Army is back at it in Pheonix...Urban Training, Black Helo's

[Hiltonizer]

Just remember citizens, if you get out of line and start thinking your rights matter and you're not going to take this anymore... we'll freedom the **** out of you.

-Uncle Sam

 

[crazymjb]

I simply see no reason a national army needs to be worrying itself about saving hostages. That's not what an army is for.

Even with that thought process I don't see how that translates to not doing valuable training (SF could quite possibly need to conduct similar missions in a full scale authorized ground war) because, gasp, people might see it... despite having permission from local authorities.

Following your travel at own risk logic, who should rescue government personnel assigned to other countries, should nobody be trained for that, or should they "do their job at their own risk?"

Going with the agree to disagree thing, my foreign policy ideals are definitely more broad than yours.

Mike

 

[xtry51]

Even with that thought process I don't see how that translates to not doing valuable training (SF could quite possibly need to conduct similar missions in a full scale authorized ground war) because, gasp, people might see it... despite having permission from local authorities.

Following your travel at own risk logic, who should rescue government personnel assigned to other countries, should nobody be trained for that, or should they "do their job at their own risk?"

Going with the agree to disagree thing, my foreign policy ideals are definitely more broad than yours.

Mike

Hey, I'm cool with the discussion.

I'm not saying they shouldn't train at all. I'm simply saying training should not be done off base. I agree there are times SF may need to conduct urban combat. I'm just not sure actually practicing in real cities is a requirement, whether using private facilities or not.

IMO if you travel out of the country for any reason, whether it be working for the government or joe Blow on vacation, the US military is in no way responsible for your life period. A national army should exist only to repel invasion when attacked and only after declaring war and repelling the invasion to decimate the aggressor's country. Now one can easily argue that between the Navy and Air Force, there is no need in our time to put boots on the ground. It's very easy to simply bomb population centers into oblivian, drop leaflets saying don't attack us again and then go back home.

Of course in my preferred way to run a country we wouldn't have any troops on the ground outside of the US period. The Navy does a fine job of projecting power adequately and providing nuclear deterrents. No embassy at all, let alone troops there to protect it. We don't need embassies and we sure as he'll don't need military bases in other countries.

 

[Hiltonizer]

Going with the agree to disagree thing, my foreign policy ideals are definitely more broad than yours.

Would you concede that all this militarization activity in civilianstan is cause for concern greater than the sum of its parts?

Sure, excuses can be made up and down for running urban combat drills in residential areas. But add up that this is happening a lot, in a relatively short period of time, and is a relatively new concept. Also factor in the militarization of police, armored vehicles etc. The security BS everywhere, TSA and so on. The dept of Homeland Security being the 2nd biggest army in the world... eavesdropping... all of it. Also consider that money is no object, so wouldn't a dedicated training ground for urban ops be more practical and the drills better simulated?

Does you really see nothing wrong here?

 

[crazymjb]

Would you concede that all this militarization activity in civilianstan is cause for concern greater than the sum of its parts?

Sure, excuses can be made up and down for running urban combat drills in residential areas. But add up that this is happening a lot, in a relatively short period of time, and is a relatively new concept. Also factor in the militarization of police, armored vehicles etc. The security BS everywhere, TSA and so on. The dept of Homeland Security being the 2nd biggest army in the world... eavesdropping... all of it. Also consider that money is no object, so wouldn't a dedicated training ground for urban ops be more practical and the drills better simulated?

Does you really see nothing wrong here?

I'm not concerned about military training as I have partaken in "patrols" and "convoys" on public ways in effort to get the most training value out of a given amount of time or location, and it was all geared towards deployment overseas. I have no doubt that is what is taking place here as well.

What I am concerned with is the militarization of police. Less so because I think it is a precursor to martial law, more-so because cops should not feel like it they are military when on the streets in the US. The ROEs for police should favor the innocent living, not the cops. In the military in overseas operations, your life first is fine, collateral damage is acceptable, not here.

I question whether military operations are more prevalent on "our streets" now vs then, or just more reported by the tinfoil hat wearing infowars fanbois. Kent state was ****ed up, and I'd argue things were worse then. We don't have armed NG posted outside schools. The training the US mil does here is truly intended for overseas operations.

Mike

 

[Andy in NH]

I agree there are times SF may need to conduct urban combat.

Are you familiar with the Robin Sage Exercise?

Not entirely urban combat, but it encompasses several counties in NC on a regular basis.

 

[gearjunky13]

We don't have the full details of the training do we? As I said, I imagine it is largely for the pilots, and probably basic insertions (again I imagine largely for the pilots).

No MOUT town exists on the scale of a major city.

