CCW on 'your property' when renting...

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So, I currently have a restricted LTC-A (target and hunting), but i have an ALP 'on the way' from Arlington. In preparation for its arrival, I bought a Supertuck holster and have been wearing it around the house to break it (and my pants) in. Today, I took my dog outside to do his business, and I *almost* walked out the door with my gun on my hip! I took it off and put it back in the safe while letting my dog do his thing in the yard, but it got me thinking: can I walk around on my own property CCWing without a license? If so, how about if I'm the 1st-floor tenant in a house that's been converted to rental units? Do places such as 'the yard' count as 'my yard' on those terms? What about a common laundry area such as the basement?

--Lee
 
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wolf223

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i am NOT a lawyer.

if your on your property, you can do whatever the eF you want, as long as it's not illegal i.e light up a joint on your front porch, serve alcohol to minors or blast your music at 0300 in the morning....

IF it's concealed and you are on your property, who's gonna know?

-right?

*crickets*
 
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i am NOT a lawyer.

if your on your property, you can do whatever the eF you want, as long as it's not illegal i.e light up a joint on your front porch, serve alcohol to minors or blast your music at 0300 in the morning....

IF it's concealed and you are on your property, who's gonna know?

-right?

*crickets*
Point taken, and I think the issue would be more clear-cut if I *was* on my own property. As it is, I rent. I'm the bottom unit of a three-story house in a residential neighborhood. If I carry to let the dog do his business outside and SOMEHOW I print, or the wind lifts my shirt, or whatever, I *could* conceivably scare a neighbor.

Alternatively, since my place has a common laundry area, if I'm carrying when I go down to change a load of laundry and one of the other tenants happens to see me AND I happen to print, or accidentally reveal when bending over to pick up my clothes, or whatever, I could conceivably scare one of them.
 
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wolf223

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Point taken, and I think the issue would be more clear-cut if I *was* on my own property. As it is, I rent. I'm the bottom unit of a three-story house in a residential neighborhood. If I carry to let the dog do his business outside and SOMEHOW I print, or the wind lifts my shirt, or whatever, I *could* conceivably scare a neighbor.

Alternatively, since my place has a common laundry area, if I'm carrying when I go down to change a load of laundry and one of the other tenants happens to see me AND I happen to print, or accidentally reveal when bending over to pick up my clothes, or whatever, I could conceivably scare one of them.
the good thing is your ALP is en-route. right?

sounds like you need a good holster - maybe?

[wink]

[laugh] - i live in an Apt complex as well, but i have an ALP and i'm pretty sure ALL my neighbors know i have guns. those plastic cases and range bags are not that hard to scope out. whatever.

the propaganda from the NRA, the packages, the rifle cases ect....

na.... they don't know jack. outside of my mailman [shocked]
 
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the good thing is your ALP is en-route. right?

sounds like you need a good holster - maybe?

[wink]

[laugh] - i live in an Apt complex as well, but i have an ALP and i'm pretty sure ALL my neighbors know i have guns. those plastic cases and range bags are not that hard to scope out. whatever.

the propaganda from the NRA, the packages, the rifle cases ect....

na.... they don't know jack. outside of my mailman [shocked]
LOL, yea I don't want to know what my mailman thinks is going on inside my house - all those packages from companies that end in "Armory" and all those gun mags and NRA/GOAL mailings... And I've already gotten 2 packages from Surefire this month, and if you don't know they make flashlights, whats it sound like? [wink]
 
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Yes, my ALP is en route and this will soon be a non-issue. However, I was just curious and wanted to know just where the law stood, i.e. when renting, where does "your property" end, and "elsewhere" begin. Its an interesting legal question (to me anyway), especially when you start thinking "Well, if *I* own the yard, and my upstairs neighbor owns the yard equally (we rent from the same landlord), and we happen to get into an argument and he tells me to "GTFO off his property", which one of us has to go inside?"
 
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Also, regardless of whether I own the property or not, what happens if I start waving my pistol around on the lawn, doing one-handed cartwheels n' such? Is that a trip downtown for 'brandishing', even though its 'my property'? [smile]
 
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wolf223

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[rofl]

well again, i open carry inside my apt [smile]

i do NOT open carry in the hallways or any other "common" area. -just my pref.

i don't have a yard, but if I did, i'd probably clean dissasembled weapons out there, a piece or two at a time.

all joking aside, do what you feel is best or contact your issuing agency / firearms lawyer....

me? i prefer keep it hidden.
 
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wolf223

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Yes. You're going downtown for that.
says who? [wink]

seriously, sometimes i think "we" are little too too paranoid.

-if the wind blows, my shirt blows up and some meat gazer is "watching" me - that's thier fak'n problem. they can call the cops, do what they gotta do.

me, i'm going to carry on.... -that's just me as I know all my neighbors except one anti-social douche bag on the bottom floor.
 
