Brandishing scenario...your in your truck...

[ToddDubya]

Which pepper spray is safe to keep in a car?

I contacted Fox about this a couple years ago about this and was assured it's okay to keep Fox 5.3 in my vehicle in all seasons we encounter in New England. I'll have to look for the actual email for the details. I may have even posted it in another thread here.

 

[42!]

lol Yeah were real protected.. Ok Ill play along.

I've had my LTC suspended 3x... how about you?

Oh right you've never gotten so much as a parking ticket.. but are worried about getting a life sentence cause your handgun was in your glove box.

Well for those of us without connections a dismissal can mean no LTC, heck in a lot of towns/cities just a single arrest will mean no LTC.

Your LTC was suspended 3 times and still have it? You live is a special world separate from the rest of us.

Feel free to enlighten us, why was it suspended?

 

[mjbff]

Love hypothetical questions

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Well for those of us without connections a dismissal can mean no LTC, heck in a lot of towns/cities just a single arrest will mean no LTC.

NOT a hypothetical:

I am familiar of a case where someone showed his gun to someone threatening him after a verbal altercation. He was charged, and the charges eventually dropped because the other party exercised his right not to testify as he (the other party) was facing charges of felony assault for a different incident. The other party also had a record of assault with a dangerous weapon/shod foot.

The chief refused to reinstate the LTC, and the district court backed that decision. The subject had to settle for an FID.

 

[drgrant]

Bottom line is, if you pull your gun you're F'd... so only draw if your life depends on it since you're almost certainly going to lose your LTC (in MA) if you show the gun.

LOL worrying about "losing your LTC" should be the absolute least of your worries. If shit goes badly, its more like "worrying about dealing with charges of assault with a deadly weapon" which is a potentially federally disabling felony. Suitability is a yawnfest issue compared to
that. Being unsuitable- you can move away from that problem to 40 something other states that won't treat you like human garbage for wanting to own firearms. Being federally prohibited is 1000 times worse....

-Mike

 

[MMArtist]

Was the LTC suspended while you were a LE officer (including post-employment), or just an ordinary citizen?

If you had LE status (including retired), you cannot compare your experience getting your LTC unsuspended to that of a lowly civilian.

A great example is Framingham. Shoot someone through the neck by mistake as a LEO - "accident for which no charges are appropriate"; Shoot youself in the hand as a civilian and you get criminally charged. (both happened).

2x were when I was a younger man for unrelated charges that would be disqualifying if convicted. They were dismissed. I got my LTC back by the time I left the court. This is in a unfriendly town that issues target and hunting, both times no lawyer. I personally don't think of highly of lawyers as all you guys do. All these lawyers know each other... and I personally know lawyers who will make cross client deals. Like "Ill give you this client if you cut me a better deal on my other client". Lawyers are shady as hell, if I can avoid using one I do.

1x was duty related.

All 3 went pretty easy.

The key is don't be an idiot... and if you F*** up keep your mouth shut. That guy your talking about that got charged was either drunk or incriminated himself when the LEO talked to him. LEO don't get off cause they are protected per se.. its because they know what to say.. and what not to say.

 

[42!]

2x were when I was a younger man for unrelated charges that would be disqualifying if convicted. They were dismissed. I got my LTC back by the time I left the court. This is in a unfriendly town that issues target and hunting, both times no lawyer. I personally don't think of highly of lawyers as all you guys do. All these lawyers know each other... and I personally know lawyers who will make cross client deals. Like "Ill give you this client if you cut me a better deal on my other client". Lawyers are shady as hell, if I can avoid using one I do.

1x was duty related.

All 3 went pretty easy.

The key is don't be an idiot... and if you F*** up keep your mouth shut. That guy your talking about that got charged was either drunk or incriminated himself when the LEO talked to him. LEO don't get off cause they are protected per se.. its because they know what to say.. and what not to say.

