At What Point Are you "Arrested"?

[FPrice]

This was posed in another thread and a mod suggested that it be taken to it's own thread.

The question as to when an arrest occurs. In the "Carrying in Car" thread, M1911 wrote this,
"
I know someone in MA who told the officer they were carrying, during a normal traffic stop. The officer called for back up, removed them from the car, proned them out, cuffed and stuffed them in the cruiser."

My comment was that the way I was taught and trained, this constitutes an arrest, but M1911 disagrees. In another post, he mentioned that his friend was released at the scene and sent on his way. Again, something that I was taught is forbidden.

So, was this person arrested?

So the question is, at what point are considered to be "under arrest"?

 

[FalArAk]

Doesn't sound like that guy was arrested at all because he wasn't read his rights.Sounds to me like the cops put him in the cruiser for thier own "safety".I believe the Polizi can "detain" you without arresting you if they think you are a threat to the donut supply,or whatever the hell they want.

Damn,the above scenario is BS!

 

[FPrice]

Damn,the above scenario is BS!

I agree, but the idea was not to criticize the scenario and actions so much as answer the question, at what point are you considered to be arrested.

 

[JonJ]

Doesn't sound like that guy was arrested at all because he wasn't read his rights.Sounds to me like the cops put him in the cruiser for thier own "safety".I believe the Polizi can "detain" you without arresting you if they think you are a threat to the donut supply,or whatever the hell they want.

Damn,the above scenario is BS!

Now that's a well thought out and educated response.

 

[FalArAk]

So is it SOP in MA for a LEO to detain a citizen if they are legally carrying a weapon during a stop ? Being a 911 dispacther in a former life,I know that a traffic stop is just about the most dangerous situation for an officer to be in due to the "unknown factor",but is detaining a "subject" who is carrying..is this an unwritten rule for MA LEO's ?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So is it SOP in MA for a LEO to detain a citizen if they are legally carrying a weapon during a stop ? Being a 911 dispacther in a former life,I know that a traffic stop is just about the most dangerous situation for an officer to be in due to the "unknown factor",but is detaining a "subject" who is carrying..is this an unwritten rule for MA LEO's ?

No - sometimes they say "You are exercising your rights as Americans to be armed. Here's a warning on the moving violation. Have a nice day."

 

[Arioch]

I'd been taught that the SJC had ruled that an "arrest" ocurs when the person stopped either cannot leave voluntarily, or believes that they cannot leave voluntarily.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'd been taught that the SJC had ruled that an "arrest" ocurs when the person stopped either cannot leave voluntarily, or believes that they cannot leave voluntarily.

If this was true, anyone who received a traffic ticket for a civil infraction would have an arrest record, since drivers are generally not free to leave until the ticket has been completed.

 

[FPrice]

So is it SOP in MA for a LEO to detain a citizen if they are legally carrying a weapon during a stop ?

I doubt that this was a typical stop.

 

[SnakeEye]

why would you offer up/admit to carrying if your licenced to carry concealed and you werent asked directly? especially in MA....
he wanted to brag and get attention, well he got it
the only reason a police officer would ask if he had any weapons or other contraband in the car is if he had probable cause to believe that he did in the first place or was in the act of commiting a crime at the time of the stop, which was not mentioned..
ive been pulled over my fair share of times and ive never been asked if i was carrying any weapoons. .

 

[daveInME]

So the question is, at what point are considered to be "under arrest"?

it is my understanding that your not under arrest until the LEO verbally tells you so.

in the scenario above the LEO handcuffed him and put him in the cruiser to make the scene safe while they investigated everything. Something about it made him fell unsafe.

In the EMS world I have called for PD backup while enroute to a call, or when I've arrived at a call, there are some addresses where our dept's SOP state we will not go within a 1/2 mile of the house without an LEO. because the person(s) are known to be nut cases. In these cases the LEO makes everyone other then the patient wait in another room / outside while we check out the patient. Sometimes the more roudy ones get handcuffed / put in the cruiser. It's to make a potentially unsafe spot more safe. When we leave the people are free to go about their business.

 

[Scrivener]

contraband in the car is if he had probable cause to believe that he did in the first place or was in the act of commiting a crime at the time of the stop, which was not mentioned..

Not true. I've been asked about weapons in the car when stopped simply for speeding. The officer simply did not want any surprises.

