Caliber suggestions?

[terraformer]

Thanks Jose. The Savage looks like a good choice.
Just for my education, does the 1 in 7 barrel really make a difference over the 1 in 9 barrel?

Yes, it does if you care about precision accuracy. Also make sure you check out remington and winchester. Especially remington 700 with the bull barrel or the VTR.

 

[Skald]

I have an irrational hate for the .243 Winchester.
As a hunting round, it is too much for coyote and not comfortably large enough for deer. Perfect for antelope, I suppose, but I don't own a dedicate elephant rifle, either.
For a pure target rifle, .243 accuracy can be great and 6mm bullets really fly well at distances, but the barrel is gone after 1200 rds or so.

Damn, I had great luck with .243 for deer. Where I was hunting it was THE most popular hunting caliber. Took a 130lb field dressed doe @ 100yds, just dropped it.

Mind you the area I was hunting is Michigan Upper Peninsula and MANY company's close for the 2 week deer rile season (many profs. cancelled opening day because they were either 1) in the field themselves or 2) to many of the students are in the field).

Like any round need to find the proper weight for what your doing.

 

[PatMcD]

Damn, I had great luck with .243 for deer. Where I was hunting it was THE most popular hunting caliber. Took a 130lb field dressed doe @ 100yds, just dropped it.

I told you it was an irrational hatred.

 

[PatMcD]

Yes, it does if you care about precision accuracy. Also make sure you check out remington and winchester. Especially remington 700 with the bull barrel or the VTR.

Just to clarify: the twist rate doesn't make the rifle more accurate. The twist rate allows the barrel to shoot a certain weight bullet accurately. A tighter twist barrel (1-8 or 1-7) will shoot a heavier bullet accurately. A heavier bullet is more accurate at long distances because they hold better in the wind.

 

[oneswithfunes]

but the barrel is gone after 1200 rds or so.

What are you shooting? 55 grain bullets? Mine has well over that and is still a laser.

 

[Skald]

I told you it was an irrational hatred.

Need to try and break ya of it . I did move up to the .270 Win after shooting my friends.

After seeing him bitch and moan at a 400yd shot and missing where he aimed by a few centimeters. Pre-64 Model 70 Winchester with handloads. Me and friends vowed NEVER to piss off Jimmy when he had that rifle in his hands as we witnessed the shot.

And for clarification, my friend Jimmy hunted to put food on the table so his family wouldn't starve throughout the year. As the rumor went in the area, he knew how to shoot before he knew how to walk.

 

[bpm990d]

What are you shooting? 55 grain bullets? Mine has well over that and is still a laser.

100+ grain bullets for long range shooting tend to wear the throats out of the .243.

B

 

[terraformer]

I like my .270 but it is a hunting barrel and it walks with the heat. Makes it a pain in the ass to shoot with.

 

[Jose]

For a pure target rifle, .243 accuracy can be great and 6mm bullets really fly well at distances, but the barrel is gone after 1200 rds or so.

Use H1000 and keep the carbon off the throat and you can make 3000 easy.

Use H4350 and yep, you will toast the throat in no time flat.

Flame temp and burning rate (lower and slower is better) are the differences.

 

[Jose]

Also make sure you check out remington and winchester. Especially remington 700 with the bull barrel or the VTR.

Neither of which comes with rifling faster than 1/9.

There is something to clear up about bullet stability.

Most highpower shooters swear by the rule that you need 1/8 or faster to stabilize bullets heavier than 70 grains. That is true to a point, and such a rule is based on the fact that AR-15s meant for service rifle competition are limited to 20 inch barrels. Other NRA competition disciplines (match rifle, target rifle) do not have such length limits.

How does barrel length matter? It matters because barrel length affects the ultimate muzzle velocity that you can achieve. Longer barrels (24, 26, 30 inches) give slower burning powders necessary for heavy bullets more time to burn completely thus generating a higher pressure before the muzzle, thus giving you a higher muzzle velocity.

A bullet's rotational velocity is what generates its gyroscopic stability in flight. Rotational velocity is is the product of linear velocity (how fast the bullet travels down the bore) and rotational acceleration (controlled in part by the rifling rate of twist).

So you can achieve sufficient rotational velocity to stabilize heavy (75 grains or more) .224" bullets even if your rifle's rate of twist is as slow as 1 turn in 9 inches if you get the muzzle velocity above 2900 fps. That can be done with barrels 26 inches or longer as found on most target/varmint rifles, be they bolts or semi autos.

