ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers

[KBCraig]

LOL, More like Bosch and Porter Cable with high capacity 1/2" collets

No one needs a spindle that turns 25,000 RPM!

 

[KBCraig]

See my post #192 it has a pic from the ATF that indicates that they are the holes for the selector, the trigger pin and the hammer pin and you have to have a completely solid fire control cavity.

ETA Not to mention that the FCG cavity can not be “indexed” in any way, meaning that in a polymer 80% lower the FCG can’t be made of a different color material. That was tried by EP Arms and the ATF didn’t allow it. From the letter:

I don't think the rule can really say that no indexing is allowed. Indexing doesn't have to mean a dimple where the hole is to be drilled; indexing could mean the blank and the jig are designed to line up in a way that makes all the operations line up correctly.

I've seen ATF refer to dimples or markings. Well, that's easy enough: instead of a dimple, make a bump. The jig can align on those, which will be removed while drilling.

 

[KBCraig]

I dont think the rule is going to survive intact/without major portions being stuck down by courts......but its going to take time, money and lots of billed hours to lawyers and ruined lives to get there......

The technology will evolve faster than the rules or the courts.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

I think Ghost Gunner is staying very quiet on this one. Their solution is not covered by this "Proclamation". Time to order up a Ghost Gunner machine and the blanks.

 

[rali]

Unless something has changed recently, that's already the standard for gunsmiths. Overnight? BB. Same day? No BB.

Sure, but I wouldn’t have put it past the atf to say “doesn’t matter; if it comes in the door, you must serialize it.” That they are treating PMFs the same as any other work seems … significant, I guess

 

[jasons]

Plenty of [STRIKE]80%s[/STRIKE][BOLD]drop guns[/BOLD] show up at crime scenes

FIFY

 

[DispositionMatrix]

One result will be FFLs not allowing unserialized receivers into their shops. Another will be, for example, individual AK builders not knowing whether the legal act of possessing blanks for future builds could potentially be rewarded with state-sanctioned canine shoots in their foyers and prison time. Simply possessing a drilling jig and purchasing a blank--also not illegal--probably would be worse.

Every time a potential builder backs away from that line simply to avoid the possibility of being hassled for not doing anything illegal, the ATF has won. And it's important to note that intimidating people into not doing legal things the authorities don't like--self-regulation--is the entire point of this nonsense.

 

[amm5061]

No one needs a spindle that turns 25,000 RPM!

Does that mean I have to register all my routers as machine guns now?

 

[teamRR]

Does that mean I have to register all my routers as machine guns now?

Only if they have a forward grip or a stock, otherwise they are a pistol.

 

[snd1t]

Does that mean I have to register all my routers as machine guns now?

No, just your thumbs

 

[cathouse01]

Does that mean I have to register all my routers as machine guns now?

Only if they have a forward grip or a stock, otherwise they are a pistol.

And if it’s a compact, you have to SBR it.

 

[AHM]

One result will be FFLs not allowing unserialized receivers into their shops.

Especially FFLs who engrave serial numbers as a sideline...

 

[drgrant]

One result will be FFLs not allowing unserialized receivers into their shops.

Depends on the context of this "ruling". I dont think dealers as it is like touching 80% builds anyways at least as far as resale goes or standard inventory goes. At least the stereotypical
ones that dont have builder info on them and an SN.

The issue is a bit different for gunsmithing because you're not buying or selling the gun just working on it.

Of course it all depends on the inherent stupidity of the ruling. A P80 builder could inscribe 5318008 Smegma Industries" on every gun they make and
whats the FFL supposed to do, check if thats a legit manufacturer?

Theres a lot of aspects of this that are a dumb joke, not that we didnt already know that anyways.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

A P80 builder could inscribe 5318008 Smegma Industries" on every gun they make

Oh, this the funniest idea so far! It's funny enough for me to want to try building an 80%! Cape Gun Works puts on these build workshops I think I am going to try it just so could get that SN and manufacturer engraved on it !!!! It also helps I live less than 5 minutes from them.

 

[AHM]

Hat tip: Instapundit reader papertiger0

 

[APFSDS]

From 80% arms' website, it looks like--at least eventually--AR-15 uppers will be serialized and require a background check. From their reading, pistol slides are safe. Also according to them, all 80% lowers (jig or not) would require a background check and a serial #. It's crazy that "regulations" like this need to be deciphered by a legal team for anyone to understand them.

