Army is back at it in Pheonix...Urban Training, Black Helo's

[goodlife30]

Who said anything about controlling foreign cities? That's the point that you keep missing.

Lol. Ok whatever.

 

[xtry51]

Why would the military need to train over cities, Kabul, Kandahar, Jalabad.. Yes we all have issues with today's government. With the running lights on and the military admitting to training flights I think it is what it is training in an urban area. At the end of the day if you think you can control a city through the use of air power good luck with that. History shows otherwise.

Another fallacy. No city was ever controlled without boots on the ground. Berlin, fallujah, hue, and so on. Yes so leaving a city alone where an insurgency can fester and grow is a recipe for disaster. Ask the Germans how that worked out for them in eastern Russia.

I really don't get you points. Honestly history tells a very different tale than what your are presenting here.

I am glad you are not in charge of our military operations overseas. You went from no need for urban training for helos overseas to leveling cities with no regards to cultural significance. You want to create am insurgency bomb Mecca or level Mount Fuji in Japan and get back to me. If you think you can bomb a nation into submission you are wrong. History shows time and time again this is not the case. Even Japan which we nuked was occupied. Same with cities.

Really? So I guess they had no standing army when we showed up? Yes because the battleship Missouri was really just a pleasure craft. Seems if like the 7th fleet sails in you are invaded and occupied. Just saying

No you advocated leveling cities irregardless of collateral damage that was your position. Blasting away cultural icons creates an insurgency. I also stated that the Air Force and navy cannot bomb a city into submission. It needs to be occupied to control it. I answered this question several times already.

Read your posts and your history.

We don't need to control cities. Merely destroy the ability of said country to wage war. That does not require occupation. You do not need to invade countries to win a war. This is not WWI or WWII. We live in a completely different world than those wars and our abilities now allow us to wage effective war that will stop aggression on American soil without invasion. I only care about stopping war on our shores and punishing anyone country that would provide support for such an attack. What happens to the rest of the world after we stop attacks on our soil is not important to me.

 

[xtry51]

Who said anything about controlling foreign cities? That's the point that you keep missing.

He's really stuck on this one despite me clearly saying I never want to control a city, merely punish its inhabitants for supporting regimes that attack American soil.

 

[mav]

My position is simple: train as necessary, but keep .mil out of US cities and towns.

My last post on this is an example from history: why were Roman legions never allowed in Rome? It goes to the fear those in the Republic had that the military would be used to circumvent the political power of the republic. The point holds as well today, only it is the political power of the state and the constitutional rights of US citizens that are at stake.

 

[not new guy]

My position is simple: train as necessary, but keep .mil out of US cities and towns.

My last post on this is an example from history: why were Roman legions never allowed in Rome? It goes to the fear those in the Republic had that the military would be used to circumvent the political power of the republic. The point holds as well today, only it is the political power of the state and the constitutional rights of US citizens that are at stake.

Those damned tinfoily romans. James Madison was apparently big on wearing tinfoil helmets too.

 

[goodlife30]

He's really stuck on this one despite me clearly saying I never want to control a city, merely punish its inhabitants for supporting regimes that attack American soil.

Your clearly stuck on the point if you level a city without regards to collateral damage you will create more problems than you solve. That's my point that I have repeated over and over and over and over and over. Pretty simple. Read your history the answers are right here

 

[xtry51]

Your clearly stuck on the point if you level a city without regards to collateral damage you will create more problems than you solve. That's my point that I have repeated over and over and over and over and over. Pretty simple. Read your history the answers are right here

I disagree and so does History. Has Japan attacked us again after leveling two cities with Abombs? Has Germany ever attacked us again? Iraq? Afghanistan? Please tell me what countries have retaliated years later for previously losing a war they started and were subsequently bombed?

I'll wait here for all the examples.

 

[Hiltonizer]

Your clearly stuck on the point if you level a city without regards to collateral damage you will create more problems than you solve. That's my point that I have repeated over and over and over and over and over. Pretty simple. Read your history the answers are right here

Damn Japanese insurgents! If only we occupied like in the middle east where they love us.

