Arguing RKBA.

[Eye5600]

We just had a thread entitled "What's So Hard to Understand About the Right to Bear Arms?". I have something to say that could have gone there, but I didn't want to bury it. I'll say it once here, and try not to say it over and over.

Every person has certain things that they believe, and they attach certain levels of importance and certitude to them. It's their world view. It's their context. If you want to understand why a person thinks what he/she does, you have to understand their world view. You have to accept that it may be different from yours. Of course you think your view is more valid than theirs. The fact is, they think theirs is more valid than yours.

If you want to change someone's opinion about something, you have to argue in their context, not in your own. To use a non-gun example, if you convince a Christian, you need to argue in a Christian context. If you want to convince a Muslim, you need to argue in Muslim context. I'm sure that non-believers out there have pulled out their hair when someone based their argument on what's written in the Bible, or in the Koran. Referring to the Bible will not convince a non-believer.

And referring to the 2nd Amendment will not convince someone who is anti-gun. In fact, it will just turn them off.

To change someone's mind, you should:
1) agree that gun safety should be improved whenever possible
2) point out the AWB did not increase gun safety
3) point out that policing the AWB and other gun control measures costs money and police time that could be used for other things
4) point out that we all ready have quite a lot of gun control
5) point out that the AWB and many gun control laws were made by people who do not know about guns, and are considered bad law by most people who do know about guns.

Do you get it?

 

[wahsben]

We just had a thread entitled "What's So Hard to Understand About the Right to Bear Arms?". I have something to say that could have gone there, but I didn't want to bury it. I'll say it once here, and try not to say it over and over.

Every person has certain things that they believe, and they attach certain levels of importance and certitude to them. It's their world view. It's their context. If you want to understand why a person thinks what he/she does, you have to understand their world view. You have to accept that it may be different from yours. Of course you think your view is more valid than theirs. The fact is, they think theirs is more valid than yours.

If you want to change someone's opinion about something, you have to argue in their context, not in your own. To use a non-gun example, if you convince a Christian, you need to argue in a Christian context. If you want to convince a Muslim, you need to argue in Muslim context. I'm sure that non-believers out there have pulled out their hair when someone based their argument on what's written in the Bible, or in the Koran. Referring to the Bible will not convince a non-believer.

And referring to the 2nd Amendment will not convince someone who is anti-gun. In fact, it will just turn them off.

To change someone's mind, you should:
1) agree that gun safety should be improved whenever possible
2) point out the AWB did not increase gun safety
3) point out that policing the AWB and other gun control measures costs money and police time that could be used for other things
4) point out that we all ready have quite a lot of gun control
5) point out that the AWB and many gun control laws were made by people who do not know about guns, and are considered bad law by most people who do know about guns.

Do you get it?

Gun owners have done all this and more over and over again. Some just want to believe what they want to believe no matter the evidence and others know we are right but they have an agenda to control others.

 

[sig shooter]

Most politicians use gun control to control us peasant's. When it comes to politicians it has nothing to do with fear just control. if you were going to kill millions of people and establish a socialist system would you want the common man to be armed?. the fear of guns from everyday people like us is due to media brainwashing. Ever notice when the news comes and the news anchor is talking about a killing that did not even involve a gun theres a outline of a man with a pistol off to the side?

 

[center442]

As many others have said, it's less about guns and more about control.

 

[Bill Nance]

the fear of guns from everyday people like us is due to media brainwashing.

No, the fear of guns is most of the time lack of positive exposure.

If you'd never seen an AR except non the news having killed someone or in the movies it would be a little scary. The lies from the Brady nuts are just the icing on the cake.

I given up trying to convince someone gun control is bad. Instead I take them to the range and try to make sure they have a really good time.

Once they've got positive exposure they're a lot more amenable to reason.

Again, this is as much about the urban/rural cultural divide as anything else.

 

[matt]

For many anti's, their "context" is founded in, effectively, in socialism (though they don't realize it and wouldn't admit if they did). To argue from that context is a lost cause, because the individual has no meaning in that context, and therefor individual rights have no meaning in that context.

 

[mikem317]

www.gunfacts.info

/thread

 

[Individualist]

Edumacate dem anti-gun politicians

How about asking GOAL, NES, NRA purchase and send copies of the following to the key MA anti-gun Congresspersons, Representatives, C.O.P.s, District Judges, etc. Retail total of $21 for the two books. I bet you can get a volume discount from the distributors.