ATF Final Ruling 2021R-05F | Complete Breakdown

 

[xtry51]

It's a shitshow of unknown at this point. The ATF isn't going to give any clarity until it goes into effect because they won't want to give more meat to the lawsuits that are unfolding.

 

[teamRR]

From 80% arms' website, it looks like--at least eventually--AR-15 uppers will be serialized and require a background check. From their reading, pistol slides are safe. Also according to them, all 80% lowers (jig or not) would require a background check and a serial #. It's crazy that "regulations" like this need to be deciphered by a legal team for anyone to understand them.

ATF Final Ruling 2021R-05F | Complete Breakdown

I read that, not sure I believe it as far as the upper part - seems like knowledgeable sources say exactly otherwise.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

I read that, not sure I believe it as far as the upper part - seems like knowledgeable sources say exactly otherwise.

I would have to see it in the doc and have not so far.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...frame-or-receiver-and-identification/download

 

[jasons]

I read that, not sure I believe it as far as the upper part - seems like knowledgeable sources say exactly otherwise.

The only “knowledgeable sources” are the hacks making these new rules and they’re going to push them as far as they can. This is like gun laws in MA: they make them purposely convoluted and confusing so that they can use them however they want. In the rare case that they get a judge that pushes back they just dismiss the case and move onto the next sucker.

 

[42!]

Lots of talk and something they can put out before the mid-terms, but very little substance if you dig into the actual documents.

Looks like they want home made guns to get serial numbers. Maybe just if they ever touch an FFL, maybe required of the maker. This is the biggest part.

They might redefine the percent complete, but it sounds more like they will stay with the 80% but call it a firearm if it's part of a kit. So an AR80% WITH a jig is a firearm, but without it is not. And an AK80% that is folded (just needs the holes drilled), or one sold with a jig, is a firearm. But a flat by itself isn't. The the whole thing is just more confusing BS.

They want new split receiver designs to call both halves a firearm, but because the AR platform is so common, anything that already exists will not be redefined, even if newly manufactured. So a little future impact but it won't affect the AR platform or any other existing split receiver guns.

I will note a little flash of light. Their own publication mentions the large numbers and common use of the AR. This will bite them in the ass when they try to ban ARs. That whole firearms in common use thing.

So there will be lots of talk and fear mongering. Instead focus on the serial number thing.
If its just when it passes through an FFL I wouldn't worry so much. Lets face it, if you are making a gun at home and later sell it to someone else, I doubt it's going through an FFL anyway.
But if they require the home builder to serialize it that's another story. The response to that should be everyone going to Home Depot getting what they need to put together 100 slamfire shotguns and then the entire country submitting them for serial numbers on the same day. That should get the message across as to how pointless that rule would be.

 

[42!]

The rule as written eliminates sale of unserialized 80% uppers in the previously provided "Example 2" which clearly states the presence of a pilot hole or indexing mark = requirement to serialize/treat as a firearm for purposes of transfer/sale

Welcome to the age of the 0% lower

I like some of your comments on this, but details matter.

This is still proposed rule not final rule and there is a lot of vague-ness in it.

It specifically says a 0% (block of aluminum) would not be a firearm, so that would be the fear mongering I was talking about.

What 80% is or isn't a firearm, and nothing they say seems to indicate they will be changing what an 80% is, is based on whether or not a specialized tool, a "jig", is required and if that jig is part of a kit that also includes the 80%. So an 80% AR sold all by itself, would still not be a firearm. Other designs in there 80% form will work out differently. Since a bent 80% AK only requires a drill, no specialized tool, to complete, that makes it a firearm all by itself. Bua a flat 80%AK, would require a specialized tool so it's only a firearm if sold with that tool.

I think this is all BS designed so they can say they are doing something when even they know, it's meaningless. The sheep will believe they delivered on their promise and continue to support old Joe. The media whores on the right will try to make it sound like the world is coming to the end, when even they know there is nothing to it, just so they can be the center of attention and get your support (money). And there won't be a court challenge because they aren't stopping you from buying anything, you just can't buy it in a kit.

The requiring a serial on a home build, that's a real issue.

 

[teamRR]

I would have to see it in the doc and have not so far.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...frame-or-receiver-and-identification/download

Look around page 330, defines specifically the reciever of an AR is the lower.

 

[JRLB]

The threshold clearly enumerated in the final rule that was released the other day by the ATF clearly stated that ANY pilot hole/index mark = requirement for serialization and treat as firearm for purposes of sale/xfer to private individual

Once that goes into effect....and it WILL go into effect....the only option for an individual to make their own PMF without being required to go through the above/4473 charades to use a 0% lower/blank that has NO pilot holes or index marks.