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Chet, if your shirt blows up and they see a firearm, then no, I'd say no. But the OP asked about waving the gun around and doing cartwheels with gun in hand.
 

Realtor MA

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fyi When you lease real estate you have rights to that property. IANAL but it is your place of residence and in many respects you have the same rights as a homeowner. I suppose a landlord could prohibit you from carrying if they included that in the lease. Let's not give them any ideas.
Most leases have a clause entitled "quiet enjoyment" which allows you to live in the residence undisturbed and w/o disturbing others.
Maybe some of the attorneys will chime in.
 
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I'm worried less about the landlord, and more about my fellow tenants who also are renting in the building. I'm on the first floor, but there are two other tenants above me on the 2nd and 3rd floors. How do things stand in that case? If we all have 'equal property rights' in the common areas such as the lawn and the laundry room (obviously we would have sole property rights in the actual areas where we reside), whose rights 'win' if there is a disagreement in the common areas?
 

Titan

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I believe you 'rights' are intact if you carry under your LTC A discreetly.

Anything that attracts your neighbors attention will be bad, if they don't 'appreciate' your gun ownership.


Your landlord could potentially raise a beef as well, similar to a 'no pets' policy.


I wonder what experience others have had who rent with a neighbor who raises a ruckus over the mere presence of 'guns in the house'.

.
 

RKG

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Point taken, and I think the issue would be more clear-cut if I *was* on my own property. As it is, I rent. I'm the bottom unit of a three-story house in a residential neighborhood. If I carry to let the dog do his business outside and SOMEHOW I print, or the wind lifts my shirt, or whatever, I *could* conceivably scare a neighbor.

Alternatively, since my place has a common laundry area, if I'm carrying when I go down to change a load of laundry and one of the other tenants happens to see me AND I happen to print, or accidentally reveal when bending over to pick up my clothes, or whatever, I could conceivably scare one of them.
1) I believe the statutory term is "residence," not "property."

2) Under the prior version of the statute, I believe the SJC decided that the boundary of "residence" for a single family home was the property line, but for an apartment, was the walls of the apartment itself.
 

RKG

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I'm worried less about the landlord, and more about my fellow tenants who also are renting in the building. I'm on the first floor, but there are two other tenants above me on the 2nd and 3rd floors. How do things stand in that case? If we all have 'equal property rights' in the common areas such as the lawn and the laundry room (obviously we would have sole property rights in the actual areas where we reside), whose rights 'win' if there is a disagreement in the common areas?
A tenant has no "property rights" in the common areas.
 

Realtor MA

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A tenant has no "property rights" in the common areas.
That's an awfully broad statement. Parking? gardens? Right of passage? The rights may be in common with another tenant(s) but they do exist.
 

RKG

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That's an awfully broad statement. Parking? gardens? Right of passage? The rights may be in common with another tenant(s) but they do exist.
"Property rights" is a legal term that denotes a possessory interest. At most, a tenant has only a license in common areas, and a license is not considered to be a "property right."
 

Realtor MA

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"Property rights" is a legal term that denotes a possessory interest. At most, a tenant has only a license in common areas, and a license is not considered to be a "property right."
Tenancy is not a license. Tenancy conveys rights. Have you ever tried to evict a tenant? Licenses are revocable. A ticket to a sporting event is a license.
 

RKG

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Tenancy is not a license. Tenancy conveys rights. Have you ever tried to evict a tenant? Licenses are revocable. A ticket to a sporting event is a license.
1) Yes, I've evicted (to be precise, brought eviction actions against) flocks of tenants.

2) It is true that "[t]enancy is not a license." However, the common areas are not part of the demise in a tenancy, and, therefore, the tenant does not have a "tenancy" in the common areas.

3) It is true that "[l]icenses are revocable." However, a contract not to revoke a license is enforceable.

4) It is (largely) true that "[a] ticket to a sporting event is a license." However, since a lot of other things are also licenses, I'm not sure I see the import of this declaration. I believe the rights of a tenant in and to the common areas are limited to those of a licensee.
 

Realtor MA

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1) Yes, I've evicted (to be precise, brought eviction actions against) flocks of tenants.

2) It is true that "[t]enancy is not a license." However, the common areas are not part of the demise in a tenancy, and, therefore, the tenant does not have a "tenancy" in the common areas.

3) It is true that "[l]icenses are revocable." However, a contract not to revoke a license is enforceable.

4) It is (largely) true that "[a] ticket to a sporting event is a license." However, since a lot of other things are also licenses, I'm not sure I see the import of this declaration. I believe the rights of a tenant in and to the common areas are limited to those of a licensee.
The creation of a tenancy grants rights to the tenant. Included in those rights would be the use of common areas, in common with, other tenants. To suggest that a lessee has rights in his apartment and none in the common areas makes no sense. Are you suggesting that the tenant has no right, only a license, to walk across common areas into and out of his/her apartment?
 

Another_David

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Read the lease--plain and simple.