This is not all theory. I had a Winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint in 223 Remington with a 1/9 barrel that easily stabilized my handloads (75 grain Hornady AMAX over 24.7 grains of Reloder 15 powder).

 

[oneswithfunes]

100+ grain bullets for long range shooting tend to wear the throats out of the .243.

B

I shoot 115's in my .243 and have 1671 rounds down her. Still shoots very well. Velocity and pressure are the killers not bullet weight. Hence my question about 55 grain bullets at 4000+

 

[MassMark]

I have to add my support for a Savage rifle. They are the "AR-15" of bolt guns. KMM696 took a stock Savage rifle and built it into a stellar target rifle. You can buy a Savage for as little as $399.00 and build from there...Go .308 - God told me to let you know it's okay...

 

[Jose]

No need to buy a basic Savage and spend time and money building it up when Savage makes pure-bred target rifles for disciplines that allow scopes and bipods and for those that require the use of slings and aperture sights.

For their support of real rifle marksmanship sports (i.e. not benchrest) Savage deserves a huge deal of support by riflemen. Something that cannot be said for neither Ruger, nor Winchester Repeating Arms, nor Remington, not S&W/Thompson-Center, nor Kimber, nor any other American rifle maker.

 

[bpm990d]

I shoot 115's in my .243 and have 1671 rounds down her. Still shoots very well. Velocity and pressure are the killers not bullet weight. Hence my question about 55 grain bullets at 4000+

My response was not as accurate as it could have been. You are correct, the bullet weight is irrelevant and not what wears barrels out (it's really the heat and pressure). My bias is towards High Power and we tend to run 22 shot strings with heavy bullets and slow powders. The slower powders are to get better velocities with larger projectiles in the long barrels we shoot. They go together like peanut butter and jelly. That combination (along with sustained string of 22+ shots in about 10~15 minutes) puts a lot of heat into the barrel and generates a time pressure curve that is very unkind to the throat.

However not everyone does that. As an example, I've read reports that Army M24s were getting upwards of 10,000 rounds out of some barrels before accuracy really suffered. I would never get that kind of life out of one of my .308s. I tend to shoot slower powders and longer strings that really heat the barrel up where as the military is using medium weight bullets and medium burn rate powders and not heating them up like I do. What Jose said is correct. There is a guy in Ohio that is using his own cartridge called the 6mm CM that is very much like a .243 Winchester. He is using H1000 with very good barrel life.

Barrel erosion is a fairly complicated thing. There is actually a very good report by the Australian Government's DoD Science and Technology Division, that is hosted on Dan Lilja's site. Understanding and Predicting Gun Barrel Erosion. It's interesting if you read past the chemistry formulas and math.

B

 

[oneswithfunes]

My response was not as accurate as it could have been. You are correct, the bullet weight is irrelevant and not what wears barrels out (it's really the heat and pressure). My bias is towards High Power and we tend to run 22 shot strings with heavy bullets and slow powders. The slower powders are to get better velocities with larger projectiles in the long barrels we shoot. They go together like peanut butter and jelly. That combination (along with sustained string of 22+ shots in about 10~15 minutes) puts a lot of heat into the barrel and generates a time pressure curve that is very unkind to the throat.

However not everyone does that. As an example, I've read reports that Army M24s were getting upwards of 10,000 rounds out of some barrels before accuracy really suffered. I would never get that kind of life out of one of my .308s. I tend to shoot slower powders and longer strings that really heat the barrel up where as the military is using medium weight bullets and medium burn rate powders and not heating them up like I do. What Jose said is correct. There is a guy in Ohio that is using his own cartridge called the 6mm CM that is very much like a .243 Winchester. He is using H1000 with very good barrel life.

Barrel erosion is a fairly complicated thing. There is actually a very good report by the Australian Government's DoD Science and Technology Division, that is hosted on Dan Lilja's site. Understanding and Predicting Gun Barrel Erosion. It's interesting if you read past the chemistry formulas and math.

B

Thanks for the response. Sounds much better to me. I just read 1200 rounds and thought What the heck is that gun shooting? Now this has got me thinking have my groups gotten bigger over the last year? When I get home I am going to check my book to see.

As far as Savage I think Larry Racine shoots them? I also think I read recently that some Savage team won some comp someplace with stock Savage rifles?

 

[bpm990d]

So you can achieve sufficient rotational velocity to stabilize heavy (75 grains or more) .224" bullets even if your rifle's rate of twist is as slow as 1 turn in 9 inches if you get the muzzle velocity above 2900 fps. That can be done with barrels 26 inches or longer as found on most target/varmint rifles, be they bolts or semi autos.

