AZ - Jose Guerena Shot 60 Times By SWAT Team

[xtry51]

Isn't arresting a guy that walks and talks like a drug dealer enough P.C. to search his home?

Sent from my chimney using smoke signals.

Why bother with probable cause at all! Just call him a terrorist.

It's only a matter of time before NDAA is openly used to arrest "suspects".

 

[namedpipes]

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[Bill Katt]

I would love to say you're nuts, take off the tin foil battle helmet.

But I agree with you, so there it is.

This... ^

 

[Rancho]

By in large, we (prior combat arms) find American civilians self-centered, entitled, do nothing, cry baby bi%$#es which we constantly want to kick in the face and remind that the world isn't as much "cupcakes and happy thoughts" as it is "hand grenades and genocide". We also tend to despise people back home because they assume that if they do not approve, it should be illegal and anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb/ evil. Most who I know agree that if the "average" U.S. citizen had to fight against the average citizen of a third world nation, they would get crushed.

I'm not a soldier and I'm not a badass by any means, but I feel the same way about many of my fellow civilians. I am amazed at the weakness and ineptitude I see on a daily basis.

 

[namedpipes]

Bump for Jose

 

[xtry51]

Bump for Jose

 

[Theory]

I really don't agree with those saying that because of these incidents we need to disband SWAT teams and the like. That's the kind of knee-jerk reactions that you get from the left side whenever a shooting happens. That whole "omg disband and disarm them because some tragic happened." That's not really a solution to anything.

 

[DrRansom]

I really don't agree with those saying that because of these incidents we need to disband SWAT teams and the like. That's the kind of knee-jerk reactions that you get from the left side whenever a shooting happens. That whole "omg disband and disarm them because some tragic happened." That's not really a solution to anything.

Welcome to NES. You're gonna have a tough time with this one.

 

[Dench]

I really don't agree with those saying that because of these incidents we need to disband SWAT teams and the like. That's the kind of knee-jerk reactions that you get from the left side whenever a shooting happens. That whole "omg disband and disarm them because some tragic happened." That's not really a solution to anything.

what are SWAT teams needed for in the first place?

 

[Theory]

what are SWAT teams needed for in the first place?

The same thing they've always been needed for.. barricaded subjects/hostages, riot control and other high-risk situations. I agree that something needs to change, but I think that change should come in the form better training, different standard operating procedures, and better intelligence before action. Its a problem that needs to be solved from within the LE community and unless people who care decide to enact change, then these types of incidents will continue to happen.

 

[exo]

The same thing they've always been needed for..

We've had formalized police forces a lot longer than we've had SWAT.

change should come in the form better training

Oh yeah, isn't that the standard line after a cop shoots somebody's dog/child/husband?

different standard operating procedures

"within departmental policy" is usually the standard answer too.

and better intelligence before action.

You mean like not acting on the "intel" from drug users / dealers? People who are often paid or coerced into saying what the police want to hear? Or do you mean things like I dunno, checking that they have the correct address before storming in on an old lady?

Its a problem that needs to be solved from within the LE community

These problems have been going on WAY too long now. It seems pretty clear that the "LE community" isn't going to change a damn thing.

 

[Theory]

We've had formalized police forces a lot longer than we've had SWAT.

Oh yeah, isn't that the standard line after a cop shoots somebody's dog/child/husband?

"within departmental policy" is usually the standard answer too.

You mean like not acting on the "intel" from drug users / dealers? People who are often paid or coerced into saying what the police want to hear? Or do you mean things like I dunno, checking that they have the correct address before storming in on an old lady?

These problems have been going on WAY too long now. It seems pretty clear that the "LE community" isn't going to change a damn thing.

I agree that it all seems like cookie cutter arguments and solutions, but obviously something needs to be done, and that starts with the people directly involved with the root of the problem. That might not ever happen honestly though because our society is slowly eroding away.

 

[Dench]

The same thing they've always been needed for.. barricaded subjects/hostages, riot control and other high-risk situations. I agree that something needs to change, but I think that change should come in the form better training, different standard operating procedures, and better intelligence before action. Its a problem that needs to be solved from within the LE community and unless people who care decide to enact change, then these types of incidents will continue to happen.

People like you are the problem. You justify a light infantry force to be used by civilian police, make excuses for mistakes and then blame training.

Mysteriously, the hundreds of years prior without SWAT teams seemed to work out just fine.

 

[Theory]

People like you are the problem. You justify a light infantry force to be used by civilian police, make excuses for mistakes and then blame training.

Mysteriously, the hundreds of years prior without SWAT teams seemed to work out just fine.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, those involved need to be held accountable obviously. My point is that a lot of our system is broken, and things like SWAT teams that were put in place for a good purpose and have a history of being effective and safe shouldn't just be ruled out and branded evil when some bad shit happens. This country needs people who are capable of rational and logical thoughts, and who are willing to discuss issues before making extreme statements about them.

 

[MichaelJR]

what are SWAT teams needed for in the first place?

Needed for? In Jose's case, they would have made great target practice, other than that they seem useless (got along fine without them prior to the militarization of the PDs). Wish he got the drop on them, there would be 8 less murdering jack booted thugs terrorizing American citizens.

I'm still waiting for the news of some retribution for this. I hope his family and friends don't forget the names of those murdering S.O.B.s and the commanding POS that did that to him.

