Bobs Tactical had an incident.

[Rick Roma]

There's probably a wrongful death lawsuit coming their way. Here in Libachusetts they are likely going to get screwed as well......

 

[vietboy1st]

somebody gotta learn.. lol.

 

[Shooters-Hooksett]

Im not worked up about it, but it is akin to all those laws that we say will do nothing to stop a criminal. Like MFLR said, he loses some business because of the rule, but I am sure the range overall appears to be a bit safer. Hell, I stopped going to AFS after watching the untrained public try to shoot on their own. (Not that training should be mandatory) so I see merit for the rule in a slightly different way as well.

Don't need to pig pile on you but - People that go to AFS,Bob's Tactical,MFL and others go there to learn. New people in this sport,hobby,right to own etc. need a place to learn,and we offer just that. Years ago I was at a Manchester Gun Show all set up to sell eight tables of stuff, looked around and realized that the Dealers & Crowd were mostly old! Same stuff as before,same dealers,same inventory,same customers too!

I walked away from that show and started ladies night,encouraged families to come in with children, and eliminated a paid guest with members to encourage bringing friends. Ten years later, we have 1,250 Members,35-40% of all folks in the door are women,and some of these women are bringing in the children to learn - and average 3,000 + people a month using our facility. Without places to learn,many would never do so, and the anti gun crowd would be larger due to the lack of education.

Next time you visit AFS or any local club - and see people doing something unsafe - why not ask if they would like some help?
I find it a thrill to take a new person out,teach them to shoot safely, and have them leave with a huge smile! Try it,it's rewarding....

One of my Members is the wife of a murdered police officer, it would be so easy for her to have hatred of firearms and the gun community.
This woman is amazing! She brings her two boys in to learn,shoot and have fun. She even bought one of them a Bushmaster M4 for Christmas. This may have been different if we were not here for her and those boys.

Suicides are real,they're ugly for all that deal with them, and make the news every time.
What about the ones we prevent? What about the people we teach, that walk away knowing enough so an accident does not happen?
You can't measure that!

 

[Moderator]

Anyone that cared about the sport, the way of life, etc. and offed themselves with a gun at a range is an effin cowardly scumbag. If you disagree I don't really give a shit. Go freeze to death, eat a bottle of Valium, run the car in the garage.. Don't go and do something that will make some pussy liberal douchebag try to pass more effin laws to ruin everyone else's lives.

This may be one of the worst posts I have ever read here. This person has so many problems with their own self and the world, do you really think they are capable at their mental state to care about gun rights? Are these are the types of people you want to support our cause?

 

[ChargingCharlie]

Wow! Tons of hypocrisy in this thread! How can some of you say we should not need a permit to exercise our rights and then also say that these ranges should only let people with permits rent guns?

 

[arlow]

Dude just stop.

+1000!!!! WTF???

 

[richc]

Anyone that cared about the sport, the way of life, etc. and offed themselves with a gun at a range is an effin cowardly scumbag. If you disagree I don't really give a shit. Go freeze to death, eat a bottle of Valium, run the car in the garage.. Don't go and do something that will make some pussy liberal douchebag try to pass more effin laws to ruin everyone else's lives.

You really don't get it, do you.

 

[drgrant]

Wow! Tons of hypocrisy in this thread! How can some of you say we should not need a permit to exercise our rights and then also say that these ranges should only let people with permits rent guns?

What hypocrisy?

There's a big difference between one's natural rights and the rights of a private business owner to operate his facility in the way that he sees fit. The business owner's policy does not infringe on your rights whatsoever, as you are perfectly free to shoot somewhere else, or buy a gun somewhere else, or rent it somewhere else. The business owner is not coming into your home/property and telling you what you can and cannot do, like the government can if it abuses its power.

-Mike

 

[arlow]

What hypocrisy?

There's a big difference between one's natural rights and the rights of a private business owner to operate his facility in the way that he sees fit. The business owner's policy does not infringe on your rights whatsoever, as you are perfectly free to shoot somewhere else, or buy a gun somewhere else, or rent it somewhere else. The business owner is not coming into your home/property and telling you what you can and cannot do, like the government can if it abuses its power.

-Mike

Well said!!!

 

[ChargingCharlie]

What hypocrisy?

