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Building an AR 10 / scout rifle duo
- Thread starter Fritz the Cat
- Start date
Nope. I was mistaken. It's American. I have a German dubbed version
Ich spreche Deutsche
Nope. I was mistaken. It's American. I have a German dubbed version
Ich spreche Deutsche
More of the one shot one kill deer metaphor.
Why do I need 2 rifles? Why do I need 108 rifles and pistols?
It is more that I have become interested in the AR platform recently. And the 5.56 just seems a bit, mmm, diminutive.
I was considering this project as a father / son thing to do over the winter with plans to go slay some hogs down south next year.
Or zombies.
Addendum: shots fired, started when I was 5 years old and I'm 48 now. I shoot silhouette matches twice a month practice for said matches twice a week or so as my work/family schedule allow. Two or three rounds of trap once a week, 100 rounds of 45acp about once a month just to make sure the Colt Commander doesn't get rusty.
And luckily I haven't killed any people yet. Not that there is a shortage of perspectives on my list. But they'll get stabbed. I don't want to give guns a bad name.
Honestly, if was building an ar 10 (which may or may not happen. Oh, who am I kidding...), I'd consider a build in 6.5 Kardashian (Creedmoore), that round is intriguing in the ballistics department, and the barrels are readily available. As far as the mag sharing goes, I don't see that happening in .308 and related cartridges. In 233. You'd have the Mossberg MVP that could share mags with your AR15, and I'm sure there are more bolt guns that use them, but in 308? Not to my knowledge. You would have to modify the AR to take AICS style mags, or the bolt gun to accept SR25 or DPMS mags. I don't know how handy you are, but that sounds like a major engineering project to me.
It is beginning to dawn on me that the mag thing is going to be problematic. Pretty much every gun manufacturer has a bolt gun with a DM in their catalogue. Somehow I thought that compatibility would be easier.
I do have access to a Bridgeport and I can use it to limited success. Certainly not to Pratt & Whitney standards but likely enough to hold a tin box in a well.
If this becomes too frustrating then it's on to plan B. An 80% lower for all 4 members of the family.
Great articles. Thanks for the links. The side by sibe comparisons are very useful.
The BC on the 6.5 boolit is very good. I have a Swede Mauser that still shoots MOA at 100 yards. With the iron sights. From a gun over 100 yrs old. Granted they are my handloads.
Almost bought a savage predator in 260 last year. My LGS had it in the rack just to taunt me. "Self" I said "Do you really need another gun?"
The G3 mags are a good choice.
I haven't checked lately - but they used to be dirt cheap and available by the dozens.
Another side benefit for MA people - is that a lot of the G3 mags come with the manufacture date stamped right on them. So you can conclusively prove that they're pre ban (not so easy to prove with most AR mags)
G3 mags in new condition:
HK91, G3, Magazine, Mag, Pouch, 5rd, 20rd, 30rd, 40rd, 50rd, PTR91, German Parts, Surplus, RTG Parts
HK91, G3, Magazine, Mag, Pouch, 5rd, 20rd, 30rd, 40rd, 50rd, PTR91, German Parts, Surplus, RTG Parts
I've never had one side by side with an AR-10 mag, so I've got no comparison point. I could take some measurements if somebody has an AR-10/SR-25 mag they want to compare it to.
The reason why I bought the G3 mags was that I wanted to build an AR in .308. I looked around at all the mag options and came to the conclusion that because I was in MA - the G3 mags were the best choice because:
- Legal 20 rounders are easily available. The G3 mags have the benefit of being produced by anal Germans so most of the ones I've seen have the production date stamped right on them. So you can PROVE they're pre-ban (try that easily with most .223 20rd or 30rd AR mags)
- Overall availability and price. AR-10 and SR-25 mags are one or the other. If I remember correctly the SR-25 pattern mags didn't even appear until after the Federal AWB was enacted. Which means that you're never going to have a legal 20 round SR-25 mag in MA. And the AR-10s weren't that common before the AWB. Which means that legal AR-10 20 round mags are not common at all. Which = expensive.
- You can get G3 mags cheap enough (I've seen used ones go as cheap as $5-$6 each) - that if you were thinking of using the rifle as a SHTF gun you could have throwaway mags.
- The G3 mags are also available in both aluminum and steel.
The 7.62 AR world would have been a lot better off if somebody had just standardized a mag 30 or 40 years ago. Instead you've got FAL, M14, G3, AR-10, SR-25 and probably a few others I can't recall. Throw the MA AWB regulations into that mix and you've got a real PITA.
