Who is they/them? The ATF or "the people"?
Great point. This grey area is where a lot of "stuff happens".
True. The gun isn't the criminal.
Yes. Ambiguity, selective enforcement, grey areas. THIS is how they keep you in check, if you let them.
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ATF Formally releases new proposed definition of "Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms
- Thread starter cathouse01
- Start date
AHM
NES Member
Hard to believe that there isn't one operating machine operator
on NES who disdains people that buy kits
instead of lovingly choosing each component,
like Granny Warren shopping for artisinal cheeses
at Cardullo's in Harvard Square.
Text in columnar or paragraphed format
with record fields strictly defined in a schema ("file description").
What the FFL could actually provide:
Their entire acquisition/disposition database extracted as a text file,
fed through a typographic fill filter
that packs the maximum number of words on a single line
(regardless of original record boundaries) as a monolithic giant paragraph,
and printed as a hardcopy on thermal-sensitive paper notorious for fading quickly.
with the old acid-wash technique,
because the pores in the underlying metal structure (![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
)
are not disturbed by the original engraving.
Bonus points for a method which,
when defaced and then acid-etched,
reveals a palimpsest saying...
on NES who disdains people that buy kits
instead of lovingly choosing each component,
like Granny Warren shopping for artisinal cheeses
at Cardullo's in Harvard Square.
What they think they're mandating:
Text in columnar or paragraphed format
with record fields strictly defined in a schema ("file description").
What the FFL could actually provide:
Their entire acquisition/disposition database extracted as a text file,
fed through a typographic fill filter
that packs the maximum number of words on a single line
(regardless of original record boundaries) as a monolithic giant paragraph,
and printed as a hardcopy on thermal-sensitive paper notorious for fading quickly.
Just don't infringe any of @Skysoldier's patents.
Holding out for a technique which doesn't dime you out
with the old acid-wash technique,
because the pores in the underlying metal structure (
)are not disturbed by the original engraving.
Bonus points for a method which,
when defaced and then acid-etched,
reveals a palimpsest saying...
I bet you thought that
this was going to be
a serial number.
The inference is that those 23k guns were made here. That is total BS. I happen to know a 'little' about illegal importation of goods. Those guns could have been made before serial numbers were mandated. They could have been made damn near anywhere in the world and be in Chicago in a matter of weeks if not days if you are really motivated. Heroin is pretty much only grown for profit in the West Asian (Afghanistan) area of the world. Guns could easily use the exact same methods that heroin uses to get to the US. Dammit, tried to get rid of the spammy graph and ended up posting in the quote
Justice Department Proposes Rule to Curb Spread of ‘Ghost Guns’
The agency wants to curb “ghost guns” in part because the firearms don’t bear the serial numbers used by law enforcement to track down criminals.www.wsj.com
“More than 23,000 firearms without serial numbers were recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes from 2016 through 2020, the Justice Department said.”
FBI executed 450,000 trace requests in 2019, 373,000 in 2015 and 1200-1500 per day in 2018. So let’s be conservative and say, 1000 trace request per day for 5 years, or 1.825 million trace requests. “Ghost Guns” account for <1% of crime gun trace requests 2016-2020. And those 23k “ghost guns” amount to 0.005% of guns in the US, or 5 in 100k guns.
Biden’s entire gun control platform is focused on symbolic gestures that will markedly infringe on the RKBA.
View attachment 480445
. Woot, got it out of the quoted reply.
KBCraig
NES Member
Comments on Proposed Rule 2021R-05 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Between May 21 and August 19, 2021, ATF received over 290,000 comments on the proposed rule, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms. ATF specifically requested comments on the feasibility of implementing the new definition of firearm “frame or receiver” in 27 CFR 478.11...
MaverickNH
NES Member
Good point. The UN small arm treaty explicitly avoided a requirement that China and Russia mark small arms with country of origin to gain their sign-on. Hundreds of millions of small arms bear no traceable markings, by design. “Ghost Guns” made by hobbyist felons? I think not...The inference is that those 23k guns were made here. That is total BS. I happen to know a 'little' about illegal importation of goods. Those guns could have been made before serial numbers were mandated. They could have been made damn near anywhere in the world and be in Chicago in a matter of weeks if not days if you are really motivated. Heroin is pretty much only grown for profit in the West Asian (Afghanistan) area of the world. Guns could easily use the exact same methods that heroin uses to get to the US. Dammit, tried to get rid of the spammy graph and ended up posting in the quote
xtry51
NES Member
Comments on Proposed Rule 2021R-05 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Between May 21 and August 19, 2021, ATF received over 290,000 comments on the proposed rule, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms. ATF specifically requested comments on the feasibility of implementing the new definition of firearm “frame or receiver” in 27 CFR 478.11...www.atf.gov
When you do that it brings you to regulations.gov. which is why I asked if anyone actually found and online link, because it's not posted on regulations.gov. I've searched.
cathouse01
NES Member
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- May 10, 2018
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I also have searched the entire site and actually looked at all the additions since May 5 (including the fascinating Drawbridge Operation Regulation: Rainy River, Rainy Lake and Their Tributaries, Rainier, MN) and could not find hide nor hair of ATF proposed rule 2021R-05, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2020
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If you read at the top of the PDF on ATF website, the document is just a version signed by AG and IS NOT the version that will be published in the Federal Register. In other words, this proposal has not been published yet so there is nothing to comment on yet.