Why do I think this guy has family connections, maybe relatives on the PD, or other connections. 3 times is a lot even for a green town. Hell, I've done a lot less and have a suitability issue, admittedly the town plays a big role in this. But 3 times and just walks away with his LTC intact?? There is something seriously wrong in this state when the application of the law varies so much. This is effing bull shit.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That guy your talking about that got charged was either drunk or incriminated himself when the LEO talked to him.

I am a bit more familiar with the case than you, having spoken to the subject at length and reading the police report and court decision from the LTC revocation appeal. The two facts are (1) someone who threatened him said "He pulled a gun on me", and (2) He admitted to being in possession of a handgun when asked by responding police. There is NOTHING he could had said, or not said, to avoid a charge. Also, when police are asking "are you carrying a gun" responding with "I will not answer that question without legal counsel present" may not be the best strategy.

The crux of the revocation was the fact that the confrontation was initiated by the gun carrier over a very trivial matter, therefore, the chief concluded the gun was pulled over <trivial issue> (detail omitted for privacy).

LEO don't get off cause they are protected per se.. its because they know what to say.. and what not to say.

It is both. How else do you explain the MSP trooper who faced no charges for shooting a woman in a hunting accident? Or the Framingham officer who was not charged after shooting Eurie Stamps by accident when the very same department that filed criminal charges against an LTC holder in town who accidentally shot himself in the hand?

I do know of a case where the subject was convicted in a dog shooting because he did not describe his actions in a manner compliant with MGL ... a mistake no competent police officer would have made describing the identical situation.

 

[MMArtist]

I am a bit more familiar with the case than you, having spoken to the subject at length and reading the police report and court decision from the LTC revocation appeal. The two facts are (1) someone who threatened him said "He pulled a gun on me", and (2) He admitted to being in possession of a handgun when asked by responding police. There is NOTHING he could had said, or not said, to avoid a charge. Also, when police are asking "are you carrying a gun" responding with "I will not answer that question without legal counsel present" may not be the best strategy.

The crux of the revocation was the fact that the confrontation was initiated by the gun carrier over a very trivial matter, therefore, the chief concluded the gun was pulled over <trivial issue> (detail omitted for privacy).


It is both. How else do you explain the MSP trooper who faced no charges for shooting a woman in a hunting accident? Or the Framingham officer who was not charged after shooting Eurie Stamps by accident when the very same department that filed criminal charges against an LTC holder in town who accidentally shot himself in the hand?

I do know of a case where the subject was convicted in a dog shooting because he did not describe his actions in a manner compliant with MGL ... a mistake no competent police officer would have made describing the identical situation.

This backs up exactly what I am saying. First of all I wouldn't flash or wave a gun at a guy. I would either shoot him if necessary or keep it concealed. So he does something stupid, then has the gun on him when stopped which is equally stupid. Then admits to it and I am sure he said a lot more once they started telling him he was going to be charged. Trying to explain himself digging the hole deeper instead of keeping his mouth shut. Then later of course they say "Nothing I could do I didn't say anything". Don't know the guy but I can say he is an idiot.

The 3 LEO charges your talking about backs up what I am saying as well. 2 guys shoot a person, they get nothing. I don't know anything about the incidents but I am guessing they are prolly experienced guys that know the game. They said the right thing ez pz. Other guy shoots a dog says something f***ing dumb and gets jammed.

 

[MMArtist]

Why do I think this guy has family connections, maybe relatives on the PD, or other connections. 3 times is a lot even for a green town. Hell, I've done a lot less and have a suitability issue, admittedly the town plays a big role in this. But 3 times and just walks away with his LTC intact?? There is something seriously wrong in this state when the application of the law varies so much. This is effing bull shit.

Back then I didn't know anyone. Was from a different part of the state. I obviously know people now.