 

[not new guy]

Your clearly stuck on the point if you level a city without regards to collateral damage you will create more problems than you solve. That's my point that I have repeated over and over and over and over and over. Pretty simple. Read your history the answers are right here

How exactly do you occupy a foreign city without bombing it first? By definition you're going to always have collateral damage, particularly when the targets like to hide behind women and children, whether you're only bombing them or bombing them and then occupying them. What you're advocating is both A) bombing them and then B) spending a decade trying to win hearts and minds while propping up a government that the US powers that be approve of. Seems dumb.

 

[goodlife30]

How exactly do you occupy a foreign city without bombing it first? By definition you're going to always have collateral damage, particularly when the targets like to hide behind women and children, whether you're only bombing them or bombing them and then occupying them. What you're advocating is both A) bombing them and then B) spending a decade trying to win hearts and minds while propping up a government that the US powers that be approve of. Seems dumb.

I am not advocating anything. You are just trying to dig yourself out of the hole you dug by proposing to level cities without concern for collateral damage. That's how you fuel an insurgency

 

[goodlife30]

Damn Japanese insurgents! If only we occupied like in the middle east where they love us.[/

That was the exact reason the imperial palace was not leveled as others in here have advocated. The fear if we killed the emperor there would be a rebellion to avenge his death. Kind of hard to rule a country when they think you killed off their ruling deity and personification of their culture.

 

[calsdad]

Yea you don't seem to "get" a lot of military stuff. If you can't figure out how SOAR would possibly benefit from operating in a major metropolitan city versus even the best of MOUT towns you really don't get it. Fortunately, you don't have to.

People also think we didn't land on the moon. People are generally pretty dumb. I'm convinced more of that daily... especially when taking 100 level polisci classes for fun. Our future looks bleak.

SF units have a very high chance of being deployed to a major city oconus... but thats been beat to death in this thread.

Training evolves. I'm confident its happened in the past, its just that alex jones and his nutjob followers weren't as well networked.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

How many individuals are typically involved in this training? From all the stories I have read - it's usually not that many. Maybe 2 or 3 helicopters - one might drop 6 or 8 guys on top of a building ..... there might be 20 guys in the street ..... in Miami they had maybe 3 or 4 boats involved ........... etc.

See this is another detail that makes me think bullshit - when they try to pass this off as simply a "training exercise".

What's the real long term point of training up such a small group of people????

 

[weekendracer]

Tin foil helmet design class will take place at a future date.
$50.00 per student.

This not news.
Where is the best place to train for urban ops? Urban places. Where do we find urban places? all over the planet.

Also right next to a live fire bombing range (Goldwater), where they could link up with Apaches and get used to flying combat formations.

Guys, I used to work in that area. F-16, 15 and A-10s prowl that desert 24/7. I got an apprehension one time of 5 vehicles from Apaches flying in the area. I got 'backup' from an Apache one time (He was probably returning to base and saw the red and blues and just stopped to check it out). It was spooky because his gun was still slaved to his monocle and to be blunt, he was looking right at me. That whole area is a military playground, lots of sand, not a whole lot of people outside PHX/TUC areas.

 

[calsdad]

They need to use real cities

That's pretty slick - but it's not a real city. In fact - you'd likely never be able to pull that kind of training off in a real city because nobody would go for it.

 

[calsdad]

Japan surrendered if I recall without an invasion. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Who is talking about bombing Mecca? I'm not aware of any terrorists or nations who attack the US hiding in Mecca.

On top of that I'm pretty sure we also firebombed Tokyo. So what is that you were talking about again?

Nowhere did I say we need to specifically target historical monuments. However, if you invade the US and build a tank factory next to one, yes you should expect both to get leveled. Are you saying you wouldn't support bombing of strategic targets just because they were built next to something of significance?

That's a bad analogy. The US was completely geared up to invade Japan - and Japan was fully prepared to resist an invasion. That's why we dropped the nukes.

And technically speaking - we did invade "Japan" - we invaded Okinawa.