Dennis in MA
NES Member
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- Feb 12, 2007
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- 33,254
Yeah. Nothing exists. So I wrote mine as a letter and I'm gonna fax it to them. Assuming their fax isn't tied up in knots over this. LOL
Holding out for a technique which doesn't dime you out
with the old acid-wash technique,
because the pores in the underlying metal structure (
are not disturbed by the original engraving.
Bonus points for a method which,
when defaced and then acid-etched,
reveals a palimpsest saying...
I bet you thought thatthis was going to bea serial number.
The etching technique works because the manufacturers stamp the numbers into the metal. This changes the structure and density of the metal in and around the numbers. Even when the numbers are machined off, the underlying density differences remain and can be revealed by etching.
Machining doesn't produce the same changes and would be invisible to the etching technique.
Thus, you stamp into an extra thick part of the frame "Neener, neener!" then machine it off. Now cut the serial number in. Assuming the original was stamped with enough force/deep enough, removing the incised serial number and etching would raise the stamped number instead. In this case "Neener, neener!".
cathouse01
NES Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2018
- Messages
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- 4,670
Which is interesting, because on their web page they specifically ask for feedback and give you the link to www.regulations.gov and right at the top they say:
Which would indicate that it should be available for comment if they are doing their jobs.
Whutmeworry
NES Member
Not unlike the totally undefined phrase "under your direct control" as was written into the MA firearm storage law.
xtry51
NES Member
You can keep posting the same stuff, thay doesn't change that if the rule proposal is not actually published officially in the system, your comments even if mailed cannot be recorded.
KBCraig
NES Member
I wouldn't assume that ATF has advanced technology like fax machines.
AHM
NES Member
I'd be worried about dialing the wrong number
and having the commentary end up
featured on Police Blotter Fax Friday.
Dennis in MA
NES Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
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- 33,254
They don't. It goes to a dead line. LOL. Imagine trying to comment on ANYTHING. "Sorry. We don't want your plebeian comments."
It's 2021. What are the odds the wrong # goes to ANOTHER fax machine??? 1 in 100,000??? I have one as an antique in my office. We use it about 4x a year for antique-level investment firms. (Or Cumberland Farms. If you want to roll out your 401(k), you have to fax it. FAX IT????)
AHM
NES Member
So you're saying if it Last Number Redials,
it'll go to CumFarms - not Howie Carr Show Enterprises.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Hardwired
NES Member
HorizontalHunter
NES Member
AHM
NES Member
Q-S-T!
A new era of relevance for our National Traffic System!
I see Public Service Honor Roll for everyone!
MaverickNH
NES Member
So, it seems we’re in the silent strategy period, where the Biden Administration and AFT craft their rules and Executive Orders, and SAF, GOA, NRA brainstorm their potential responses. IANAL, but have learned those filing a lawsuit must be directly harmed (have Standing, as they say) to engage. While there should be plenty "harmed" the best plaintiffs would need to be carefully selected.
Presumably, any suit would ask an injunction to prevent implementation of the rule/order, which may or may not be granted. If not granted, I’d assume the proceedings could be dragged out for years...
Presumably, any suit would ask an injunction to prevent implementation of the rule/order, which may or may not be granted. If not granted, I’d assume the proceedings could be dragged out for years...
AHM
NES Member
Holding out for a dark blue nylon windbreaker
with "AFT" on the back.
ETA:
It would almost be worth it for some other poor bastard
to get jacked up on Federal "impersonating an officer" charges,
just to get a pirated audio tape of the defense making their
"What kind of ignoramus thinks 'Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms'
is abbreviated 'AFT'?" statement;
to force the DA to have to retort "Biden*".
with "AFT" on the back.
ETA:
It would almost be worth it for some other poor bastard
to get jacked up on Federal "impersonating an officer" charges,
just to get a pirated audio tape of the defense making their
"What kind of ignoramus thinks 'Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms'
is abbreviated 'AFT'?" statement;
to force the DA to have to retort "Biden*".
Knob Creek
NES Member
I find it interesting that they use the term "Weapon" and not "Firearm". Weapon is generally a military term when describing a Firearm.