They are a little wider but not much.
i've embarked on similar projects in the past and all I got for my $$ was frustration. i get the sense you might be heading for a similar wastenado so here are a few thoughts intended to help you save $$. hopefully these do not come across as condescending.
1) decide what is the purpose of this project
-defensive
-hunting
-long range precision (i.e. accuracy)
-benchrest gun
-trainer rifle
-killy looking (#BlackRiflesMatter)
-aesthetics, i.e. to have two sexy looking rifles sitting next to each other (sounds like may be the case here). there's nothing wrong here. whatever floats the boat is cool.
2) based on #1, choose your chambering then optic
3) if new to the AR platform, would nudge you away from the 308. major issues with the 308 platform include the following:
-parts compatibility is nothing like the AR-15
-achieving a reliability is trickier. they are inherently overgassed to the point where they fail. i've had rims ripped off with empty brass stuck in chambers. if building an LR-308 would opt for an adjustable gas block. the Seekins is popular but I'm a fan of the SLR Rifleworks Sentry. if building an upper its less of an issue but if purchasing an assembled upper this requires installing a new gas block. sort of a PITA and becomes costly.
-due to above they are generally more sensitive to ammo compared to a .223. one load may run fine and other will not cycle. with an AR-15 and factory ammo it's a non-issue ~99% of the time
-weight. these rifles end up damn heavy especially if outfitted with quality glass, rifle length buffer -/+ tungsten weights (a bandaid fix for overgassing), precision stocks, etc
4) if you're going for accuracy then i wouldn't bother having the same chambering in each rifle because it's unlikely they are going to shoot the same load equally well. for example, my Bergara LRP shines with 168gr A-Max. there's not way i'm dropping that coin on ammo for an autoloader. i run craptastic wolf WPA 145gr 308 and it shoots like a boss to 300 yards (i got lucky with this barrel). consider building an AR-15 and matching 308 bolt gun. to me that makes some sense. now if you reload and want to stick with the same brass dies, brass, etc then it make sense to keep same chambering.
5) if planning on mags, as stated above I'd opt for DPMS/SR-25 pattern for the AR and AICS (e.g. magpul) for the bolt gun. one exception: i got to shoot a mossberg MVP in 308 (uses DPMS mags) and have to say I was actually pleasantly surprised by it. i had the same rifle in 5.56 and it cycled like shit. bullets would get all mangled up drying to feed out of the mag. no thanks.
6) it sounds like you've already got a R700 looking to upgrade? I would first decide whether you want an autoloader or to upgrade your R700 (and for what purpose), then perhaps build them out separately. less likely to turn into a cash pit. you can always finish them (duracoat, ceracoat) at the end.
7) minor detail: AR-10 is armalite design. what we're discussing here is a DPMS LR-308 clone. while subtle differences they're different rifles. everyone refers to 308 AR's as "AR-10" but once actually own one it's worth investing in the terminology.
this took me forever to type. my wife is now annoyed so must finish. good luck brother.
1) decide what is the purpose of this project
-defensive
-hunting
-long range precision (i.e. accuracy)
-benchrest gun
-trainer rifle
-killy looking (#BlackRiflesMatter)
-aesthetics, i.e. to have two sexy looking rifles sitting next to each other (sounds like may be the case here). there's nothing wrong here. whatever floats the boat is cool.
2) based on #1, choose your chambering then optic
3) if new to the AR platform, would nudge you away from the 308. major issues with the 308 platform include the following:
-parts compatibility is nothing like the AR-15
-achieving a reliability is trickier. they are inherently overgassed to the point where they fail. i've had rims ripped off with empty brass stuck in chambers. if building an LR-308 would opt for an adjustable gas block. the Seekins is popular but I'm a fan of the SLR Rifleworks Sentry. if building an upper its less of an issue but if purchasing an assembled upper this requires installing a new gas block. sort of a PITA and becomes costly.
-due to above they are generally more sensitive to ammo compared to a .223. one load may run fine and other will not cycle. with an AR-15 and factory ammo it's a non-issue ~99% of the time
-weight. these rifles end up damn heavy especially if outfitted with quality glass, rifle length buffer -/+ tungsten weights (a bandaid fix for overgassing), precision stocks, etc
4) if you're going for accuracy then i wouldn't bother having the same chambering in each rifle because it's unlikely they are going to shoot the same load equally well. for example, my Bergara LRP shines with 168gr A-Max. there's not way i'm dropping that coin on ammo for an autoloader. i run craptastic wolf WPA 145gr 308 and it shoots like a boss to 300 yards (i got lucky with this barrel). consider building an AR-15 and matching 308 bolt gun. to me that makes some sense. now if you reload and want to stick with the same brass dies, brass, etc then it make sense to keep same chambering.