This is not all theory. I had a Winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint in 223 Remington with a 1/9 barrel that easily stabilized my handloads (75 grain Hornady AMAX over 24.7 grains of Reloder 15 powder).

I remember reading reports of Savage 9 twist barrels in .223 shooting the 80gr Sierras. It makes perfect sense, since Miller has a velocity correction in his stability formula.

B

 

[bpm990d]

As far as Savage I think Larry Racine shoots them? I also think I read recently that some Savage team won some comp someplace with stock Savage rifles?

Larry uses the actions. He puts custom aftermarket barrels on his. Last time I talked to him I think he had a Krieger on his Palma rifle.

I believe that the F-Class Nationals were won with a factory Savage rifle.

B

 

[KMM696]

No need to buy a basic Savage and spend time and money building it up when Savage makes pure-bred target rifles for disciplines that allow scopes and bipods and for those that require the use of slings and aperture sights.

For their support of real rifle marksmanship sports (i.e. not benchrest) Savage deserves a huge deal of support by riflemen. Something that cannot be said for neither Ruger, nor Winchester Repeating Arms, nor Remington, not S&W/Thompson-Center, nor Kimber, nor any other American rifle maker.

Well.....unless you're a lefty. Then you have to fill in the gaps in Savage's catalog on your own. Not that it's difficult - the Savage 10/110 rifles are incredibly easy to work on. Good aftermarket support, and for most of the typical rifle jobs, no gunsmith involvement required.

I do appreciate how much Savage supports lefties, though. I don't think there's another company out there that can say they offer a left-hand rimfire, a short or long action centerfire, all in either stainless or blued. Their custom shop is another excellent source for combinations that Savage either discontinued or has never made. I'm just not willing to get on a waiting list for stock and barrel work I can do myself. Of course, they are still willing to make a 10FLCM Scout for me, which is terribly tempting. Not that I need another Savage, but wanting another is entirely different, right?


www.Savageshooters.com

 

[oneswithfunes]

Larry uses the actions. He puts custom aftermarket barrels on his. Last time I talked to him I think he had a Krieger on his Palma rifle.

I believe that the F-Class Nationals were won with a factory Savage rifle.

B

There are other barrels besides Hart? I never knew.

 

[PatMcD]

oneswithfunes:
I'm sure that a .243 might shoot 100yd groups very well even after maybe 2000 rds. I was talking about (although I failed to state it in my post) accuracy at distance (300 to 600 yds). That is where I think you are going to see fliers after 1200 rds or so.
I don't own a .243 and never will (remember my irrational hatred), but if I did, I would try H1000 powder as Jose has suggested.

As to it's effectiveness on deer:
Yes, it will kill deer. So will a .22LR. The shot must be a damn good one though, and in a perfect world, every hunter could make that shot. I think average Joe is better equipped with calibers starting with .25.

 

[Jose]

Another killer bolt gun caliber option if you don't reload and stay inside of 600 yards is the 6 mm Benchrest. Lapua and Norma make killer ammo for it (though at those prices you WILL be setting up a reloading bench stat...) and of course handloads truly make it shine.

 

[oneswithfunes]

oneswithfunes:
I'm sure that a .243 might shoot 100yd groups very well even after maybe 2000 rds. I was talking about (although I failed to state it in my post) accuracy at distance (300 to 600 yds). That is where I think you are going to see fliers after 1200 rds or so.
I don't own a .243 and never will (remember my irrational hatred), but if I did, I would try H1000 powder as Jose has suggested.

As to it's effectiveness on deer:
Yes, it will kill deer. So will a .22LR. The shot must be a damn good one though, and in a perfect world, every hunter could make that shot. I think average Joe is better equipped with calibers starting with .25.

We might be talking about different levels of accuracy. My data seems to indicate the my group size has increased to 3/4 or 7/8 moa from under 1/2 moa. I have not punched paper with it in quite some time so I can not be positive on exact size. I can be positive that I can regularly hit my small steel (12") with no wind well past 600 yards.

 

[PatMcD]

Here ya go! Just got this literally 10 seconds ago from Creedmore:
Tubb 2000 chambered in 6XC:

Greetings!
We just received this and thought you'd be interested. Give us a call as soon as you can because deals like this don't come along often!




