Carry someone else's gun as non-resident

[s8200]

Can a non-NH resident (with non-resident permit) carry someone else's (an NH resident) gun?

 

[drgrant]

Nothing in NH state law prohibits it but others may opine it violates the "sporting purposes" provision of fed law WRT borrowing guns, but IMO that's not even worth worrying about, I've never even seen or heard of federal case law based on that definition.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Fed Law ONLY allows loaning a handgun across state lines for SPORTING purposes, not CCW. I suspect this might apply here.

 

[s8200]

Hmm OK.

What if the gun used to belong to the now non-resident when the owner lived in NH? But it was never taken out of state when the owner moved for whatever reason (left at the previous residence, parents' house, whatever). Would it still technically be a 'loan'?

 

[drgrant]

Fed Law ONLY allows loaning a handgun across state lines for SPORTING purposes, not CCW. I suspect this might apply here.

It would be pretty funny trying to see the feds prosecute this, though.

Juror going to be thinking: "So, you're telling us, if he brought his own gun with him, instead of borrowing one, defending himself with that gun woudn't be illegal, but it's illegal because he borrowed someone elses? WAT? "

I doubt it would pass muster with any jury and having a halfway decent lawyer, but we all know that if feds like to go full retard it doesn't matter, you still lose (thousands of dollars) even if you win. There might be an interesting vector here WRT 2A federal case law though.... fun possibility of that clause being legally invalidated.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Hmm OK.

What if the gun used to belong to the now non-resident when the owner lived in NH? But it was never taken out of state when the owner moved for whatever reason (left at the previous residence, parents' house, whatever). Would it still technically be a 'loan'?

Lol if you're just going to try to stretch things that much then you're better off just pretending this law didn't exist, because it's functionally the same thing. "This law doesn't count cauze I used to own this gun" sounds like a pile of crap to me. Then again this sporting purposes thing is a pile of crap, too. Would be interesting to find ANY case law on the issue where this came up in a self defense case of some sort or another. There's probably been opportunities but my guess is states just never referred these to the feds or even if they did, feds just ignored them because they knew how dirty this issue would be, legally.

I expect one of these cases to come up in Federal court right after the next "922R against a non-FFL/manufacturer" case....

This gonna happen first, though...




-Mike

 

[s8200]

OK. Sorry if I appeared to be purposefully confusing. I wasn't. Just an honest scenario.

Lol, I just wanted to add, I know questions like this appear to try to learn how to skirt the law... but it's actually to comply with it!

 

[drgrant]

OK. Sorry if I appeared to be purposefully confusing. I wasn't. Just an honest scenario.

Lol, I just wanted to add, I know questions like this appear to try to learn how to skirt the law... but it's actually to comply with it!

The 110% risk averse types would bring their own gun, that's the short answer. I'm not one of those people but for other reasons I'd rather just bring my own gun than borrow someone else's.

-Mike

 

[s8200]

What about (once crossing into NH), remove your 10rd mag and put in a (post-ban) 15rd?

 

[drgrant]

What about (once crossing into NH), remove your 10rd mag and put in a (post-ban) 15rd?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, but what did you do, have someone hand it to you when you drove over the border?

-Mike

 

[s8200]

That, or bought one, picked one up at a friend's house, who knows.

 

[AHM]

Inquiring Minds Want to Know Dept.

Can a non-NH resident (with non-resident permit) carry someone else's (an NH resident) gun?

One can think of at least five basic questions about where and how the gun would be carried, but first...

What if the gun used to belong to the now non-resident when the owner lived in NH? But it was never taken out of state when the owner moved for whatever reason (left at the previous residence, parents' house, whatever). Would it still technically be a 'loan'?

...why is it no longer the former NH resident's gun? They once owned it, but how did they transfer its title to someone else? Sold it? Misplaced it? Lost it?

 

[s8200]

...why is it no longer the former NH resident's gun? They once owned it, but how did they transfer its title to someone else? Sold it? Misplaced it? Lost it?

Just left it, say a relative's house. No need to transfer. I didn't really want to get tangled up in this part of it.

 

[MachineHead]

Oh, the overflowing vagueness! I'm sure at least one person so far is having a very difficult time believing this.

 

[drgrant]

Oh, the overflowing vagueness! I'm sure at least one person so far is having a very difficult time believing this.

Yes any layperson reading federal law would have a hard time comprehending how ****ing dumb it is, and what the purpose of any of it is. It's mind numbing insanity.

-Mike

 

[warwickben]

I wouldnt carry some ones gun. If I used it I would feel bad about the police locking it up. I got friends but not friends I want to owe a gun to while defending my self in court .

 

[AHM]

Just left it, say a relative's house. No need to transfer. I didn't really want to get tangled up in this part of it.

• Did you tell the, say a relative, you were giving them the gun?
• Did the, say a relative, tell you they accepted the gift?
• Were you still a NH resident while this was going on, or did you only mention it after moving?

Sounds picayune?

But if you never really gave away the gun, it may still be yours.

On the other hand, if someone ever does something naughty with the gun,
you may suddenly be very motivated to prove you're not the owner.


On the other other hand, does NH law say that a PRL only licenses one to concealed carry guns one personally owns?

 

[s8200]

On the other other hand, does NH law say that a PRL only licenses one to concealed carry guns one personally owns?

This is really what I was curious about. But as stated before, I guess it goes against the feds.

 

[browncoat]

If the gun doesn't cross state lines, i don't see how federal loaning law applies.

Edit: I see in the wording on the ATF site why they would consider that to be a loan which is covered, but I don't understand how that is a transaction that is constitutionally under the jurisdiction of the feds

 

[AHM]

One can think of at least five basic questions about where and how the gun would be carried, ...