5) if planning on mags, as stated above I'd opt for DPMS/SR-25 pattern for the AR and AICS (e.g. magpul) for the bolt gun. one exception: i got to shoot a mossberg MVP in 308 (uses DPMS mags) and have to say I was actually pleasantly surprised by it. i had the same rifle in 5.56 and it cycled like shit. bullets would get all mangled up drying to feed out of the mag. no thanks.
6) it sounds like you've already got a R700 looking to upgrade? I would first decide whether you want an autoloader or to upgrade your R700 (and for what purpose), then perhaps build them out separately. less likely to turn into a cash pit. you can always finish them (duracoat, ceracoat) at the end.
7) minor detail: AR-10 is armalite design. what we're discussing here is a DPMS LR-308 clone. while subtle differences they're different rifles. everyone refers to 308 AR's as "AR-10" but once actually own one it's worth investing in the terminology.
this took me forever to type. my wife is now annoyed so must finish. good luck brother.
Last edited:
@Squib308
You should try talk to text. I find it invaluable.
Thanks for the detailed response. Shooting Illustrated did an article about building up an AR10 type rifle and they while they did point out some of the pitfalls, they made it sound easier to navigate than you do. But then, who wants to read an article titled "this project is a Pita. Don't bother"
Honestly I was about to scrap the whole idea mainly because of the impossibility of the common mag.
The purpose of the project was in this order of priority
1) a challenging winter project to do with the 22 yr old son that I thought would look really sharp. (I'll be making a bow with the 5 yr old daughter this winter)
2) hunting, likely hogs in NC or TX. I have connections in both states.
3)defense, I've been feeling a bit unsettled lately like there is a disturbance in the force. Maybe I'm just getting old and paranoid. But I can't shake the feeling that TEOTWAWKI will occur in my life time.
Long range precision? Already have better platforms for that.
And yes, technically I'd be doing the DPMS LR 308 build up.
Thanks for the food for thought. If I commit to the project, I'll post the pics
You should try talk to text. I find it invaluable.
Thanks for the detailed response. Shooting Illustrated did an article about building up an AR10 type rifle and they while they did point out some of the pitfalls, they made it sound easier to navigate than you do. But then, who wants to read an article titled "this project is a Pita. Don't bother"
Honestly I was about to scrap the whole idea mainly because of the impossibility of the common mag.
The purpose of the project was in this order of priority
1) a challenging winter project to do with the 22 yr old son that I thought would look really sharp. (I'll be making a bow with the 5 yr old daughter this winter)
2) hunting, likely hogs in NC or TX. I have connections in both states.
3)defense, I've been feeling a bit unsettled lately like there is a disturbance in the force. Maybe I'm just getting old and paranoid. But I can't shake the feeling that TEOTWAWKI will occur in my life time.
Long range precision? Already have better platforms for that.
And yes, technically I'd be doing the DPMS LR 308 build up.
Thanks for the food for thought. If I commit to the project, I'll post the pics
Well that would be an easier project as I have a Russian SKS that could be made to look evil. Plenty of aftermarket swag available. And my son has a Ruger 77 chambered in that round.
I was trying to keep it NATO compatible but I am beginning to worry that there won't be much "fun" in that route.
If the SKS has decent wood furniture please don’t festoon it w polymer crap! Everytime I see a tacti-cooled SKS i cringe. Once I was at four seasons they had this bullpup SKS on consignment that looked retarded. So I commented something like “ such a shame there’s perfectly good wood furniture sitting in some idiot’s basement”. My buddy behind the counter made a strange face. Turns out the rifles owner was standing right next to me!
To each his own but I see the SKS as a historical and ceremonial rifle. Even the most beat up ones look good.
To each his own but I see the SKS as a historical and ceremonial rifle. Even the most beat up ones look good.
M
Besides, the SKS project was supposed to be the one i did with my father. I have two and he had one (that I now possess). So really my heart isn't in it.
Functionality is the most important and fun as in a more challenging project than just swapping a stock and adding a DM.
Besides, the SKS project was supposed to be the one i did with my father. I have two and he had one (that I now possess). So really my heart isn't in it.
Thank you Brother. That is a very generous offer.
I'm located a bit further south than you in GB. I don't venture north of Rte 102 very often but I sure would enjoy seeing your build.
You've got a really nice club in Lee. Did some single shot matches about a decade ago with a bunch of guys with Ballard and Hi Wall Winchesters.
I'll send you a PM.
Thanks
Fritz