I told him I did have guns in the car - secured in the trunk, per statute. He didn't ask to see them (which would have escalated the stop), looked at my LTC and gave me a verbal warning.

Pretty amazing, as he was not terribly happy when he pulled me over!

 

[Len-2A Training]

The key message here is "answer any questions honestly, but do NOT offer information if not asked".

If the officer is given any reason to fear his safety, he is going to take whatever steps are necessary to secure the scene for his safety before everything gets sorted out. The courts have stated that this is an acceptable practice.

Whether or not you'll get cuffed and stuffed has a lot to do with your demeanor, how you respond and anything else that you do that puts the officer's mind at ease (assessed as no threat) vs. being assessed as a potential threat!

 

[matt1956]

My wife was stopped once in brockton by a state trooper, when he came up to the car, he asked for her lic and reg, then he asked, "do have any weapons, guns, knives, handgranades or anything illegal in the car?"

Now, my wife looks about as menacing as a new born kitten, so I'm guessing this was standard rutine question for the officer. but I've been stopped twice and never asked about weapons... and on one of those occations, I had a "cashe" of martial arts weapons in my truck (coming home from a test).

(now don't get me wrong about my wife, as sweet as she looks, she still scares the hell out of me and I wouldn't mess with her )

 

[sksguns]

My wife was stopped once in brockton by a state trooper, when he came up to the car, he asked for her lic and reg, then he asked, "do have any weapons, guns, knives, handgranades or anything illegal in the car?"

He forgot to ask her if the roof retracted and a 155 raised out of the trunk....

what was his issue....a handgrenade....lol

 

[rapture]

A few months ago, my Ins. Co.'s computer stated to the DMV that my car was uninsured, and the DMV promptly revoked my registration. I was unaware of this until while driving through Danvers, bringing my girlfriend home at 3am, a LEO decided to follow me and ran my plate. He pulled me over and told me he thought my reg. was expired and asked for my liscense and reg. When he came back, he told me my reg. was revoked and said he had to tow my car. He offered to give us a ride to a nearby resteraunt to call and arrange for transportation. At that point, I told him that before I stepped out of the vehicle, I wanted him to know that I had my Class A, and was currently carrying a firearm. I asked him if that was going to be a problem. He then yelled to his partner "Hey ***, he's got a gun. Is that a problem?" His partner laughed and said "No, no problem." He never even asked to see my liscense or where my firearm was, just let us get into the back of the cruiser and gave us a ride. When we got to the resteraunt, he let us out and jokingly said "whatever you do, please don't rob the place" laughed, and left. Out of all the times I've been stopeed, he was by far the friendliest LEO I have ever met, and it made everything smooth and comfortable for all of us.

 

[sksguns]

A few months ago, my Ins. Co.'s computer stated to the DMV that my car was uninsured, and the DMV promptly revoked my registration. I was unaware of this until while driving through Danvers, bringing my girlfriend home at 3am, a LEO decided to follow me and ran my plate. He pulled me over and told me he thought my reg. was expired and asked for my liscense and reg. When he came back, he told me my reg. was revoked and said he had to tow my car. He offered to give us a ride to a nearby resteraunt to call and arrange for transportation. At that point, I told him that before I stepped out of the vehicle, I wanted him to know that I had my Class A, and was currently carrying a firearm. I asked him if that was going to be a problem. He then yelled to his partner "Hey ***, he's got a gun. Is that a problem?" His partner laughed and said "No, no problem." He never even asked to see my liscense or where my firearm was, just let us get into the back of the cruiser and gave us a ride. When we got to the resteraunt, he let us out and jokingly said "whatever you do, please don't rob the place" laughed, and left. Out of all the times I've been stopeed, he was by far the friendliest LEO I have ever met, and it made everything smooth and comfortable for all of us.

It seems so across the board as to how the individual LEO's handle that situation. I'm not an LEO but I'm not sure I would have been THAT relaxed about it, but could it be possible they traced you to the reg. and then ran you for priors and since that came back negative they were less concerned?

I don't know.....But it's good you had a decent experience. Based on other posts here I wouldn't expect that kind of a response from every LEO.

Sorry about your reg. issue. I had that happen to me before....unarmed of course...lol

 

[TonyD]

Since the two topics seem to have merged, let's continue this discussion here:

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1111