Gun Facts $9.99 printed version
http://www.gunfacts.info/index.html

More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws (Paperback) by John R. Lott Jr. (Author) $11.20
http://www.gunfacts.info/books.html

Heck, maybe this one too...

That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right (Independent Studies in Political Economy) (Paperback) $14.25

 

[seanc]

this seems to me to be a classic case of never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
in short you can not have a logical arguement with a person that bases their arguement on their FEEEEELLLINGSSS!!!

for example..

To change someone's mind, you should:

[/QUOTE] 1) agree that gun safety should be improved whenever possible[/QUOTE]
If nobody had a gun except for the police then there would be no accidents.


[/QUOTE] 2) point out the AWB did not increase gun safety[/QUOTE]
Nobody needs an assault weapon. Nobody needs an uzi to shoot skeet.

[/QUOTE] 3) point out that policing the AWB and other gun control measures costs money and police time that could be used for other things[/QUOTE]
if only the military and police had assault weapons we would not have shootouts like in LA and Miami last week. No civilian should be allowed to own these.

[/QUOTE] 4) point out that we all ready have quite a lot of gun control [/QUOTE]
Look at all the killings going on all over.obviously we need more gun control.

[/QUOTE] 5) point out that the AWB and many gun control laws were made by people who do not know about guns, and are considered bad law by most people who do know about guns.[/QUOTE]
all guns should be banned. The police will protect you. if it gets one gun off the street and saves one life than every law passed is worth it.

The Constitution needs to be widely accepted as the be all end all defense. The 2A needs to be recognized for what it really is and having nothing to do with ducks or skeet. Until the RIGHT to own a gun is accepted as a right we all need to use the Constitution as our basis for rationale.

 

[Eye5600]

Again, this is as much about the urban/rural cultural divide as anything else.

There is a lot of truth to that.

 

[FunYun]

No, the fear of guns is most of the time lack of positive exposure.

If you'd never seen an AR except non the news having killed someone or in the movies it would be a little scary. The lies from the Brady nuts are just the icing on the cake.

I given up trying to convince someone gun control is bad. Instead I take them to the range and try to make sure they have a really good time.

Once they've got positive exposure they're a lot more amenable to reason.

Again, this is as much about the urban/rural cultural divide as anything else.

I've seen people who are deathly afraid of firearms. They act like the thing is just gonna go off and kill people.

 

[seanc]

Just about any arguement I have been in with an anti goes some thing like this...
Fact represents a rational logical argement here..


Anti.. Guns are bad.
Me...Fact
Anti.. nobody needs a gun.
Me.. Fact
anti.. Nah 'ahh
Me.. Fact
Anti.. Nah 'ahh
Me.. Fact
Anti.. is not!!!
Me.. Fact
Anti.. I am rubber, you are glue.
Me.. fact
Anti.. You're mean.
Me.. Fact
anti.. Guns are bad (start from the top)

You are basically arguing fact vs. feeling. No ammount of fact or logic penetrates. It is like trying to explain to a 3year old why they can't have a cookie. At some point they drag you down to their level and you start countering with "because I said so". followed by "why?" and round and round it goes..

 

[Bassturd]

I've seen people who are deathly afraid of firearms. They act like the thing is just gonna go off and kill people.

I have no problem with untrained people being afraid of firearms. When I talk to people that are afraid, I tell them that their fear is good because firearms are very dangerous when handled improperly. Then I explain that I can help them change that fear into respect for what a firearm is capable of by helping the person to learn about firearms and how to use them safely.

"Deathly afraid" might be tough to overcome, but often times it's worth the effort. Help someone that is scared of firearms to learn safe handling and to have some fun shooting, and you have a great ally on your side for helping other people that are afraid to learn to turn fear into respect.

 

[Eye5600]

You are basically arguing fact vs. feeling.

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you feel they have no facts on their side because you discount them for some reason. That doesn't mean they are not facts.

It's a fact that many people will never expect to have any experience with a gun that is not a negative experience.

 

[Mr Weebles]

This is a good thread, but I have to ask ... why bother arguing RKBA?

99.9% of the people who want to ban guns will not under any circumstances change their mind. It's like arguing abortion or politics.

Because of that, I don't bother even engaging them.

I'd rather spend my energy taking someone new to the range who is open-minded enough to try out the sport. If they like it, I'll take them again, answer their questions and encourage them to become more involved. If they don't like it, that's fine, they tried but I know it's not for everyone.

