ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers

[teamRR]

Government, by its nature, seeks to control. Everything identified as a possible venue for exerting control is exploited eventually.
Ammonium Nitrate Security Program | CISA

Authoritarianism rules the day. I can't imagine why Democrats--and probably Republicans--eventually would not call for strict regulation of CNC mills and/or 3D printers. They'll say it's for the greater good. Regulation moves upstream, so the next thing upstream from that would be imposing a licensing scheme whereby one must be licensed to purchase a mill or 3D printer.

Sure but it's gonna be awhile before we get there and it is probably gonna require actual law.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

It’s obvious they want to go after uppers, BCG, LPKs etc.

They'll call it closing the upper receiver loophole wherein they will bray incessantly about the horror of something already called a "receiver" _not_ being regulated. Then they will bleat about the deadly parts loophole. It's what they do.

 

[teamRR]

As its been stated previously.....the problem isnt the inanimate object but rather the problem is the repeat offender that experiences the revolving door of our justice system.

One thing that has always surprised me is how joe/sally smith never gets around to demanding that violent repeat offenders be kept in prison because they have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to be law abiding citizens.

Yes and it's funny, I read something recently on this - the max sentence for felon in possession of a gun in CA is 3 years, where in Texas its 10. The states that are hard on guns tend to be soft on crime and illegal possession of them.

 

[cathouse01]

What you're not getting is that they've provided themselves a broad enough definition such that ONLY the MOST RESTRICTIVE conditions will be applied.

They said point blank in example 2 in final rule that there can be no pilot holes, indexing/etc, otherwise its a reciever that has to be serialized

Thats how rules work

We’ll just have to see how they actually try to implement it. My read is really only related to 80% AR lowers, since that is what I am actually familiar with. The 80% lowers I have have no pilot holes or indexing marks for the FCG, the trigger pins and the safety selector, all key components of making a hunk of aluminum a receiver. You need to use a jig or a CNC mill to get all of those positioned correctly. Since they don’t have pilot holes, indexing/etc they SHOULD be covered by example 4. But they have certainly proven in the past that they don’t have to be faithful to their own rules.

ETA Here are some pics to see where I’m coming from (original pictures from https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-“80”-or-“unfinished”-receivers-illegal )

 

[MGnoob]

Matt Larosiere probably will have a good analysis.

This guy sums it up perfectly. Joke is the ATF is the easiest agency to deal with… all my shits 50-60 years old….. They’re just f***ing the next generation.

I’m pretty sure I’m gonna bring my guns out over this. Then I’m gonna go to court

 

[JRT]

In reading the proposal it seems only packaged kits with all of the parts included are subject to the reclassification. P80 receivers are off the table and are not affected as far as I can tell.

 

[MGnoob]

They’re trying to outlaw guns in America good luck with that work creative bunch

 

[AHM]

Closing from Kevin D. Wiliamson’s article today in National Review:

If prior offenders make up 90 percent of our murderers, and “ghost guns” are involved in less than 1 percent of our murders, why are we concentrating on the “ghost guns” rather than on the murderers?​

The tripartite answer is politics, theater, and cowardice.​

Sure, but ultimately more lawlessness really only serves to benefit the civilian disarmament cause.

 

[MGnoob]

The level of retarded is beyond belief.
They are just Making it illegal something that anybody could do in their basement…

You could log on to Amazon or go to Home Depot and be way bigger of problems than some fake ghost gun with no numbers…

The ATF is never actually gonna enforce this.

I’m going to need all your vote so I could be the head of the ATF.. If a republican wins I swear to God I take over the ATF and figure out the entire problem about three seconds

 

[Dench]

Thomas appears to be not long for the bench, and SCOTUS has not exactly been a bulwark against the firearm prohibition lobby as it is. Given that and that the civilian disarmament horde has at least 1.5 of the two main political parties, the law enforcement lobby, the media, the education lobby, the entertainment industry, and thus the youth, and the vast majority of firearm owners (fudds), things are not looking great for the future of firearm ownership. Having a regulatory agency that can reinterpret law as it sees fit and issue writs that effectively are laws is no victory either. That only will get worse.