There's a big difference between one's natural rights and the rights of a private business owner to operate his facility in the way that he sees fit. The business owner's policy does not infringe on your rights whatsoever, as you are perfectly free to shoot somewhere else, or buy a gun somewhere else, or rent it somewhere else. The business owner is not coming into your home/property and telling you what you can and cannot do, like the government can if it abuses its power.

-Mike

Then what would your "fix" be if we lived in a free state that did not require permits? If a business owner wants to make people pass a test before using their facilities then that's fine by me. What's hypocritical is saying that we shouldn't have to have LTC permits to exercise our rights and then say "Let's use those very permits to factor who can and can't use our range". Are you saying that you should be able to use "Bob's" facilities, but someone from a town that it's impossible to get a permit should be told to go screw? That is what I'm saying is hypocritical.

 

[arlow]

Then what would your "fix" be if we lived in a free state that did not require permits?

Moot point, Neither range is in a totaly free state. Keep to the facts here not hypothetical tangents.

There is no "Fix". The business owner is using known statitical probability to reduce the chances of having another suicide on his own Private Property . His choices are logical and legal. If you dont like it dont frequent his establishment!

He didnt create the LTC system but there is enough data to prove that those with LTC's are many many times less likely to off themselves in such a gun range.

 

[drgrant]

Then what would your "fix" be if we lived in a free state that did not require permits?

Some ranges require a permit OR that you are accompanied by one other adult on the range. (I think MFLRs policy is this way, not sure).

If a business owner wants to make people pass a test before using their facilities then that's fine by me. What's hypocritical is saying that we shouldn't have to have LTC permits to exercise our rights and then say "Let's use those very permits to factor who can and can't use our range". Are you saying that you should be able to use "Bob's" facilities, but someone from a town that it's impossible to get a permit should be told to go screw? That is what I'm saying is hypocritical.

If the private business owner wants to tell someone to go screw, for any reason that's his prerogative. That has NOTHING to do with gun rights, permit issuance, or any of that crap. He'll bear the burden of his decision one way or another via free market forces. Unlike the situation with bad government, with private entities I can voice my displeasure with their decisions if I want to by taking my money somewhere else.

-Mike

 

[ChargingCharlie]

There is no "Fix". The business owner is using known statitical probability to reduce the chances of having another suicide on his own Private Property . His choices are logical and legal. If you dont like it dont frequent his establishment!

No need to get your panties in a twist....I never once said he doesn't have the right to do what was proposed. All I said is that it's a hypocritical stance to have and, IMO, it won't reduce the number of potential suicides. What it will do, for sure, is reduce his amount of potential customers.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

If the private business owner wants to tell someone to go screw, for any reason that's his prerogative. That has NOTHING to do with gun rights, permit issuance, or any of that crap. He'll bear the burden of his decision one way or another via free market forces. Unlike the situation with bad government, with private entities I can voice my displeasure with their decisions if I want to by taking my money somewhere else.

-Mike

Again...I never said that. I called it out as hypocrisy (which is what it would be). It would be like a person saying they are 100% for people being able to take a dog wherever they want and then posting a sign on their door that read "no dogs allowed"

 

[arlow]

, it won't reduce the number of potential suicides.

MFLR has already stated in this thread that there is clear statistical data that states the suicide at the range incident rate is much, much lower among licensed gun users vs unlicensed users.

The insurance companies live by numbers! The numbers are 1/30,000 coming in the door has the intent of doing this at a public range. They also say that 99.5% of these bastards come alone,have usually been there before etc. etc. They also say that 99% that do it don't own a firearm, and that's why I changed my rules to LTC,Member,Safety Course Certificate etc.

LTC people and alike- most likely own a firearm, and would do the job at home. I turn people away every week,lose much needed money to pay some huge bills, piss off a few that give me bad reviews - but I sleep better at night that we put the safety of our people & customers above profit. It's not a fool proof system - but it's a good way to reduce the chances of a bad day.

Its not hypocritical, its common sense.

 

[drgrant]

Again...I never said that. I called it out as hypocrisy (which is what it would be).

How is it hypocritical? You still haven't explained that. Also, using what I posited above, there is an alternative to not having a permit- bring a friend, or bring your own guns, so that gets the "permit" issue off the table.