 

[mav]

Damn Japanese insurgents! If only we occupied like in the middle east where they love us.

Not to muddy the waters regarding WWII Japan, but Japanese society literally worshiped their Emperor as a god and their Emperor surrendered to us. Then we helped rebuild their country. Those kinds of national reconstruction efforts don't exist anymore and no society is as unified today as Imperial Japan was back then. Apples and Oranges to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc...

 

[rawlus]

I'm not particularly comfortable with military training taking place off-base with an un-aware / un-knowing civilian backdrop. It's not that I don't see the value of training, I just don't believe for me the benefit of such training is worth the cost to freedoms or the sense of freedoms.

I also think it involves too much trust on behalf of the population towards the govt, generally an untrustworthy entity. I think the activity, while it may make sense to the participants, accomplishes other objectives for leadership. I see it as a continuing extension of intrusion by the govt into civilians lives and at risk are basic human rights and constitutional freedoms. Govt generally acts in its own best interest, not necessarily always in the best interest of its citizens.

If the civilian population were to desire change, I am concerned that change could be prevented by govt through the continuous development of domestic and military practices which intrude in greater and more meaningful ways into the daily lives of the population. I'm beginning to see the diminishing return on a personal level in these ongoing protections and am starting to see them as activities which seek to defend govt against those who might question it.

When does defense and protection of the people become control and management of the people? In many areas we have already tipped over that line. We do not need more.

So back to the question at hand... Is it a legitimate individual reaction to question the need and practices of military operations in public places? Is it reasonable for a citizen to inquire if this sort of event is not only needed but appropriate in the context of the life and liberties we choose to pursue? I say yes. Citizens absolutely should have the right and the voice to decide when and where they believe govt is exceeding its charter.

Militarized police, domesticated military, wiretaps and domestic spy ops to protect us and so on seem to paint a picture that is a bit more about controlling free will than enabling and empowering it.

 

[mac1911]

I'm no military expert and I don't know didly about tactics. I do have a few questions.
When did USA declare war against any of the worlds nations since world war 2? I cant think of one? Also my "at war with" mentality is to take life and property until your enimy submits.
that said conflicts have only been authorized by Congress for funding since WWII....which can be thought of as nothing more than mercenary missions .....no?
I cant think of one "conflict" us has been involved in that we needed extended military presence since world war 2 that was carried out to protect US soil and or the US constitution.? Part of me wishes we just kicked Japan's ass only in WWII.

My great uncle WWII vet never talked much about what he did but did warn me of a lot of what I am seeing now.
Warned me of the dangers of the UN. Militarization of police ectect. He firmly believed that a military of any standing magnitude is a threat to the civilians. He also said if politicians, police, military should be held to the law more so than a civillian. As they swear to the uphold of the constitution vs US citizen is protected by it.

I see a few things why "they" hate the US. Drone strikes are high on that list. Pretty much no arrrest no charges no jurry
Just a death sentance. Taking place in countries we have no formal declaration of war.....

I'm at loss of all the shit that's going on around the world. I'm also sad to say if ordered a special opps. Unit will carry out the orders given on home soil and citizens....what ever that mission maybe.

Forgive me if this is not clear. I'm not very good at translating my thoughts.
Just a bit of what's going through my mind reading through these post.
God bless

 

[mac1911]

Dup

 

[crazymjb]

I'm not particularly comfortable with military training taking place off-base with an un-aware / un-knowing civilian backdrop. It's not that I don't see the value of training, I just don't believe for me the benefit of such training is worth the cost to freedoms or the sense of freedoms.

I also think it involves too much trust on behalf of the population towards the govt, generally an untrustworthy entity. I think the activity, while it may make sense to the participants, accomplishes other objectives for leadership. I see it as a continuing extension of intrusion by the govt into civilians lives and at risk are basic human rights and constitutional freedoms. Govt generally acts in its own best interest, not necessarily always in the best interest of its citizens.