 

[gamma19]

I am a bit more familiar with the case than you, having spoken to the subject at length and reading the police report and court decision from the LTC revocation appeal. The two facts are (1) someone who threatened him said "He pulled a gun on me", and (2) He admitted to being in possession of a handgun when asked by responding police. There is NOTHING he could had said, or not said, to avoid a charge. Also, when police are asking "are you carrying a gun" responding with "I will not answer that question without legal counsel present" may not be the best strategy.

The crux of the revocation was the fact that the confrontation was initiated by the gun carrier over a very trivial matter, therefore, the chief concluded the gun was pulled over <trivial issue> (detail omitted for privacy).


It is both. How else do you explain the MSP trooper who faced no charges for shooting a woman in a hunting accident? Or the Framingham officer who was not charged after shooting Eurie Stamps by accident when the very same department that filed criminal charges against an LTC holder in town who accidentally shot himself in the hand?

I do know of a case where the subject was convicted in a dog shooting because he did not describe his actions in a manner compliant with MGL ... a mistake no competent police officer would have made describing the identical situation.

Don't forget the Quincy cop from a couple of years ago who left his issued handgun on top of his personal vehicle and drove away, with the gun falling off the roof on the side of the road to be found by a passerby. Or the cops in that same city who got drunk while on detail duty at Marina Bay and shot out the street lights with their service weapons. IIRC, none were fired, none had their LTCs revoked and are still on the PD. Meanwhile, that department has revoked LTCs for much less, including one case that caused quite a ruckus on this forum where a citizen drew and fired at a guy coming at him with a knife.

That said, the current chief is more "reasonable" than the last one, who graciously allows an unrestricted LTC at age 25, while the previous chief was downgrading unrestricted LTCs to Target/Hunting at renewal.

 

[free]

That said.

 

[cams]

2x were when I was a younger man for unrelated charges that would be disqualifying if convicted. They were dismissed. I got my LTC back by the time I left the court. This is in a unfriendly town that issues target and hunting, both times no lawyer. I personally don't think of highly of lawyers as all you guys do. All these lawyers know each other... and I personally know lawyers who will make cross client deals. Like "Ill give you this client if you cut me a better deal on my other client". Lawyers are shady as hell, if I can avoid using one I do.

1x was duty related.

All 3 went pretty easy.

The key is don't be an idiot... and if you F*** up keep your mouth shut. That guy your talking about that got charged was either drunk or incriminated himself when the LEO talked to him. LEO don't get off cause they are protected per se.. its because they know what to say.. and what not to say.

Some of the things you’re saying in this thread have me scratching my head.

If you had been suspended twice as a young man for whatever the charges were, I find it hard to believe you would’ve passed the background check during the hiring process for a police dept, that’s a lot of liability to take on with a new recruit when there’s a 1K+ waiting in line behind you for that spot.

The suspension of your LTC the third time for an “on duty” incident also does not sit right with me.

When you say you’ve been in the LE “Field” for most of your life, what exactly does that mean? It sounds as though you’re implying that you’re a police officer, but the “field” of LE could be as simple as store security at Walmart, one of those mall cops with the spiffy trooper hats and shiny Batman belt, all the way up through a dispatcher hired by a PD but with no actual police powers.

I’m really just more curious than anything, but would you care to elaborate on that?

 

[MMArtist]

Some of the things you’re saying in this thread have me scratching my head.

If you had been suspended twice as a young man for whatever the charges were, I find it hard to believe you would’ve passed the background check during the hiring process for a police dept, that’s a lot of liability to take on with a new recruit when there’s a 1K+ waiting in line behind you for that spot.

The suspension of your LTC the third time for an “on duty” incident also does not sit right with me.

When you say you’ve been in the LE “Field” for most of your life, what exactly does that mean? It sounds as though you’re implying that you’re a police officer, but the “field” of LE could be as simple as store security at Walmart, one of those mall cops with the spiffy trooper hats and shiny Batman belt, all the way up through a dispatcher hired by a PD but with no actual police powers.