Mike

True

but i have heard some scary storys about how large military helicopters were mechanically (like when the pilot says he only worries about that when it stops leaking), and i also was told by a respected pilot who used to train people to fly that a helicopter was a mechanical failer waiting to happen, or something like that (he may just hate helicopters, who knows)

But still i would not want them flying around my house or crowded area unless absolutely necessary

 

[crazymjb]

Helicopters fly over cities all the time. I've seen Cobras, 53s, and blackhawks. Even Boston had Ospreys flying around for fleet week. I don't think they are as dangerous as people make them out to be, especially the newer ones. I've only flown in the back of 53s, and you do in fact get gear oil/hydraulic oil leaking on you.

Mike

 

[gearjunky13]

I'm not concerned about military training as I have partaken in "patrols" and "convoys" on public ways in effort to get the most training value out of a given amount of time or location, and it was all geared towards deployment overseas. I have no doubt that is what is taking place here as well.

What I am concerned with is the militarization of police. Less so because I think it is a precursor to martial law, more-so because cops should not feel like it they are military when on the streets in the US. The ROEs for police should favor the innocent living, not the cops. In the military in overseas operations, your life first is fine, collateral damage is acceptable, not here.

I question whether military operations are more prevalent on "our streets" now vs then, or just more reported by the tinfoil hat wearing infowars fanbois. Kent state was ****ed up, and I'd argue things were worse then. We don't have armed NG posted outside schools. The training the US mil does here is truly intended for overseas operations.

Mike

You know its kinda funny when you look at how it seems our troops are acting more like a police force over seas, and our actual police force at home is acting more like the military.....wait no thats not funny at all

 

[gearjunky13]

Helicopters fly over cities all the time. I've seen Cobras, 53s, and blackhawks. Even Boston had Ospreys flying around for fleet week. I don't think they are as dangerous as people make them out to be, especially the newer ones. I've only flown in the back of 53s, and you do in fact get gear oil/hydraulic oil leaking on you.

Mike

Hay im not saying they dont fly around here to there on a regular basis, but having them do maneuvers over populated areas? IDK it just seems like a accident waiting to happen,

And i have been in a civilian helicopter (little 4 seater) and no oil was leaking on me, i assume military and civilian equipment are not quite the same

 

[crazymjb]

I'm not a helo mechanic so I couldn't tell you why it was leaking, but it's been the case every time I've been in one.

Mike

 

[RLBreton]

You know its kinda funny when you look at how it seems our troops are acting more like a police force over seas, and our actual police force at home is acting more like the military.....wait no thats not funny at all

^^THIS^^

 

[Andy in NH]

I'm not a helo mechanic so I couldn't tell you why it was leaking, but it's been the case every time I've been in one.

Mike

I had a '46 crew chief tell me once, "If it ain't leaking it means it's empty!"

 

[xtry51]

Helicopters are lovingly referred to as "flying fatigue machines" by the MechEs that design them. The need to keep weight down in order to increase payload demands of military action, coupled with the inherently high stresses produced by the rotor designs does not lend itself well to not leaking or breaking frequently.

 

[BostonVI]

The tinfoil in this thread is overwhelming. I doubt that anyone in Phoenix was even remotely affected by this. Don't get me wrong, I'm just as weary of the militarization of law enforcement as the rest of you. The local cop on the beat has absolutely no need for an MRAP. I don't see the military training for overseas deployment, even if it's in a city, to be a prelude of some future JBT, rights trampling, invocation of martial law. Here's a scenario. What if the city of Boston was host to some large scale, 24-hour training exercise by local, state, DHS, and the rest of the federal LE agencies? Would it be an issue if they used a fraction of the Boston area hospitals to simulate and train for HazMat incidents? Just curious because this happened last fall without a complaint. Obviously this wasn't a military training exercise, but certainly some of the same principals apply. I hear the argument that the military shouldn't train in populated cities, but I don't necessarily believe that it's purpose is to "condition" the people to a future of martial law. Most of the people in the military that I know hate JBThuggery just as much as anyone else.

Urban Shield: Boston will run for a 24-hour period. As a result residents in the area may hear simulated gunfire, observe officers responding to simulated emergencies, or see activity in the Boston Harbor. Each scenario will be run multiple times, and organizers urge residents not to be alarmed. There is no danger to anyone in the area, and exercises will be done in cordoned-off areas away from the public.

http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/default.aspx?id=5837

 

[GPP]

I simply see no reason a national army needs to be worrying itself about saving hostages. That's not what an army is for.

What exactly do you think an army is for? What about the air force, you think there will ever be air to air combat again? Doubtful. But we still need them right? Times change, and warfare changes. Battering rams and burning oil to laser guided bombs. Unconventional warfare is what we are looking at, and that's always going to start in urban areas. So, training in real urban areas is whats needed. How does that infringe on you? Are you familiar with Operation Robin Sage? That's been going on for years in North Carolina, and you don't hear a peep from the residents.

