They are back at it...
Did a thread search and saw nothing on this...so if it"s in some remote page or mentioned in another thread but not this exact story keep the "Dupe" crap to yourself.
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Army is back at it in Pheonix...Urban Training, Black Helo's
- Thread starter RedSoxandAKs
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They are back at it...
Did a thread search and saw nothing on this...so if it"s in some remote page or mentioned in another thread but not this exact story keep the "Dupe" crap to yourself.
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"It was dark and they were black(ed out)"Reporter: What did the helicopters look like?
Citizen: It was hard to say!
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
White Feather
Olive drab gets pretty dark at night 
Find me the history of the US military "training" right inside US cities as a common occurrence up until say ten years ago.
not new guy
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Many consider this sort of training inappropriate and offensive when conducted in our own cities like this. I don't think it's right, and I think that defending it demonstrates a lack of appreciation for what can happen when you give the .gov/.mil a domestic inch on stuff like this.
"But training" is a crappy excuse.
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Tin foil helmet design class will take place at a future date.
$50.00 per student.
This not news.
Where is the best place to train for urban ops? Urban places. Where do we find urban places? all over the planet.
$50.00 per student.
This not news.
Where is the best place to train for urban ops? Urban places. Where do we find urban places? all over the planet.
not new guy
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Yes, because it's more important to have a few units with experience jumping out of helicopters onto the rooves of skyscrapers in a place like downtown Phoenix/Miami/LA than it is to live in a country where we don't have our lives interrupted by military drills or a constant police/military presence. The training needs to be as realistic as possible (pretend the cleaning crews are al qaeda!), and without it we're in big trouble.
not new guy
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Because terrorism!
What's the best way for them to train for door to door residential ops? How about for dealing with a hostile local population? Where do you draw the line? Humvees in your own neighborhood?
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not new guy
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Give me a break with this "if you haven't been there you don't have a valid opinion" crap.
No, your opinion is welcome its just demonstrative of your lack of understanding. How often is your life interrupted by military training? Find something else to complain about that is a valid concern. If it were an actual problem I may agree with you, but it's not.
ETA my experience was shared to squelch the conspiracy garbage. Even the thread title, "black helos." No shit, the military uses military equipment when doing military training?! Its not to "acclimate" the public to military presence, it serves real training value thats applicable in current and furure conflicts. You all hate government waste and then you bitch when the military uses multi billion dollar cities that already exist under the guise that they are interrupting your life, or just as rediculously acclimating you to a military presence. Better stay away from those veterans day parades and fleet week events.
Mike
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mav
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The military has urban/MOUT training facilities to use. It doesn't need to use real US cities for training... not to mention Posse Comitatus kind of frowns upon domestic military deployments. I was OPFOR at NTC in Nevada and JMTC in Europe... we used plenty of urban mock ups that were plenty realistic.
http://v-e-n-u-e.com/In-the-Box-A-Tour-Through-the-Simulated-Battlefields-of-the-U-S-Army
FWIW, the only thing NTC and JMTC don't have are skyscrapers... now what battlefield would we be preparing for where there is a preponderance of skyscrapers?
* Edit * Train how you fight and fight how you train... again, why train in a modern, first-world, urban area with sky scrapers? When was the last time the US military deployed to fight in a modern first-world city? Europe in WWII... everything since has been 3rd world crap holes.
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These are likely predominantly SF units, and there are plenty of places around the world that have skyscrapers or taller buildings. The whole point of military training is to be prepared for anything, especially with specialized teams that end up doing all sorts of crazy stuff all over the world, much of which we never hear of.
Even some of the craziest mout towns I have seen are NOTHING like a real city, even a modest one.
And there are high-rises in Kabul and Iraq, many of which are/were government buildings or hotels...ie likely sites of attack.
ETA... train how you fight... so if SEALs needed to conduct a rescue mission for US personell taken captive by some terror organization in a city of an allied country... thats an unlikely scenario, unfathomable even??
Mike
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Even some of the craziest mout towns I have seen are NOTHING like a real city, even a modest one.
And there are high-rises in Kabul and Iraq, many of which are/were government buildings or hotels...ie likely sites of attack.
ETA... train how you fight... so if SEALs needed to conduct a rescue mission for US personell taken captive by some terror organization in a city of an allied country... thats an unlikely scenario, unfathomable even??
Mike
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Absolutely. When was the last time you saw shipping containers stacked up to 700 feet at NTC? Its training, they arent invading or getting us acclimated. And we already have humvees on city streets. Times change. Not the end of the world
not new guy
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Watertown post 4/15 was concerning. Thats a vast difference from training.
Mike
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xtry51
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I'm of the mind military drillng should not be allowed off base, period.
Secondly, we've fought only one legitimate war outside of US soil since WWII. That would be Afghanistan, which should have only lasted a month and only involved carpet bombing followed by a brief overwhelming ground invasion that ended with immediate withdrawal after we knew Bin Laden wasn't there.
We don't need to practice inside US cities period.
If we don't want people getting kidnapped, we should bring them home where they belong.
Secondly, we've fought only one legitimate war outside of US soil since WWII. That would be Afghanistan, which should have only lasted a month and only involved carpet bombing followed by a brief overwhelming ground invasion that ended with immediate withdrawal after we knew Bin Laden wasn't there.
We don't need to practice inside US cities period.
If we don't want people getting kidnapped, we should bring them home where they belong.
I fundamentally disagree especially wrt to sf units. There is a very legitimate argument for utilizing real cities to practice for missions that would occur in real cities. Its ****ing training.
Mike
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Mike
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xtry51
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I don't see anything useful that comes from training in a real city versus the many replicas built on military bases. SF will be deployed to other unknown cities anyway, so there's no "familiarity" to be gained. The only reason to be comfortable operating in US cities is to be used eventually in US cities.
I simply believe that military should be separate from civilian life in the largest degree possible. To not do this is to grow used to troops being around and open the door for later abuse. I'm not saying it's happening right now, but make no mistake. There is not a single instance in history of a government NOT eventually turning on its citizens.
I simply believe that military should be separate from civilian life in the largest degree possible. To not do this is to grow used to troops being around and open the door for later abuse. I'm not saying it's happening right now, but make no mistake. There is not a single instance in history of a government NOT eventually turning on its citizens.
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not new guy
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What is that argument then?
And where does it stop? Since SF units should have the best possible training at any cost should we have them conducting practice ops here in the US in our neighborhoods? Some people are shockingly cool with .mil humvees on city streets (times change, apparently), I just want to know if they're OK with sf guys crawling up on their public beaches, maneuvering around in their neighborhood in the middle of the night, or fastroping down from helicopters into shopping malls. I mean, it's just ****ing training.
We need to train with the resources we have here. Still someone would be complain that we are building training facilities out in the desert when we could use prefectly good cities in the US. Flying helos in a skyscraper envirornmet is critical. clearing huge buildings is complicated. It would cost billions to build a training area to simiulate this.
let's worry about something Real!
let's worry about something Real!
Boghog1
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Detriot or Chicago might be more realistic training
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