It would be like a person saying they are 100% for people being able to take a dog wherever they want and then posting a sign on their door that read "no dogs allowed"

I'll take "Bad strawman using excessive hyperbole for $1000, Alex!"

This sort of policy is more like "Your dog is welcome in our store as long as it's vaccinated and on leash". The proportion of people it's likely to annoy is not going to be statistically significant.

What it will do, for sure, is reduce his amount of potential customers.

Apparently you've never been to MFL or any other range with a similar policy on a cold weekend. Yeah, they're turning away tons of people!!!!

-Mike

 

[Mr Weebles]

Don't need to pig pile on you but - People that go to AFS,Bob's Tactical,MFL and others go there to learn. New people in this sport,hobby,right to own etc. need a place to learn,and we offer just that. Years ago I was at a Manchester Gun Show all set up to sell eight tables of stuff, looked around and realized that the Dealers & Crowd were mostly old! Same stuff as before,same dealers,same inventory,same customers too!

I walked away from that show and started ladies night,encouraged families to come in with children, and eliminated a paid guest with members to encourage bringing friends. Ten years later, we have 1,250 Members,35-40% of all folks in the door are women,and some of these women are bringing in the children to learn - and average 3,000 + people a month using our facility. Without places to learn,many would never do so, and the anti gun crowd would be larger due to the lack of education.

Next time you visit AFS or any local club - and see people doing something unsafe - why not ask if they would like some help?
I find it a thrill to take a new person out,teach them to shoot safely, and have them leave with a huge smile! Try it,it's rewarding....

One of my Members is the wife of a murdered police officer, it would be so easy for her to have hatred of firearms and the gun community.
This woman is amazing! She brings her two boys in to learn,shoot and have fun. She even bought one of them a Bushmaster M4 for Christmas. This may have been different if we were not here for her and those boys.

Suicides are real,they're ugly for all that deal with them, and make the news every time.
What about the ones we prevent? What about the people we teach, that walk away knowing enough so an accident does not happen?
You can't measure that!

+1 Well said.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

Its not hypocritical, its common sense.

Who says that something hypocritical can't make good business sense? I never said that...I just said it was hypocritical (which it is)

 

[Independence Arms]

CSI Miami stands for Crime Stuff In Miami!

Too much CSI. Wait... what does CSI stand for?

I took my LTC class there years ago, and I remember the class was cancelled because of the Brookline abortion clinic shooting. The guy was in Bob's Tactical the day before practicing with lifelike targets, and the guys at Bobs had to go testify in court on the same day my class was held.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

How is it hypocritical? You still haven't explained that. Also, using what I posited above, there is an alternative to not having a permit- bring a friend, or bring your own guns, so that gets the "permit" issue off the table.

I did...you just failed to read it. I said that it is hypocritical to say we shouldn't need LTCs but then say that those very LTCs (we don't need) should be used to decide who can and can't be your customer. Is that really that difficult to understand?

I'll take "Bad strawman using excessive hyperbole for $1000, Alex!"

This sort of policy is more like "Your dog is welcome in our store as long as it's vaccinated and on leash". The proportion of people it's likely to annoy is not going to be statistically significant.

No...it would be more like saying that you don't believe their should be a law requiring dogs to be vaccinated and have state certificates to prove it and then saying that those very certificates would be needed for you to bring your dog to their store.

Apparently you've never been to MFL or any other range with a similar policy on a cold weekend. Yeah, they're turning away tons of people!!!!

-Mike

I never said they were. I said they'd be losing POTENTIAL customers.

 

[Madball13]

Just got off the phone with Jack and he's doing as well as expected and told me he appreciates the support from NES.

Bob had a professional clean up crew in last night to disinfect the place and the plan is to have no business interruption.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

Oh...one last thing. I was also never giving these business owners crap for having a policy like that. I was calling the people here hypocrites for saying LTC's should be required to shoot at a range while in other threads they boast about how we should not be required to have LTCs. A business owner has the right to do something hypocritical, IMO, if it means better business.

 

[EC1]

Some ranges require a permit OR that you are accompanied by one other adult on the range. (I think MFLRs policy is this way, not sure).