 

[GPP]

Hey, I'm cool with the discussion.

I'm not saying they shouldn't train at all. I'm simply saying training should not be done off base. I agree there are times SF may need to conduct urban combat. I'm just not sure actually practicing in real cities is a requirement, whether using private facilities or not.

IMO if you travel out of the country for any reason, whether it be working for the government or joe Blow on vacation, the US military is in no way responsible for your life period. A national army should exist only to repel invasion when attacked and only after declaring war and repelling the invasion to decimate the aggressor's country. Now one can easily argue that between the Navy and Air Force, there is no need in our time to put boots on the ground. It's very easy to simply bomb population centers into oblivian, drop leaflets saying don't attack us again and then go back home.

Of course in my preferred way to run a country we wouldn't have any troops on the ground outside of the US period. The Navy does a fine job of projecting power adequately and providing nuclear deterrents. No embassy at all, let alone troops there to protect it. We don't need embassies and we sure as he'll don't need military bases in other countries.

Simply bomb population centers into oblivion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well it certainly worked for the Russians in Afghanistan! I guess if an Osprey overflys my house, while leaking hydraulic fluid, and the crew chief kicks out a bunch of butterfly mines Ill worry.

 

[xtry51]

What exactly do you think an army is for? What about the air force, you think there will ever be air to air combat again? Doubtful. But we still need them right? Times change, and warfare changes. Battering rams and burning oil to laser guided bombs. Unconventional warfare is what we are looking at, and that's always going to start in urban areas. So, training in real urban areas is whats needed. How does that infringe on you? Are you familiar with Operation Robin Sage? That's been going on for years in North Carolina, and you don't hear a peep from the residents.

I'm not even sure where to start tearing this apart. No need for an air force? Wow. Try not jumping the shark here.

And no, I don't think they should be doing ORS either.

- - - Updated - - -

Simply bomb population centers into oblivion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well it certainly worked for the Russians in Afghanistan! I guess if an Osprey overflys my house, while leaking hydraulic fluid, and the crew chief kicks out a bunch of butterfly mines Ill worry.

That's not what the Russians did in Afghanistan, nor is what the Russians actually did (as opposed to what you apparently think they did) what I suggested we do in my posts. Read more, post less.

 

[falcon123]

We need to train with the resources we have here. Still someone would be complain that we are building training facilities out in the desert when we could use prefectly good cities in the US. Flying helos in a skyscraper envirornmet is critical. clearing huge buildings is complicated. It would cost billions to build a training area to simiulate this.
let's worry about something Real!

since when is this a concern for a govt that just spent $635 million on a website that doesn't work? Or gave $500 million to a company that filed for bankruptcy 2weeks later?

 

[calsdad]

The military has urban/MOUT training facilities to use. It doesn't need to use real US cities for training... not to mention Posse Comitatus kind of frowns upon domestic military deployments. I was OPFOR at NTC in Nevada and JMTC in Europe... we used plenty of urban mock ups that were plenty realistic.

http://v-e-n-u-e.com/In-the-Box-A-Tour-Through-the-Simulated-Battlefields-of-the-U-S-Army

FWIW, the only thing NTC and JMTC don't have are skyscrapers... now what battlefield would we be preparing for where there is a preponderance of skyscrapers?

* Edit * Train how you fight and fight how you train... again, why train in a modern, first-world, urban area with sky scrapers? When was the last time the US military deployed to fight in a modern first-world city? Europe in WWII... everything since has been 3rd world crap holes.

Exactly.

The news has been full of reports over the years of mock cities and urban landscapes setup by the US military for training purposes.

Combine that with the fact that cities are pretty much their own unique environment - and I honestly can't see what the training "benefits" are of doing these exercises within a "real" city - any more than doing them within one of these mock cities that are allegedly setup.

Not to mention the fact that in some of these past exercises they've literally been flying around in the helicopters shooting out the doors (blanks obviously) - what the hell was the point of that?

This is why I asked the question before: find me the incidents where the US military trained within a city prior to say 10 years or so ago. If you go back to say pre 1990 - the US military had a HIGHER chance of going to war in a major city - because the Cold War was still a REAL thing - and if that went off we likely WOULD HAVE BEEN fighting in cities with skyscrapers and so forth.

It's stuff like this that make people think these exercises are about something else entirely - than "realistic training".

 

[gearjunky13]

I'm not a helo mechanic so I couldn't tell you why it was leaking, but it's been the case every time I've been in one.

Mike

Thats the same thing the guy i was talking to said, supposedly its not a problem untill it stops leaking
I believe he was in a chinook

 

[crazymjb]

Exactly.