 

[bullseye]

Barricaded people in homes eventually run out of three things essential to basic living, booze, food and toilet paper, eventually they need to come out and go get them. That's called good police work when you nab them on their way to one of the three stores. If you really want them out, you don't need light infantry dressed up as local yocals, just roll a m109 up to the house and count to three, most folks will be out by two.

 

[HTRN]

I agree that it all seems like cookie cutter arguments and solutions, but obviously something needs to be done, and that starts with the people directly involved with the root of the problem. That might not ever happen honestly though because our society is slowly eroding away.

The root of the problem is "the war on drugs" and federal grants.

Let's end the stupid war(s) on [everything] and then we can return our PDs to what they should be.

Honestly, I am over simplifying it and we need to get back to the society where there is individual responsibility and accountability, but that runs directly afoul with our new warm and safey idea as to what government should be for the individual.

 

[xtry51]

People like you are the problem. You justify a light infantry force to be used by civilian police, make excuses for mistakes and then blame training.

Mysteriously, the hundreds of years prior without SWAT teams seemed to work out just fine.

This.

You're reasoning (hostages, barricades, etc) is completely meaningless when you realize SWAT teams haven't existed for very long, yet police still managed to deal with these situations.

There is zero need for SWAT. The world was not anarchy before SWAT and it wouldn't be if SWAT were disbanded entirely.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not making excuses for anyone, those involved need to be held accountable obviously. My point is that a lot of our system is broken, and things like SWAT teams that were put in place for a good purpose and have a history of being effective and safe shouldn't just be ruled out and branded evil when some bad shit happens. This country needs people who are capable of rational and logical thoughts, and who are willing to discuss issues before making extreme statements about them.

Really? Give me some good examples that don't involve someone growing a plant.

 

[MassMark]

SWAT teams serve little more than a deadly excuse for lax police work...They have become efficient at executing a no-knock search warrant, then executing whomever, or whatever is on the other side of the door - right address, wrong address, dangerous suspect, innocent victim. Just ask Jose...Oh, wait - you can't, he was served...Sixty times...

 

[Dench]

Really? Give me some good examples that don't involve someone growing a plant.

Oh no problem:

1: that movie theater shooting where they showed up 30 mins later
2: that school shooting where they showed up 30 mins later



sounds effective.


They are also good at taking an hour or so at showing up to the Burlington Mall to fight umbrellas.

 

[Theory]

Holy crap, I didn't mean for my posts to become a debate on the merits of SWAT teams, even though admittedly that.s what I started doing. All I'm trying to say is that sweeping generalizations and knee-jerk reactions don't really solve anything. That should be especially obvious with everything going on right now in our country. I believe that there is a need for SWAT teams, and I also believe that Jose's situation was handled incorrectly. But that doesn't make them inherently bad.

 

[MassMark]

Holy crap, I didn't mean for my posts to become a debate on the merits of SWAT teams, even though admittedly that.s what I started doing. All I'm trying to say is that sweeping generalizations and knee-jerk reactions don't really solve anything. That should be especially obvious with everything going on right now in our country. I believe that there is a need for SWAT teams, and I also believe that Jose's situation was handled incorrectly. But that doesn't make them inherently bad.

That's exactly what it does...

 

[Dench]

Holy crap, I didn't mean for my posts to become a debate on the merits of SWAT teams, even though admittedly that.s what I started doing. All I'm trying to say is that sweeping generalizations and knee-jerk reactions don't really solve anything. That should be especially obvious with everything going on right now in our country. I believe that there is a need for SWAT teams, and I also believe that Jose's situation was handled incorrectly. But that doesn't make them inherently bad.

you dont get it. from start to finish, you dont get it. The police are not the army. the police should not be trained like combat infantry. the police should not have gear like our military. when you get gear and training like the military, you act like the military. you shoot 1st, ask questions later and treat citizens who are under the protection of the constitution like they are enemy combatants.

almost every time, with VERY few exceptions, in active shooter scenarios, the SWAT team never shows up in time, either.

 

[Bill Katt]

Holy crap, I didn't mean for my posts to become a debate on the merits of SWAT teams, even though admittedly that.s what I started doing. All I'm trying to say is that sweeping generalizations and knee-jerk reactions don't really solve anything. That should be especially obvious with everything going on right now in our country. I believe that there is a need for SWAT teams, and I also believe that Jose's situation was handled incorrectly. But that doesn't make them inherently bad.

It does make them inherently bad when there's NO accountability for there 'mistakes'. Oh ya...that's right...the 'internal investigations' take care of that.

 

[EddieCoyle]

SWAT teams that were put in place for a good purpose and have a history of being effective and safe

Name me 10 good examples in the last 10 years when a SWAT team was 'needed' in Mass.

No-knock drug raids do not count as 'good' examples.

How much has it cost to hire, train, and equip all of those teams over that time? Is it worth it? Your 'solution' seems to be to spend even more money on them. That sounds familiar.

 

[Kevlar]

All I'm trying to say is that sweeping generalizations and knee-jerk reactions don't really solve anything.

When there are this many incidents, it's no longer a "generalization" or "knee-jerk reaction"...

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

 

[namedpipes]

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[namedpipes]

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[Timber]

The same thing they've always been needed for.. barricaded subjects/hostages

Correct. Barricaded subjects / hostage situations.

Jose was asleep in his home with his family after working a 3rd shift job in a mine. Remind me again about the barricade and hostages...

 

[SteelShooter]

When there are this many incidents, it's no longer a "generalization" or "knee-jerk reaction"...

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

Well, that's not too bad.