I’m really just more curious than anything, but would you care to elaborate on that?

I have worked in LE field in various capacities.. right now I work for DHS.

That batman belt sounds cool though.

 

[42!]

I have worked in LE field in various capacities.. right now I work for DHS.

Meaningless response. DHS has receptionists, IT workers, and someone to sweep the floors just like any other organization. The more you dance around it the less believable you become.

Answer yes or no to this: Are you a sworn law enforcement officer with the power to arrest everywhere within the US borders?

 

[Sterg]

Was the LTC suspended while you were a LE officer (including post-employment), or just an ordinary citizen?

If you had LE status (including retired), you cannot compare your experience getting your LTC unsuspended to that of a lowly civilian.

A great example is Framingham. Shoot someone through the neck by mistake as a LEO - "accident for which no charges are appropriate"; Shoot youself in the hand as a civilian and you get criminally charged. (both happened).

Wow.Criminally charged for shooting yourself? I wonder if it happened at a range if it would be different.

 

[whacko]

I have worked in LE field in various capacities.. right now I work for DHS.

That batman belt sounds cool though.

What do you do for DHS? Just answer the damn question.

You sound like this mechanic I know in the army that always said "back when I was with special forces......"

Note the strategic use of the word "with" rather than "in". Yeah....he was a mechanic ATTACHED to a group that fixed the special forces broken shit!

What do you DO for DHS?

 

[Matt_SERE]

MMArtist, do you teach ground fighting or strength training and conditioning for teams as your primary interaction with them?

 

[42!]

MMArtist, do you teach ground fighting or strength training and conditioning for teams as your primary interaction with them?

More likely he works at some gym/training-center and a couple of his students are TSA (cop wannabes), and he calls this working "with". Probably nothing official. I'm starting to think the whole LTC story was just BS.

 

[SteelShooter]

multiple dash cams that are movable

 

[E.Stoner]

And awwaayyy we go!

This thread is interesting and actually relevant to an encounter I had about 3 weeks ago. I was driving through Harvard square and blipped my horn at a guy who was blocking a lane at an intersection. I drove around him and dude pulled in behind me at the like and got out his car yelling and gesticulating like he was fighting off a swarm of ghost bees. Dude was off his rocker and came up to my passenger side window yelling that "about never honk at me and I'll beat your ass etc. etc."
My windows were up and I just looked at the guy, nodded my head, and he got back in his car and life went on. The end.

The thing that got me thinking, if that situation had gone south (guy had weapon+smashed window) that I didn't have a hands-off defensive option in between a harsh word and 9mm-HST-bimetal-pepper-spray.
Later that day, I got a fresh can of mace for my center console just for good measure, but the fact is 99% percent of these confrontations can be avoided by not doing anything, de-escalating, or evasion.
If you carry and the first thing that pops into your head is "how is my gun going to solve this problem?", that's probably a bad sign. In this case, I predict self-fulfilling prophecy and major legal gang-banging in your future.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[MMArtist]

More likely he works at some gym/training-center and a couple of his students are TSA (cop wannabes), and he calls this working "with". Probably nothing official. I'm starting to think the whole LTC story was just BS.

You guys are comical. I am a security contractor for them. I do a lot of Armed escort for federal VIPs (judges and the like), lower level politicians at times as well, Access Control for federal buildings and a few other things.. depending on the day. The "police powers" are limited to federal property and when on official government business. To be honest don't really care about all that though. Work is about money... and private contracting for the federal government pays 3x what you make as a city LEO plus federal hours... ie no Nights, Weekends, Holidays ever and tons of vacation.

Satisfied?

 

[42!]

You guys are comical. I am a security contractor for them. I do a lot of Armed escort for federal VIPs (judges and the like), lower level politicians at times as well, Access Control for federal buildings and a few other things.. depending on the day. The "police powers" are limited to federal property and when on official government business. To be honest don't really care about all that though. Work is about money... and private contracting for the federal government pays 3x what you make as a city LEO plus federal hours... ie no Nights, Weekends, Holidays ever and tons of vacation.

