate. (Haven't seen that with the hand primer but anything is possible.) I don't think it's possible to press too hard with a hand primer.
 
mac1911 said:
1. There are powders that are pretty temp stable. As always though live fire and notes will help you decide. I use varget and my zero does not change much in the cold winter with my AR.
I have a few garands that zero will shift a lot between summer heat and cold winter months.
One rifle is out of control in sub 30' weather no matter the load used.

2. Just something you need to get the feel for. If your primer pockets are uniform and clean you will start to feel it the more you do it.
Click to expand...
Thanks. So I can load and shoot these half moons right? Or are they junk?

I'm not even going to tell you how many had a piece of media in the flash hole that i primed before I started looking first lol. Live and learn.
 
Beansie said:
Thanks. So I can load and shoot these half moons right? Or are they junk?

I'm not even going to tell you how many had a piece of media in the flash hole that i primed before I started looking first lol. Live and learn.
Click to expand...

As long as they're seated properly, shoot them. The half moon won't hurt anything.
 
jasons said:
As long as they're seated properly, shoot them. The half moon won't hurt anything.
Click to expand...
Cool.

I might not be lining them up very good now that you mention it. I was kind of blazing along after the first couple.

Thanks again fellas.
 
jasons said:
.......................
I like and use the Forster full length dies for sizing and the RCBS dies for seating. Shouldn't really matter though as long as you're using a good quality brand. I'd stay away from the Lee dies but pretty much every other brand should be fine. (The only exception being the Lee factory crimp die, but I would consider that optional.)......................
Click to expand...

I don't know why so many people claim that Lee isn't as good as the rest. I bought a Lee Competition die set when I first started reloading for competition and then I bought an RCBS Competition Die set. The RCBS seating die is horrible. It is consistently 5 thousandths+ out while my Lee die is 0-2 thousandths out. As it is I resize with the RCBS die and seat with the Lee.
I just loaded 400 rounds today and I tried the RCBS again and it's still the same. I think I'll go downstairs and get it so I can send it back to RCBS.
 
dhuze said:
I don't know why so many people claim that Lee isn't as good as the rest. I bought a Lee Competition die set when I first started reloading for competition and then I bought an RCBS Competition Die set. The RCBS seating die is horrible. It is consistently 5 thousandths+ out while my Lee die is 0-2 thousandths out. As it is I resize with the RCBS die and seat with the Lee.
I just loaded 400 rounds today and I tried the RCBS again and it's still the same. I think I'll go downstairs and get it so I can send it back to RCBS.
Click to expand...

I think most people bash Lee because it's "cheap" stuff. If it where not for LEE there world be far less shooters reloading. All most all the older reloaders I know have lots of lee products.
I don't mind the Lee dies at all. I have several I use for my cast reloads. Only because they where in expensive and I have 9 different cals I load with cast.
Lee stuff is what it is. Is it the best....no Do they have their share of quirks yes but all manufactures do.
I think the Lee dead length seating die works well and the seating stem is easy to reform to fit some of the cast bullets I use.
No one can touch Lee for their price point....my God 25$ for a bullet mold with handles that drops bullets at what they say vs my Lyman mold for 90$ which had to go back 2 times!

My offer still stands you got Lee stuff that you say sucks I will buy it from you for 20% of cost. If it's still useable
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Reloading Questions : Fed primers, coated bullets smoke
Replies
23
Views
876
mac1911
M
many questions
Replies
14
Views
955
Mike 53
Mike 53
Questions on dies
Replies
20
Views
1K
gerrycaruso
gerrycaruso
Powder questions; BE-86, and a TB replacement?
Replies
14
Views
1K
DarrenL
DarrenL
Any questions about our policy?
Replies
13
Views
563
Cphobes
Cphobes
Back
Top Bottom