The link to the rule has been posted a bunch of times, go read it starting at about page 290

There are plenty of 80% AR lowers that don’t have pilot or index marks.

 

[teamRR]

Lots of talk and something they can put out before the mid-terms, but very little substance if you dig into the actual documents.

Looks like they want home made guns to get serial numbers. Maybe just if they ever touch an FFL, maybe required of the maker. This is the biggest part.

They might redefine the percent complete, but it sounds more like they will stay with the 80% but call it a firearm if it's part of a kit. So an AR80% WITH a jig is a firearm, but without it is not. And an AK80% that is folded (just needs the holes drilled), or one sold with a jig, is a firearm. But a flat by itself isn't. The the whole thing is just more confusing BS.

They want new split receiver designs to call both halves a firearm, but because the AR platform is so common, anything that already exists will not be redefined, even if newly manufactured. So a little future impact but it won't affect the AR platform or any other existing split receiver guns.

I will note a little flash of light. Their own publication mentions the large numbers and common use of the AR. This will bite them in the ass when they try to ban ARs. That whole firearms in common use thing.

So there will be lots of talk and fear mongering. Instead focus on the serial number thing.
If its just when it passes through an FFL I wouldn't worry so much. Lets face it, if you are making a gun at home and later sell it to someone else, I doubt it's going through an FFL anyway.
But if they require the home builder to serialize it that's another story. The response to that should be everyone going to Home Depot getting what they need to put together 100 slamfire shotguns and then the entire country submitting them for serial numbers on the same day. That should get the message across as to how pointless that rule would be.

I agree - it's all about making sure they have a record of serial numbers, forcing 80% stuff through FFLs to accomplish such (which kills the market sorta, except one detail I'm not posting here).

But I think there is a compelling reason why they didn't just come out of the gate stating all privately held PMFs needed to use some process for serialization, wasn't even suggested. My belief is that is no coincidence and it's because it violates something they can't just re-write, maybe some earlier part of the Brady law (a literal law not an ATF interpretation) around firearms made privately.

 

[cathouse01]

Which of these 80%'s have neither pilot holes or "indexing marks"?

Look at the ATF’s own documentation. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-“80”-or-“unfinished”-receivers-illegal


Then read example 4 in the published rule.

None of the 80% lowers in your sample have holes or dimples for the selector, trigger or hammer pins and all have a solid, non-index FCG cavity. So I would say all the lowers you show are good to go.
They will have trouble going back on what they previously have said.

We can argue about this all we want, the facts will be in how they try to enforce it.

 

[cathouse01]

The old definition no longer matters....its chucked out the window by the new rule

And example 4 is null and void in the precence of example 2 which clearly and unequivocably states that ANY pilot hole or indexing mark = gun

You can argue all you want but the simple fact of the matter is that the ATF is going to charge a manufacturer with a series of felonies if they sell ANY unserialized lower that has a pilot hole/indexing mark.

Thats how this works....always has and always will

Well, if you want to go to that extreme you can say that a block of aluminum with the take down holes drilled in it is index. If that’s going to be the case, I’m not sure why they would have even bothered to include example 4.

Again, I’m going to wait and see. Until then I’m not going with the 30% price hikes that some of the 80% manufacturers are doing to take advantage of the fear mongering.

 

[cathouse01]

Great Letter to the Editor in the Los Angeles Times by Michael S. Klein of Los Angeles. Gets to the real core of this legislation by executive order.

To the editor: What nobody seems to realize is that whether one supports the regulation of ghost guns or not, the increasing use of government by executive order is neither healthy for the country, democratic, nor in compliance with the intent or substance of our governing documents. ("Biden targets 'ghost gun' violence with new federal rule," April 11)

And perhaps most important, precedent is established and each succeeding administration is more inclined to use executive orders instead of the messy but inclusive and democratic process of legislative enactment.

As a people, we shade more and more toward dictatorial power — and nobody seems to notice or object to the progression, particularly when they like the result. But just wait for the next administration, which will use the same power for different results.

Those who remained silent for executive orders they liked will rue the day that they sat in silence.

 

[xtry51]

The semi retard arguments going on here are the intentional point of this rule change. They are making it confusing because they want to paralyze gun businesses through fear of prosecution.

This entire stunt is intended to cause confusion and make the court process drag out.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Look around page 330, defines specifically the reciever of an AR is the lower.

My reply was in reference to the claim it also would be the upper going forward. I have not yet seen anything in the doc stating the upper would become a regulated part.