ATF intends to reclassify and ban "armor piercing" ammo including M855

[slugworth]

Isn't this just like the "black talon" ammo they banned???

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Is that an individualized one time use coupon? I can't find anything online for it.

Are you on their email list?? That's how you get it...

 

[afajvan]

Then ban it in pistols.

Yea, because criminals ALWAYS follow laws.

 

[Sig Sauer Shooter]

Dicks Sporting Goods announced a killer coupon sale to those on their email list on the 150 round green cardboard "ammo cans" of M855 all this week for $49.95 a box. I got the email Wednesday, picked up my two boxes on Thursday, and was at the register when I realized the coupon didn't start until Friday.

The manager let me use it a day early. Funny, they'll probably sell out at full price anyways. I wonder if that was the idea, knowing they might not be able to sell the inventory once a ban takes effect.

View attachment 128382

I forwarded that e-mail that i got also to one of the guys that I shoot trap with because they had cases of Gun Club for $54.90 a case and I knew his supply was low, he went up there and they told him that he was a day early but they honored it anyway......

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

regular .223/5.56 is going up fast to. SHITT. right after I book a vacation. well there goes any free money I had.

Where do you see that? The PPU m193 I purchased at .30 at round last week is still in stock and .30 a round this week.

 

[MrJones79]

regular .223/5.56 is going up fast to. SHITT. right after I book a vacation. well there goes any free money I had.

Where do you see that? The PPU m193 I purchased at .30 at round last week is still in stock and .30 a round this week.

Yeah still cheap everywhere I've seen M193 as well.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Yeah still cheap everywhere I've seen M193 as well.

Seriously, I swear we create our own "panic"

 

[MrJones79]

[video=youtube_share;6PaIIChRMBw]http://youtu.be/6PaIIChRMBw[/video]

So every time one of these rifle rounds falls under the handgun AP ban, we complain. What are the chances we could get the AP handgun ammo ban repealed with R majorities? (My guess is that the answer is "not a great chance" which gives me something of an indication of how valuable an R majority is). The truth is that handgun or rifle, an AP ammo ban is stupid.

The issue is that the legislation passed explicitly states that it is not intended to ban cartridges primarily intended for long gun use. So the language is in there to stop this crap, but the BATFE just chooses to ignore it.

 

[vicorjh]

The more important question is what will be done in the future?

This is a fine demonstration of incrementalism. This thread now has multiple posters entirely missing the point and debating specific effectiveness or economics of this round of bans without realizing that after this round is done, there will be a next and a next.

Agree,

"A .22 caliber projectile that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) will be considered to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile weighs 40 grains or less AND is loaded into a rimfire cartridge. "

"Except as provided in Category I (.22 caliber rimfire), projectiles that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition will be presumed to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile is loaded into a cartridge for which the only handgun that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade is a single shot handgun. ATF nevertheless retains the discretion to deny any application for a “sporting purposes” exemption if substantial evidence exists that the ammunition is not primarily intended for such purposes. The term “single shot handgun” means a break open or bolt action handgun that can accept only a single cartridge manually, and does not accept or use a magazine or other ammunition feeding device. The term does not include a pocket pistol or derringer type firearm."

Expect more bans if this is enacted. Apparently they claim they only have to "objectively" classify the intent (e.g. if available for use in a handgun) and "it may be reasonably inferred" the round is not primarily for sporting. You'll only have 22 rimfire available after they're done. Any evidence in their eyes is will be substantial evidence for a ban...

 

[bigblue]

[video=youtube_share;6PaIIChRMBw]http://youtu.be/6PaIIChRMBw[/video]

The issue is that the legislation passed explicitly states that it is not intended to ban cartridges primarily intended for long gun use. So the language is in there to stop this crap, but the BATFE just chooses to ignore it.

Of course the BATFE choose to ignore it! This is a political end run around our rights mandated by Obama as a de facto Executive Order. He couldn't get the votes he needed to pass gun control on the Hill so he uses .gov agencies to create gun control policies. It is blatantly unconstitutional and illegal on its face. M855 does not satisfy ANY of the AP law criteria. It just doesn't but now we have to fight it in court which will take years so they get a short term win, which is all they really wanted.