The news has been full of reports over the years of mock cities and urban landscapes setup by the US military for training purposes.

Combine that with the fact that cities are pretty much their own unique environment - and I honestly can't see what the training "benefits" are of doing these exercises within a "real" city - any more than doing them within one of these mock cities that are allegedly setup.

Not to mention the fact that in some of these past exercises they've literally been flying around in the helicopters shooting out the doors (blanks obviously) - what the hell was the point of that?

This is why I asked the question before: find me the incidents where the US military trained within a city prior to say 10 years or so ago. If you go back to say pre 1990 - the US military had a HIGHER chance of going to war in a major city - because the Cold War was still a REAL thing - and if that went off we likely WOULD HAVE BEEN fighting in cities with skyscrapers and so forth.

It's stuff like this that make people think these exercises are about something else entirely - than "realistic training".

Yea you don't seem to "get" a lot of military stuff. If you can't figure out how SOAR would possibly benefit from operating in a major metropolitan city versus even the best of MOUT towns you really don't get it. Fortunately, you don't have to.

People also think we didn't land on the moon. People are generally pretty dumb. I'm convinced more of that daily... especially when taking 100 level polisci classes for fun. Our future looks bleak.

SF units have a very high chance of being deployed to a major city oconus... but thats been beat to death in this thread.

Training evolves. I'm confident its happened in the past, its just that alex jones and his nutjob followers weren't as well networked.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

 

[JS870]

Its training. Preparedness......issue?

 

[Twigg]

Just as the long circuitous route has a calming effect on cattle on their way up the ramp into the slaughterhouse this procedure of increasing "Training missions" around the major cities under the cries of "Defending against terrorism !" has a calming effect on the sheeple both in everyday life and here on this board. meanwhile MRAP's are being distribuited and we're being promised "No we ain't gonna put no maching guns on 'em." You can bet your bottom dollar they will. Heck there is at least one police department with a tracked APC that has a beltfed M2 on it.

It's just a training mission all right, to get the civillians used to large scale military operations right here in the backyard.

Oh and you get to keep your healthcare plan too.

 

[goodlife30]

Just as the long circuitous route has a calming effect on cattle on their way up the ramp into the slaughterhouse this procedure of increasing "Training missions" around the major cities under the cries of "Defending against terrorism !" has a calming effect on the sheeple both in everyday life and here on this board. meanwhile MRAP's are being distribuited and we're being promised "No we ain't gonna put no maching guns on 'em." You can bet your bottom dollar they will. Heck there is at least one police department with a tracked APC that has a beltfed M2 on it.

It's just a training mission all right, to get the civillians used to large scale military operations right here in the backyard.

Oh and you get to keep your healthcare plan too.

I am curious as to the end result please explain.

 

[crazymjb]

Just as the long circuitous route has a calming effect on cattle on their way up the ramp into the slaughterhouse this procedure of increasing "Training missions" around the major cities under the cries of "Defending against terrorism !" has a calming effect on the sheeple both in everyday life and here on this board. meanwhile MRAP's are being distribuited and we're being promised "No we ain't gonna put no maching guns on 'em." You can bet your bottom dollar they will. Heck there is at least one police department with a tracked APC that has a beltfed M2 on it.

It's just a training mission all right, to get the civillians used to large scale military operations right here in the backyard.

Oh and you get to keep your healthcare plan too.

Do you actual believe this shit? Are you actually that crazy?

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

 

[not new guy]

Do you actual believe this shit? Are you actually that crazy?

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

Not everyone shares your trust and faith in our government.

 

[RLBreton]

Do you actual believe this shit? Are you actually that crazy?

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, I seem to remember a time when warrantless spying on American citizens was crazy talk...as was injecting poor African American men with syphilis from the 30's to the early 70's so they could track its long term effects...as was talk of the US government staging attacks on US soil to implicate Cuba in the early 60's.

You can call it crazy all you want. I say my eyes are wide open and you're fooling yourself if you think any part of the government machine gives two red hot shits about any of us. Wake up--it's all about money and control.

 

[Artifact]

Not everyone shares your trust and faith in our government.

I think he was replying to himself.

 

[bullseye]

Well first of all, we train for combat almost exckusively in the US, using already constructed off base fascilities that would cost too much to build on base is a no brainer.

As I stated earlier, an urban hostage rescue is a very realistic operation an sf unit could be tasked with.

Mike




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Wait, what??!! Urban SF HRT? Did the FBI retire theirs or are they just one of the same? How about all the state and local HRT's that have spent gazillions on new gear and training.
Maybe if we kept a years worth of foreign donations to countries that hate us, the .gov could build .mil their own training cities complete with .mil compliant sheep to train on.