Republicans can pass all the repeals of carry restrictions they want in the states, along with meaningless 2A sanctuary resolutions. People can brag on the Internet about being able to print lowers, but If people can't even legally possess firearms--at all--without government approval, like everyone in MA who is not a state apparatchik, then firearm ownership is not making gains.

The only "good" thing that has happaned for the 2A in quite some time is the Invasion of Ukraine. Finally an event fresh in everyones memory where civilians and militia fought a powerful foe.

Yes and it's funny, I read something recently on this - the max sentence for felon in possession of a gun in CA is 3 years, where in Texas its 10. The states that are hard on guns tend to be soft on crime and illegal possession of them.

10 years for simply possessing a firearm while a felon (and not doing anything else) is insane.

 

[1903Collector]

Dammit, I was gonna post all my routers in the classifieds!....I know what I have!

 

[teamRR]

The only "good" thing that has happaned for the 2A in quite some time is the Invasion of Ukraine. Finally an event fresh in everyones memory where civilians and militia fought a powerful foe.

10 years for simply possessing a firearm while a felon (and not doing anything else) is insane.

It would be but max is just that, usually reserved for say the person with a record of 2x armed robbery who later is caught with a gun again. There is probably parole too. So likely 10 years has never actually been served. In NH you could do 7.

Now in CA though, with a max of 3 I bet some obviously violent folks end up back on the street pointing guns at people again in 6 months.

 

[rali]

There is definitely a change to moving PMFs around. If you give your gun to a dealer or gunsmith, they are required to serialize it and report it to ATF before giving it back.

It's tough to say without getting deep into the vague wording.

I can’t bear the thought of going back into that 364 page shit show, but in my initial read, there’s a specific exemption to allow work on a PMF by a licensee WITHOUT having to serialize if IFF it’s going back to the person who brought it in for work. I think it said “single day” which, I guess means it doesn’t have to go in/out of the BB?

 

[Dench]

Now in CA though, with a max of 3 I bet some obviously violent folks end up back on the street pointing guns at people again in 6 months.

Heres the problem though. Simple possession is not the same as aiming guns at people on the street. We're not talking about the same thing.

 

[cathouse01]

I can’t bear the thought of going back into that 364 page shit show, but in my initial read, there’s a specific exemption to allow work on a PMF by a licensee WITHOUT having to serialize if IFF it’s going back to the person who brought it in for work. I think it said “single day” which, I guess means it doesn’t have to go in/out of the BB?

Yes, you are correct. There is an exception for same day service:

(i) Privately made firearms. Except for adjustment or repair of a firearm that is returned to the person from whom it was received on the same day, licensees must record each receipt or other acquisition (including from a personal collection) and disposition (including to a personal collection) of a privately made firearm as required by this part. For purposes of this paragraph, the terms “receipt” and “acquisition” shall include same-day or on-the-spot placement of identifying markings unless another licensee is placing the markings for, and under the direct supervision of, the licensee who recorded the acquisition. In that case, the licensee placing the markings need not record an acquisition from the supervising licensee or disposition upon return. The serial number need not be immediately recorded if the firearm is being identified by the licensee, or under the licensee’s direct supervision with the licensee’s serial number, in accordance with §478.92(a)(2). Once the privately made firearm is so identified, the licensee shall update the record of acquisition entry with the serial number, including the license number prefix, and shall record its disposition in accordance with this section. In this part and part 447, where no manufacturer name has been identified on a privately made firearm (if privately made in the United States), the words “privately made firearm” (or abbreviation “PMF”) shall be recorded as the name of the manufacturer.