 

[browncoat]

Of course the BATFE choose to ignore it! This is a political end run around our rights mandated by Obama as a de facto Executive Order. He couldn't get the votes he needed to pass gun control on the Hill so he uses .gov agencies to create gun control policies. It is blatantly unconstitutional and illegal on its face. M855 does not satisfy ANY of the AP law criteria. It just doesn't but now we have to fight it in court which will take years so they get a short term win, which is all they really wanted.

The AP law is unconstitutional on its face. The whole point of laws like it is to give .fed a lever to ratchet down on firearms over time.

 

[bigblue]

The AP law is unconstitutional on its face. The whole point of laws like it is to give .fed a lever to ratchet down on firearms over time.

My hope with this is that the BATFE has over-stepped its bounds far enough for a good solid court battle to challenge the whole law.

 

[Mass-diver]

At the moment, I can't REP you again but.... This!

Seriously, xm855 / green tip seriously sucks. It's a lame round I wouldn't pay normal prices for. BUT, that's not the point. They have no business telling us we can't have it, and that's where our focus needs to be

I think this is a little bit of an overstatement. I run mostly m193,but I shoot inside 200yards, usually well inside, But, if I was shooting at longer ranges where m193 was unlikely to fragment, m855 would be my choice.

Of course, if you are talking about m855 versus fancy .80+/round match ammo than of course m855 sucks in comparison.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Expect more bans if this is enacted. Apparently they claim they only have to "objectively" classify the intent (e.g. if available for use in a handgun) and "it may be reasonably inferred" the round is not primarily for sporting. You'll only have 22 rimfire available after they're done. Any evidence in their eyes is will be substantial evidence for a ban...

How is that supposed to work?

Even with the "intent" test, BATFE can't just pick rounds at random to ban, the bullet construction still needs to meet the specific constraints in 18 USC §921(a)(17)(C) , either fully or core made 100% out of one of the 'exotic' metals, or FMJ and 25% of projectile weight is the jacket.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

I think this is a little bit of an overstatement. I run mostly m193,but I shoot inside 200yards, usually well inside, But, if I was shooting at longer ranges where m193 was unlikely to fragment, m855 would be my choice.

Of course, if you are talking about m855 versus fancy .80+/round match ammo than of course m855 sucks in comparison.

I don't personally see anything "fancy" about dedicated ammo designed to extend the reach of 5.56 ( ie heavier bullet weight "match" ammo) Given the fact that people are now spending MORE on 855 than "fancy" match ammo I don't think it's an understatement at all. I have a few thousand round of 855 I couldn't get for less than normal price and I'm still not interested. That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be banned and I will do everything I can to keep that from happening

 

[Mass-diver]

I don't personally see anything "fancy" about dedicated ammo designed to extend the reach of 5.56 ( ie heavier bullet weight "match" ammo) Given the fact that people are now spending MORE on 855 than "fancy" match ammo I don't think it's an understatement at all. I have a few thousand round of 855 I couldn't get for less than normal price and I'm still not interested. That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be banned and I will do everything I can to keep that from happening

Some of that pre-frag stuff runs north of $2/round - pretty fancy in my book, but maybe I just have simple tastes

 

[RImike]

Other than the comment period, what else can be done to stop this? Can congress de-fund the ATF? How about repealing/amending the AP ammo law?

 

[Beansie]

Where do you see that? The PPU m193 I purchased at .30 at round last week is still in stock and .30 a round this week.

Good. I am sitting on a little bit and basically going to reload for everything but the MINI. I didn't want to go drop $350+ at Shooters on Sunday, lol.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Time to ban 4-10 shotgun ammo... Somebody shot steel shot out of a judge.

Anyone else wonder if the ATF got the idea of doing this is because of all the butthurt 7N6 ban letters they got using 855 as an example?

 

[RImike]

Time to ban 4-10 shotgun ammo... Somebody shot steel shot out of a judge.

Anyone else wonder if the ATF got the idea of doing this is because of all the butthurt 7N6 ban letters they got using 855 as an example?

No, they did this because of the Sig brace butthurt

 

[Da_lucche]

I think this is a little bit of an overstatement. I run mostly m193,but I shoot inside 200yards, usually well inside, But, if I was shooting at longer ranges where m193 was unlikely to fragment, m855 would be my choice.

Of course, if you are talking about m855 versus fancy .80+/round match ammo than of course m855 sucks in comparison.