If the civilian population were to desire change, I am concerned that change could be prevented by govt through the continuous development of domestic and military practices which intrude in greater and more meaningful ways into the daily lives of the population. I'm beginning to see the diminishing return on a personal level in these ongoing protections and am starting to see them as activities which seek to defend govt against those who might question it.

When does defense and protection of the people become control and management of the people? In many areas we have already tipped over that line. We do not need more.

So back to the question at hand... Is it a legitimate individual reaction to question the need and practices of military operations in public places? Is it reasonable for a citizen to inquire if this sort of event is not only needed but appropriate in the context of the life and liberties we choose to pursue? I say yes. Citizens absolutely should have the right and the voice to decide when and where they believe govt is exceeding its charter.

Militarized police, domesticated military, wiretaps and domestic spy ops to protect us and so on seem to paint a picture that is a bit more about controlling free will than enabling and empowering it.

What freedoms does it cost people if they have public and when neccessary, private permission. The freedom to never have to see the military? They aren't messing with peoples lives during the training, so WGAF. I do think they should let people know well in advance so its not a surprise.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bonesinium]

They aren't messing with peoples lives during the training, so WGAF. I do think they should let people know well in advance so its not a surprise.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

Depends what you consider 'messing with peoples lives'. Shooting off [blank] rounds from helicopters in the city past people's homes can be quite startling and disrupting to people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri9ioCbqJCU

 

[Artifact]

Nothing to worry about, they are just training for overseas missions. You have to be the King Sheeple to buy that.

 

[Hiltonizer]

I'm going to give the .mil its due here...

Under the UCMJ, they've brainwashed enough stupidity, and injected enough drugs into its drones that we can completely discard that the bulk of them are actual patriots. Anyone who argues "ahhh, the insert force branch here are Americans just like you and me and won't disarm us" have plenty of proof in in this thread that they are completely anti freedom... but still technically patriots, as were the redcoats.

**** the .mil - New era Lobsterbacks

EDIT: when SHTF, if you want to live walking down main street usa... invest in some Realtree or something.. because your BDU's aren't going to be viewed as friendly.

 

[Martlet]

I'm going to give the .mil its due here...

Under the UCMJ, they've brainwashed enough stupidity, and injected enough drugs into its drones that we can completely discard that the bulk of them are actual patriots. Anyone who argues "ahhh, the insert force branch here are Americans just like you and me and won't disarm us" have plenty of proof in in this thread that they are completely anti freedom... but still technically patriots, as were the redcoats.

**** the .mil - New era Lobsterbacks

EDIT: when SHTF, if you want to live walking down main street usa... invest in some Realtree or something.. because your BDU's aren't going to be viewed as friendly.

You're a ****ing idiot. Seriously. A real ****ing idiot.

 

[goodlife30]

You're a ****ing idiot. Seriously. A real ****ing idiot.

I could not of said it better myself.

 

[not new guy]

*have

That's clear.

 

[goodlife30]

*have

That's clear.

See that's the problem with auto correct with big meat hooks for hands makes those little grammitical errors no one really notices. But thanks for caring

 

[not new guy]

For everyone defending military training in the middle of US population centers, where do you draw the line? Do you have a line? MJB doesn't, but do others? Any limit on nature, scale or frequency? Is everything fair game if it means more soldiers getting more training?

- - - Updated - - -

See that's the problem with auto correct with big meat hooks for hands makes those little grammitical errors no one really notices. But thanks for caring

Yeah, auto correct changed have to of.

We notice because we have to read all of your posts 3x to try to understand you.

 

[Boghog1]

I think they should Practice in D.C. I mean are we more likely to have some terrorist action in our nations capitol or the middle of the Desert South West?

 

[Martlet]

For everyone defending military training in the middle of US population centers, where do you draw the line? Do you have a line? MJB doesn't, but do others? Any limit on nature, scale or frequency? Is everything fair game if it means more soldiers getting more training?

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, auto correct changed have to of.

We notice because we have to read all of your post 3x to try to understand you.

Give me an example and I'll let you know if it bothers me. Expecting me to address every possible training scenario is idiocy.