It is clarified in the comments:

Further, unlike the proposed rule, the final rule expressly allows licensed dealer-gunsmiths, manufacturers, and importers to conduct same-day adjustments or repairs of unmarked PMFs without marking them so long as they do not accept them into inventory overnight and they are returned to the person from whom they were received. If, however, the licensee has possession of the firearm from one day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition,” and then as a “disposition” in the A&D records upon return to the same customer. PMFs are thereby treated similarly to commercially produced firearms when same-day adjustments or repairs are conducted.

 

[quinnjalan]

they will redefine machine gun as "any firearm intended for rapid-fire at a rate greater than 1 shot per second"

So Jerry Miculek will have to get a tax stamp for his index finger!

 

[teamRR]

Heres the problem though. Simple possession is not the same as aiming guns at people on the street. We're not talking about the same thing.

I don't agree with the scope of who is prohibited, if I had it my way it'd be limited to people who got violent or committed a robbery *involving a weapon* - not dui, possession of stolen property, fraud, even drug related crimes, etc. But the spirit of it, I agree with - you are a dangerous person, no guns. And the people impacted know who they are and likely the penalties too.

 

[Dench]

I agree with - you are a dangerous person, no guns. And the people impacted know who they are and likely the penalties too.

If a person is so dangerous that they can't be trusted with a weapon should that person be free? Shouldnt they be in a mental institution?

 

[AHM]

10 years for simply possessing a firearm while a felon (and not doing anything else) is insane.

Why do you think a criminal is packing heat -
Tuesday night Bullseye league down at the clubhouse?

They're probably felons for crimes that would have had them
hung and buried in the prison yard 300 years ago.

Dammit, I was gonna post all my routers in the classifieds!....I know what I have!

Linux or VxWorks?

 

[1903Collector]

Why do you think a criminal is packing heat -
Tuesday night Bullseye league down at the clubhouse?

They're probably felons for crimes that would have had them
hung and buried in the prison yard 300 years ago.


Linux or VxWorks?

LOL, More like Bosch and Porter Cable with high capacity 1/2" collets

 

[Dench]

Why do you think a criminal is packing heat -
Tuesday night Bullseye league down at the clubhouse?

They're probably felons for crimes that would have had them
hung and buried in the prison yard 300 years ago.

There is no end to "felonies" that are 100% retarded and trivial crimes.

The US entered the territory long ago where "criminal" doesnt really mean a whole lot without breaking down ones charges.

 

[teamRR]

If a person is so dangerous that they can't be trusted with a weapon should that person be free? Shouldnt they be in a mental institution?

My answer is, I don't know.

I could see some bank robber potentially not being all that dangerous, they might be doing something wreckless but do so because they anticipate clean submission and haven't an ounce of violent tendency. But the concept of letting someone like that go back to gun ownership after conviction? At least for a long while. I don't know - they abused the hell out of that right for sure.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Regarding building from blanks, "possessed with" looks like a problem:

Example 1— Frame or receiver: A frame or receiver parts kit containing a partially complete or disassembled billet or blank of a frame or receiver that is sold, distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template is a frame or receiver, as a person with online instructions and common hand tools may readily complete or assemble the frame or receiver parts to function as a frame or receiver.

If one possesses a drilling jig, does that mean one cannot buy a blank--even from another source--since one would then "possess" one "with" the other?

Also, as Matt Larosiere noted regarding frames and receivers:

Example 2— Frame or receiver: A partially complete billet or blank of a frame or receiver with one or more template holes drilled or indexed in the correct location is a frame or receiver, as a person with common hand tools may readily complete the billet or blank to function as a frame or receiver.

Which holes are the "template holes"? One cannot just assume they are the fire control holes.

 

[Dench]

My answer is, I don't know.

I could see some bank robber potentially not being all that dangerous, they might be doing something wreckless but do so because they anticipate clean submission and haven't an ounce of violent tendency. But the concept of letting someone like that go back to gun ownership after conviction? At least for a long while. I don't know - they abused the hell out of that right for sure.