Satisfied?

Not really. In fact you're just making me think it's more likely to be BS. Because I actually know, or knew because it's been a bunch of years, someone who did high end stuff and often worked with the Secret Service. And he wouldn't ever even hint about it in public. In fact, the higher up you go the less they talk about it. So no, don't believe a word at this point.

 

[MMArtist]

Well then I guess we are done here

 

[42!]

Well then I guess we are done here

 

[Sterg]

You guys need to start a new thread.....maybe share a few poems.....favorite cigars....

 

[cams]

You guys are comical. I am a security contractor for them. I do a lot of Armed escort for federal VIPs (judges and the like), lower level politicians at times as well, Access Control for federal buildings and a few other things.. depending on the day. The "police powers" are limited to federal property and when on official government business. To be honest don't really care about all that though. Work is about money... and private contracting for the federal government pays 3x what you make as a city LEO plus federal hours... ie no Nights, Weekends, Holidays ever and tons of vacation.

Satisfied?

Been away a few days and wanted to comment on this, not beat an old horse. I personally am satisfied with this response. I know quite a few guys that contract both CONUS/OCONUS, static and dynamic type jobs.

There is nothing in this post above that would need to be kept close hold or violates any type of OPSEC/PERSEC. Contracting is not some secret mercenary thing anymore slyly posted in the back of SOF Magazine, it’s posted daily on the gov jobs list and dozens of security company’s out there hiring publicly.

What was posted above doesn’t include any of the usual key words that posers use such as “its classified”or “its black” or “all my files were burnt in the 74 fire” etc etc. and the poster doesn’t appear to be making it sound that way, it’s a simple low/mid level principle protection gig, and was explained fairly well without the fluff of chest beating or secretive black ops.

Initially I thought the poster (MMArtist) was maybe posing at being a sworn local type LEO, and that didn’t fit with what was written, his response to that appears legit to me and not far fetched, not that I’m an expert on it but I’ve spent quite a bit of time exposing mil type posers in the past with a group of SOF from all branches.

That said, MMArtist, first beer’s on me if we ever meet. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[cams]

I think the thread is pretty much dead on its own weight, but I also felt that MMArtist needed a response from me since I questioned him initially and wanted to give him that.

 

[weekendracer]

You guys need to start a new thread.....maybe share a few poems.....favorite cigars....

That almost sounds like it came out of your avatar's mouth.

 

[42!]

Been away a few days and wanted to comment on this, not beat an old horse. I personally am satisfied with this response. I know quite a few guys that contract both CONUS/OCONUS, static and dynamic type jobs.

There is nothing in this post above that would need to be kept close hold or violates any type of OPSEC/PERSEC. Contracting is not some secret mercenary thing anymore slyly posted in the back of SOF Magazine, it’s posted daily on the gov jobs list and dozens of security company’s out there hiring publicly.

What was posted above doesn’t include any of the usual key words that posers use such as “its classified”or “its black” or “all my files were burnt in the 74 fire” etc etc. and the poster doesn’t appear to be making it sound that way, it’s a simple low/mid level principle protection gig, and was explained fairly well without the fluff of chest beating or secretive black ops.

Initially I thought the poster (MMArtist) was maybe posing at being a sworn local type LEO, and that didn’t fit with what was written, his response to that appears legit to me and not far fetched, not that I’m an expert on it but I’ve spent quite a bit of time exposing mil type posers in the past with a group of SOF from all branches.

That said, MMArtist, first beer’s on me if we ever meet. Sorry for the confusion.

Well, I have a lot of respect for cams, and he's certainly got more experience on this stuff than I do. I still think MMArtist might be leaving something out of the LTC thing, but I will concede that what he does is what he says he does.