The BHA ones I have used don't give the tenants any "rights" to the property outside their apartment other than designating parking spaces or garages in the Attachments.

In practice most landlords don't have any use for the lot outside the structure so they let you do as you wish on it--within reason of course. The term "peaceable enjoyment" is often used. As long as you're not bothering anyone then have at it.

Likewise in Mass if you disturb the peace by displaying a firearm in public then your subject to the licensing authority questioning your suitability.
 

Another_David

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The creation of a tenancy grants rights to the tenant. Included in those rights would be the use of common areas, in common with, other tenants. To suggest that a lessee has rights in his apartment and none in the common areas makes no sense. Are you suggesting that the tenant has no right, only a license, to walk across common areas into and out of his/her apartment?
I think you're getting hung up on the term "rights". I think most courts would agree there's an implied right to access when someone rents an apartment. Otherwise, you got nada unless it's expressly written in the lease. It doesn't mean you can't play wiffleball in the backyard but if the landlord says, "hey, get off my grass" then you'd have to respect the owner's demand. In fact the BHA lease specifically states you can not store objects in the common areas like carriages and bicycles. That's really to protect the landlord from fire code violations btw.
 
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ASHDUMP

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So can you open carry outside of your single family house within your property? Even if your neighbors are 10' away? Just looking for a yes/no answer (is that possible?).
 

Another_David

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So can you open carry outside of your single family house within your property? Even if your neighbors are 10' away? Just looking for a yes/no answer (is that possible?).
No. You'll scare the sheep and when the shepard has to come out and calm them down you'll be deemed in the wrong.
 

Realtor MA

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I think you're getting hung up on the term "rights". I think most courts would agree there's an implied right to access when someone rents an apartment. Otherwise, you got nada unless it's expressly written in the lease. It doesn't mean you can't play wiffleball in the backyard but if the landlord says, "hey, get off my grass" then you'd have to respect the owner's demand. In fact the BHA lease specifically states you can not store objects in the common areas like carriages and bicycles. That's really to protect the landlord from fire code violations btw.
The BHA lease addresses the common areas because you DO have implied rights in those areas. The clause in the lease is defining those rights more clearly.
 

RKG

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So can you open carry outside of your single family house within your property? Even if your neighbors are 10' away? Just looking for a yes/no answer (is that possible?).
Yes.

Qualifications:

1) This thread was not about open vs. concealed carry; it was about carrying by a person in the absence of, or beyond the restrictions on, his LTC.

2) That issue implicates G. L. (2006 ed.) ch. 269, sec. 10, which, among other things, criminalizes the carrrying of a "firearrm" (handgun) without a LTC, and which contains an exception for "carrying" "in or on" one's "residence."

3) That issue, in turn, raises the issue of the boundaries of one's "residence." Interpreting a similar (but not identical) exception in the pre-Ch. 358 version of section 10, I believe the SJC defined the boundary to be as previously stated, to wit: property line in the case of a single family residence and apartment walls in the case of a tenement.

4) Your question uses the verb "can," which could refer to one's legal rights and duties or could refer to collateral implications of doing something not explicitly precluded by statute.

5) Massachusetts statutes do not distinguish between concealed carrying and open carrying. Either without a sufficient license is a crime; neither with a sufficient license is a crime. However, at least anecdotally, some issuing authorities believe that openly carrrying is a talisman of lack of "suitability," which can lead to license revocation. I frankly don't think that would stand up under SJC review, but that is just one man's prediction.

6) Lots of questions can be answered with a simple "Yes" or "No," but most of the time (at least in the legal world), such answers will be incomplete and, therefore, misleading.
 

Realtor MA

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Yes.

Qualifications:

1) This thread was not about open vs. concealed carry; it was about carrying by a person in the absence of, or beyond the restrictions on, his LTC.

2) That issue implicates G. L. (2006 ed.) ch. 269, sec. 10, which, among other things, criminalizes the carrrying of a "firearrm" (handgun) without a LTC, and which contains an exception for "carrying" "in or on" one's "residence."

3) That issue, in turn, raises the issue of the boundaries of one's "residence." Interpreting a similar (but not identical) exception in the pre-Ch. 358 version of section 10, I believe the SJC defined the boundary to be as previously stated, to wit: property line in the case of a single family residence and apartment walls in the case of a tenement.

4) Your question uses the verb "can," which could refer to one's legal rights and duties or could refer to collateral implications of doing something not explicitly precluded by statute.

5) Massachusetts statutes do not distinguish between concealed carrying and open carrying. Either without a sufficient license is a crime; neither with a sufficient license is a crime. However, at least anecdotally, some issuing authorities believe that openly carrrying is a talisman of lack of "suitability," which can lead to license revocation. I frankly don't think that would stand up under SJC review, but that is just one man's prediction.

6) Lots of questions can be answered with a simple "Yes" or "No," but most of the time (at least in the legal world), such answers will be incomplete and, therefore, misleading.
Excellent info!!
 
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