Used (but barely broken in) in beautiful near-new condition, dark blue T2K (serial # 0517). Initially delivered in June of 2006. Package deal includes:

· T2K Rifle, chambered in 6XC with approx. 150 rds though barrel.
· Additional bbl chambered in .308 with roughly 80 rds fired.
· Two additional magazines (4 total)
· T2k front sight with Gehmann adjustable front iris (2.4-4.4 mm)
· Leupold Mark IV 8.5x25 50 mm scope
· Badger steel scope mounts
· Tubb rifle case
· Barrel wrench
· Barrel vise
· 6XC die set
· Superior Shooting System bloop tube

Purchased separately this package would cost over $7,600, and you'd wait 2-4 months for delivery.

This rifle will be offered to all customers on Monday, November 2, but is available to internet buyers club members this weekend. Call Now! 800-273-3366.

$6,000

ONLY ONE AVAILABLE

Your Customer Service Staff
Creedmoor Sports, Inc.
800-273-3366

 

[oneswithfunes]

Another killer bolt gun caliber option if you don't reload and stay inside of 600 yards is the 6 mm Benchrest. Lapua and Norma make killer ammo for it (though at those prices you WILL be setting up a reloading bench stat...) and of course handloads truly make it shine.

6mm br and Laupa brass are ouch to my wallet I have however always been intrigued with it.

 

[Jose]

Here ya go! Just got this literally 10 seconds ago from Creedmore:
Tubb 2000 chambered in 6XC:

Greetings!
We just received this and thought you'd be interested. Give us a call as soon as you can because deals like this don't come along often!




Used (but barely broken in) in beautiful near-new condition, dark blue T2K (serial # 0517). Initially delivered in June of 2006. Package deal includes:

· T2K Rifle, chambered in 6XC with approx. 150 rds though barrel.
· Additional bbl chambered in .308 with roughly 80 rds fired.
· Two additional magazines (4 total)
· T2k front sight with Gehmann adjustable front iris (2.4-4.4 mm)
· Leupold Mark IV 8.5x25 50 mm scope
· Badger steel scope mounts
· Tubb rifle case
· Barrel wrench
· Barrel vise
· 6XC die set
· Superior Shooting System bloop tube

Purchased separately this package would cost over $7,600, and you'd wait 2-4 months for delivery.

This rifle will be offered to all customers on Monday, November 2, but is available to internet buyers club members this weekend. Call Now! 800-273-3366.

$6,000

ONLY ONE AVAILABLE

Your Customer Service Staff
Creedmoor Sports, Inc.
800-273-3366

TUBB2000s are a ripoff.

Build a freaking tube gun from Gary Eliseo for about 1/3 of that "sale" price.

 

[Jose]

6mm br and Laupa brass are ouch to my wallet I have however always been intrigued with it.

All my 308 match ammo and all my 6.5x55 hunting ammo is built with Lapua brass.

 

[WILDCATT]

rifle

I was just into wal mart a savage 110 with scope for $359 black plastic stock.
and the 110 is a change barrel gun a do it your self project.I would get one in 308,as you could chang it to 243 in minutes.

 

[PatMcD]

All my 308 match ammo and all my 6.5x55 hunting ammo is built with Lapua brass.

But it has those four magic letters attached to it: T-U-B-B

It must be worth the asking price.

 

[terraformer]

OK, I got to shoot a savage (110?) tonight. The bolt still sounds like there is sand in there and the action makes it feel like the AK of bolt actions (very loose tolerances in the action), but I have to admit, with the right aftermarket stock, decent glass and a decent trigger (accu trigger???) it was a little laser and this was with 55 grain. I can see the draw to it.

I still prefer the remington 700 over the savage but I am not as anti savage as I was if you get the requisite extras. Bone stock and you can keep it.

 

[MassMark]

Jose makes good points in both Savage's support of the shooting sports and their offerings for shooters of all levels. Looking at the Savage catalog is like looking at definitive value in firearms. We sell a base line 111, for $399.00 with a scope, (Bushnell basic). Add decent glass and you have a stellar rifle at a great price. I have not seen the grittiness in their bolt actions - even on their lower end.

Savage also supports youth shooting programs and offers single shot dedicated target rifles at a superb price - discounted even further for youth rifle programs. Other companies offer cheesy "youth rifles" - even in pink. They are a product of marketing, rather than a dedication to youth shooting sports...

Frankly, I'm through with anything Remington. I have noticed some drop in quality since being swallowed up by Cerberus.... For example, take a look at the 770 sometime and see what I mean...