Hell, the ability to have the right restored would be a strong start. But since "keeping guns out of the hands of criminals" is literal gun control we have the situation like we see in MA, which is you get a DUI (a simple DUI, no damage, etc) and you're federally prohibited from touching a gun for the rest of your life.

 

[teamRR]

Regarding building from blanks, "possessed with" looks like a problem:

If one possesses a drilling jig, does that mean one cannot buy a blank--even from another source--since one would then "possess" one "with" the other?

Also, as Matt Larosiere noted regarding frames and receivers:

Which holes are the "template holes"? One cannot just assume they are the fire control holes.

I think they wanted to say "exists" but tried to define what that means more precisely.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

They are too labor-intensive for them.

80% are not labor-intensive if you are not planning to shoot it. I've browsed 80% subs on Reddit: the number of people unable to make these guns properly is astounding!

 

[teamRR]

Hell, the ability to have the right restored would be a strong start. But since "keeping guns out of the hands of criminals" is literal gun control we have the situation like we see in MA, which is you get a DUI (a simple DUI, no damage, etc) and you're federally prohibited from touching a gun for the rest of your life.

That I don't agree with like I stated initially. I think really those circumstances should be reserved for committing crime aided by an actual weapon (not operating something to get from point A to B that could be used as a weapon).

And yes especially for that shit there ought to be relief. People in other states can do prison time for significant crime and after some period of time have their rights restored.

 

[cathouse01]

Regarding building from blanks, "possessed with" looks like a problem:

If one possesses a drilling jig, does that mean one cannot buy a blank--even from another source--since one would then "possess" one "with" the other?

Also, as Matt Larosiere noted regarding frames and receivers:

Which holes are the "template holes"? One cannot just assume they are the fire control holes.

See my post #192 it has a pic from the ATF that indicates that they are the holes for the selector, the trigger pin and the hammer pin and you have to have a completely solid fire control cavity.

ETA Not to mention that the FCG cavity can not be “indexed” in any way, meaning that in a polymer 80% lower the FCG can’t be made of a different color material. That was tried by EP Arms and the ATF didn’t allow it. From the letter:

Unlike “castings” or “blanks” which are formed as a single piece so that a fire control cavity has not been made, EP Arms uses the biscuit specifically to create that fire-control cavity during the injection molding process. As described in your letter, it appears that the sole purpose of the “biscuit” is to differentiate the fire-control area from the rest of the receiver and thus facilitate the process of making the receiver into a functioning firearm. ATF has long held that “indexing” of the fire control area is sufficient to require classification as a firearm receiver. Based upon EP Arms manufacturing process, it is clear that the “biscuit” serves to index the entire fire-control cavity. In fact, the biscuit is meant to differentiate the fire control cavity from the rest of the firearm so that it may easily be identified and removed to create a functional firearm.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

I think they wanted to say "exists" but tried to define what that means more precisely.

Great, but that's not what they wrote. So when they kick in Joe Sixpack's door, put 25 rounds in his Shih Tzu, and drag him off to jail, he'll have to _hope_ his lawyer can convince a judge the ATF did not mean what it wrote.

 

[Mesatchornug]

They're probably felons for crimes that would have had them
hung and buried in the prison yard 300 years ago.

you know, or possessing an eagle's feather. same same

There is no end to "felonies" that are 100% retarded and trivial crimes.

The US entered the territory long ago where "criminal" doesnt really mean a whole lot without breaking down ones charges.

My answer is, I don't know.

I could see some bank robber potentially not being all that dangerous, they might be doing something wreckless but do so because they anticipate clean submission and haven't an ounce of violent tendency. But the concept of letting someone like that go back to gun ownership after conviction? At least for a long while. I don't know - they abused the hell out of that right for sure.

I'm just going to link this here...
Amazon product ASIN 1594035229View: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229


@Dench knows where this is going, but lets remember that there are countless "felonies" that no one would ever think of as such.