OK, fun's fun, but I don't think you're going to get consistent advice unless you clear some things up. You want to carry a NH resident's gun on a NH non-res PRL, but:

1. Carry it in NH, or out of state?
2. Carry it in town, in a vehicle, in a bar, or afield?
3. Carry it openly, or concealed?
4. Carry it loaded, or unloaded?
5. Carry it in the company of the NH resident, or away from them?

Maybe some of those questions even don't matter. But if you don't clearly explain what you are wondering about, then people are going to use their imagination in answering. And they may not even specify what question they think they're answering, so you could be looking at answers that are absolutely true yet complete irrelevant.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Juror going to be thinking: "So, you're telling us, if he brought his own gun with him, instead of borrowing one, defending himself with that gun woudn't be illegal, but it's illegal because he borrowed someone elses? WAT? "

The judge would explain to the jury that it's job is to determine facts, not judge the law. The judge would explain "Your job is to determine if the defendant borrowed the gun while not in his home state, and did so for something other than a sporting purpose. If you determine that he did in fact borrow the gun, and it was not for a sporting purpose, you must find him guilty".

Then, you would be betting on at least 1/12 understanding jury nullification and having the fortitute to invoke it.

 

[olegZHA]

Yes any layperson reading federal law would have a hard time comprehending how ****ing dumb it is, and what the purpose of any of it is. It's mind numbing insanity.

-Mike

Feel like I lose IQ points when I try to understand some of this stuff...it's like it's written in such a way that those writing it wrote it just to validate their jobs and existence within the bureaucracy.
Zero Hour Arms

 

[knfmn]

Feel like I lose IQ points when I try to understand some of this stuff...it's like it's written in such a way that those writing it wrote it just to validate their jobs and existence within the bureaucracy.
Zero Hour Arms

Why, yes, yes it is. You figured it out...lol.

 

[s8200]

The judge would explain to the jury that it's job is to determine facts, not judge the law. The judge would explain "Your job is to determine if the defendant borrowed the gun while not in his home state, and did so for something other than a sporting purpose. If you determine that he did in fact borrow the gun, and it was not for a sporting purpose, you must find him guilty".

Then, you would be betting on at least 1/12 understanding jury nullification and having the fortitute to invoke it.

I think I solved the problem. The gun is a 15rd gun, and no sub-15rd mags exist for it, and no pre-94 mags exist either. I usually leave it in NH cause there was/is no point to having it in MA since there are no legal mags for it, so in reality, it's only useful not in MA. However, if I was to go on a trip (out of MA), I could just carry the empty gun in MA, then once I cross, pick up my 15rd mag (at relatives' house in NH) and throw it in. Or am I wrong?

 

[Racenet]

I think I solved the problem. The gun is a 15rd gun, and no sub-15rd mags exist for it, and no pre-94 mags exist either. I usually leave it in NH cause there was/is no point to having it in MA since there are no legal mags for it, so in reality, it's only useful not in MA. However, if I was to go on a trip (out of MA), I could just carry the empty gun in MA, then once I cross, pick up my 15rd mag (at relatives' house in NH) and throw it in. Or am I wrong?

For Christ sake man, please just stay on your side of the state line. We do not need your kind of $hit up here.

 

[s8200]

OK excellent.

Can't you just say "yeah that sounds good".

Anyways I've been searching and searching and can't find anything prohibiting that scenario.

 

[MachineHead]

I think I solved the problem. The gun is a 15rd gun, and no sub-15rd mags exist for it, and no pre-94 mags exist either. I usually leave it in NH cause there was/is no point to having it in MA since there are no legal mags for it, so in reality, it's only useful not in MA. However, if I was to go on a trip (out of MA), I could just carry the empty gun in MA, then once I cross, pick up my 15rd mag (at relatives' house in NH) and throw it in. Or am I wrong?

Just get a "replica" gun and save yourself the headache since you can't use the real one in MA. What's the purpose of carrying an empty gun? You might as well just hand-throw bullets at a bad guy.

 

[AHM]

Lol, I just wanted to add, I know questions like this appear to try to learn how to skirt the law... but it's actually to comply with it!

Is that you, Hillary?

For Christ sake man, please just stay on your side of the state line. We do not need your kind of $hit up here. ...

OK excellent.

Can't you just say "yeah that sounds good".

Oh, stewardess! I speak NES. Racenet meant to say:

OP's goin' to jail!
​

(Just kidding).

Anyways I've been searching and searching and can't find anything prohibiting that scenario.

Mull over this law:

18 U.S.C. §922(a)(5): It shall be unlawful for say a relative to deliver any firearm to you who does not reside in New Hampshire; except that this shall not apply to the loan of a firearm to you for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

On the other hand, if you had merely stored it in NH, and never told say a relative that you were giving it to them (or say a relative never agreed to receive it as a gift), then maybe you still own it, and the above doesn't apply. I can't guarantee that you still own it - go ask a lawyer.


If you do own it in NH, I don't understand whether there's some other angle keeping you from filing an eFA-10 on it within 7 days of bringing it into MA.

 

[s8200]

Mull over this law:



On the other hand, if you had merely stored it in NH, and never told say a relative that you were giving it to them (or say a relative never agreed to receive it as a gift), then maybe you still own it, and the above doesn't apply. I can't guarantee that you still own it - go ask a lawyer.


If you do own it in NH, I don't understand whether there's some other angle keeping you from filing an eFA-10 on it within 7 days of bringing it into MA.

OK fine. What if when I moved to MA, I brought this gun in with me (with my other MA-legal guns), minus the magazine. Say I did this for the sole purpose of using it in NH when I travel there. Magazine always stays in NH.

 

[drgrant]

mind numbing overthinking... -facepalm-