If the private business owner wants to tell someone to go screw, for any reason that's his prerogative. That has NOTHING to do with gun rights, permit issuance, or any of that crap. He'll bear the burden of his decision one way or another via free market forces. Unlike the situation with bad government, with private entities I can voice my displeasure with their decisions if I want to by taking my money somewhere else.

-Mike

Wonder what the reaction would be if a minority without an LTC (but not prohibited) was refused and went to the AG?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Don't need to pig pile on you but - People that go to AFS,Bob's Tactical,MFL and others go there to learn. New people in this sport,hobby,right to own etc. need a place to learn,and we offer just that. Years ago I was at a Manchester Gun Show all set up to sell eight tables of stuff, looked around and realized that the Dealers & Crowd were mostly old! Same stuff as before,same dealers,same inventory,same customers too!

I walked away from that show and started ladies night,encouraged families to come in with children, and eliminated a paid guest with members to encourage bringing friends. Ten years later, we have 1,250 Members,35-40% of all folks in the door are women,and some of these women are bringing in the children to learn - and average 3,000 + people a month using our facility. Without places to learn,many would never do so, and the anti gun crowd would be larger due to the lack of education.

Next time you visit AFS or any local club - and see people doing something unsafe - why not ask if they would like some help?
I find it a thrill to take a new person out,teach them to shoot safely, and have them leave with a huge smile! Try it,it's rewarding....

One of my Members is the wife of a murdered police officer, it would be so easy for her to have hatred of firearms and the gun community.
This woman is amazing! She brings her two boys in to learn,shoot and have fun. She even bought one of them a Bushmaster M4 for Christmas. This may have been different if we were not here for her and those boys.

Suicides are real,they're ugly for all that deal with them, and make the news every time.
What about the ones we prevent? What about the people we teach, that walk away knowing enough so an accident does not happen?
You can't measure that!

+1000 for Jim!

 

[Madball13]

Oh...one last thing. I was also never giving these business owners crap for having a policy like that. I was calling the people here hypocrites for saying LTC's should be required to shoot at a range while in other threads they boast about how we should not be required to have LTCs. A business owner has the right to do something hypocritical, IMO, if it means better business.

WGAF, just stop.

 

[pbearperry]

Why don't they just post a sign saying"Suicides not allowed on the property."? Seriously,the problem with suicide is that when the little bell in the mind says do it,that's pretty much it. I myself would rather open a bottle of booze and take sleeping pills,but that's me.Why a lot of guys like to make a mess is beyond me?Most of the suicides by men I have been involved with used guns and rope.Most women used pills,cut their wrists or drove their cars into something unmoveable.The human mind is a complex thing.
My prayers are for the deceased and the family.Bad situation all around.

 

[Harleynut]

Things like this hurt everyone from the guys family and friends to Bobs and all gun owners. You just can't make sence for actions like this no matter how hard you try.
I was heading over there yesterday but ended up staying home. Glad I did now. I'll stop by later.

 

[M1911]

Wow! Tons of hypocrisy in this thread! How can some of you say we should not need a permit to exercise our rights and then also say that these ranges should only let people with permits rent guns?

The government requiring a license for you to exercise your rights is entirely different from a private business trying to reduce its risk.

Oh...one last thing. I was also never giving these business owners crap for having a policy like that.

Sure you are.

I was calling the people here hypocrites for saying LTC's should be required to shoot at a range while in other threads they boast about how we should not be required to have LTCs.

I've never suggested that a range should or should not have this policy. I completely understand why they have this policy and I believe it reduces the number of suicides at ranges that have this policy. It is up to the business owner to decide whether or not to enact such a policy, and I have no problem with such ranges either way.

 

[Tooth]

Total bummer. Hope all is well with the guys and regulars at the shop. Took my "first" course there w/ Jim in 93.

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

Just got off the phone with Jack and he's doing as well as expected and told me he appreciates the support from NES.

He called me back also and apologized for not calling last night, he said his cell & the shop phone were ringing off the hook. I read him some of this thread. He does appreciate the support.

I was just @ the forge next to my job a few minutes ago and I saw someone that was @ Bob's when it happened. Gruesome Details [sad2] .

Bob had a professional clean up crew in last night to disinfect the place and the plan is to have no business interruption.

Ben ?