From a cost effectiveness perspective, using m855 for longer range makes sense but 75 or 77 gr (Sierra/Nosler) is what i would use for anything longer range 200+

 

[Mass-diver]

From a cost effectiveness perspective, using m855 for longer range makes sense but 75 or 77 gr (Sierra/Nosler) is what i would use for anything longer range 200+

Completely agree.

 

[Coyote33]

Don't waste time with market gyrations in response to regulatory abuse - let's address the regulatory abuse. Until you have contacted the ATF and your elected critters, there is nothing else to discuss on this matter. Then once you have done it, help others to do the same.

House
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/
Senate
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Is that an individualized one time use coupon? I can't find anything online for it.

Nothing from NRA, SAF, GOAL, NSSF, or anyone else on this yet?

just print this coupon and use it!

 

[bullseye]

Unintended consequences, ATF just put hundreds of millions of rounds of 855 into the hands of the people on this announcement and whatever is made going forward will be bought up ASAP.

 

[5months]

Is M855 not FMJ?
What percentage of the weight is the jacket?

re: post 136,
Went googling and found this reference from-
https://www.mycombatptsd.com/thread...mm-m855-illegal-to-manufacture-and-sell.3764/

[The two requirements to qualify as "AP" ammunition are clearly stated, however the M855 projectile clearly does not meet them.
The M855 projectile is a 62 grain lead core round with a steel portion between the apex of the copper jacket and the lead core. The copper jacket of the projectile makes up approximately 17% of the weight of the entire cartridge, a far cry from the stipulated 25%. The core is entirely made of lead with a comparable percentage of steel between the jacket and the core. ]

17%?
If true how why did M855 ever need the exemption?

 

[the_shootist]

A guy from another board is offering green tip for half price

 

[cekim]

re: post 136,
Went googling and found this reference from-
https://www.mycombatptsd.com/thread...mm-m855-illegal-to-manufacture-and-sell.3764/

[The two requirements to qualify as "AP" ammunition are clearly stated, however the M855 projectile clearly does not meet them.
The M855 projectile is a 62 grain lead core round with a steel portion between the apex of the copper jacket and the lead core. The copper jacket of the projectile makes up approximately 17% of the weight of the entire cartridge, a far cry from the stipulated 25%. The core is entirely made of lead with a comparable percentage of steel between the jacket and the core. ]

17%?
If true how why did M855 ever need the exemption?

This is what amazes me about how many people are responding "855 is overpriced anyway"...

This is an assertion of power to ban that is sufficiently arbitrary that it can eventually be applied to any rifle round for which a pistol can be constructed - which is all of them.

 

[browncoat]

re: post 136,
Went googling and found this reference from-
https://www.mycombatptsd.com/thread...mm-m855-illegal-to-manufacture-and-sell.3764/

[The two requirements to qualify as "AP" ammunition are clearly stated, however the M855 projectile clearly does not meet them.
The M855 projectile is a 62 grain lead core round with a steel portion between the apex of the copper jacket and the lead core. The copper jacket of the projectile makes up approximately 17% of the weight of the entire cartridge, a far cry from the stipulated 25%. The core is entirely made of lead with a comparable percentage of steel between the jacket and the core. ]

17%?
If true how why did M855 ever need the exemption?

So then the ATF is actually acting illegally. What a surprise.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I think BATFE is claiming that the metal penetrator tip is a "core constructed entirely from..." even though the penetrator is merely an insert, not the entire core. So yes, BATFE is acting illegally.

This is an assertion of power to ban that is sufficiently arbitrary that it can eventually be applied to any rifle round for which a pistol can be constructed - which is all of them.

I agree that it is arbitrary, but 18 U.S.C. 921(17)(B) only gives them leeway to ban cores or solid bullets made from tungsten, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, and depleted uranium as well as fully jacketed bullets with a heavy jacket. Maybe "most", but not "any".

 

[cekim]

I think BATFE is claiming that the metal penetrator tip is a "core constructed entirely from..." even though the penetrator is merely an insert, not the entire core. So yes, BATFE is acting illegally.


I agree that it is arbitrary, but 18 U.S.C. 921(17)(B) only gives them leeway to ban cores or solid bullets made from tungsten, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, and depleted uranium as well as fully jacketed bullets with a heavy jacket. Maybe "most", but not "any".

No argument - type it up and tell them that.

 

[NHCraigT]

Costs going up.

More XM855 here: http://www.ammunitionsupplycompany.com/Federal-Lake-City-5-56-NATO-XM855-Ammo-p/xm855c.htm?CartID=1