 

[seanc]

Perhaps you feel they have no facts on their side because you discount them for some reason. That doesn't mean they are not facts. .

The "facts" that I have always come up against are:
Guns are bad.
no body needs a (fill in the blank)
Only the Police should have guns
You don't need a (fill in the blank) to shoot skeet
The second ammendment is about a state militia.
Nobody needs a gun, that is what police are for
cop killer bullets/ armor piercing ammo
yada yada.

If these are not the "facts" that you are arguing against, I'd love to hear what you have come accross..

And as above the vast majority of the people that want to ban guns have absolutely no knowledge of firearms at all. And further have absolutely no desire to research, learn or think what so ever (in my experience).

 

[Individualist]

This is a good thread, but I have to ask ... why bother arguing RKBA?

99.9% of the people who want to ban guns will not under any circumstances change their mind. It's like arguing abortion or politics.

Because of that, I don't bother even engaging them.

I'd rather spend my energy taking someone new to the range who is open-minded enough to try out the sport. If they like it, I'll take them again, answer their questions and encourage them to become more involved. If they don't like it, that's fine, they tried but I know it's not for everyone.

I disagree. It is also very much media base knowledge vs. having a real understanding.

Example.. my wife has been 100% anti-gun to the max all her life, because her only source of information came from the 11 o'clock news. Tell me, why WOULD anyone be pro RKBA if that's all they heard? After discussions with myself, friends and their wives, reading articles I've given her.... she's now signed up for training to get her LTC! Remove the fear factor and a lot is possible.

Educate them with facts. Same with our public servants. You won't change everyone, but you will change some.

 

[P-14]

One of my favorite quotes applies to this thread:

“I don't mean to be negative, but you can't reason with real moonbats. They're not interested in the truth. It's a waste of band width.” News Shooter – NES Forum

Thanks, News Shooter!

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I open a lot of eyes by examining and explaining the definitions of "Assault Rifles", "Assault Weapons", their function and power and rate of fire in terms that they can understand. I also keep rounds of .223, 7.62X39, 30-30, 30-06 and others for show and tell. Be suprised how many, who will still stay anti, will at least admit that the guns in question are not as horrible as they are made out to be. As far as RKBA, forget it. Jack.

 

[seanc]

I have found that spending 5 minutes bringing any open minded person to the range to shoot any of my guns is 1000 times more productive than an hour of arguing with a "guns are bad" liberal.

And I whole heartedly agree with Jack.. I have found that overwhelmingly, no ammount of facts, demonstrations or logic will sway 98% of these people. Everything they need to know is fed to them by the MSM and the Brady Bunch.

 

[toga]

I open a lot of eyes by examining and explaining the definitions of "Assault Rifles", "Assault Weapons", their function and power and rate of fire in terms that they can understand. I also keep rounds of .223, 7.62X39, 30-30, 30-06 and others for show and tell. Be suprised how many, who will still stay anti, will at least admit that the guns in question are not as horrible as they are made out to be. As far as RKBA, forget it. Jack.

Jack,
Could you please elaborate some on the arguments that you have found to be persuasive WRT EBRs?
Thanks,
toga

 

[cekim]

I have found that spending 5 minutes bringing any open minded person to the range to shoot any of my guns is 1000 times more productive than an hour of arguing with a "guns are bad" liberal.

And I whole heartedly agree with Jack.. I have found that overwhelmingly, no ammount of facts, demonstrations or logic will sway 98% of these people. Everything they need to know is fed to them by the MSM and the Brady Bunch.

Yeah, we need to have more "take an anti to the range" days everywhere...

 

[dwarven1]

Very good edition of 30 Minutes here. Take 42 minutes and watch it.

For me, I have an excellent argument that I trot out whenever I get someone bleating the old "If it saves one life" crap at me... I tell them the story of a very good friend of mine, an ex-Army Ranger, who was shot and killed by an ex-con, in NYC, while the con was still on parole. The laws disarmed Harvey and didn't do squat to prevent his killer from arming himself... and had Harv been armed, I'm convinced the results would have been completely different.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Jack,
Could you please elaborate some on the arguments that you have found to be persuasive WRT EBRs?
Thanks,
toga

Well, first we get the semi versus full auto issue out of the way. Then I trot out the ammo and compare the AK 47 round ( I use the 7.62) with the .30-30 and my .30-06 deer hunting round. Then I compare the AR 15 ammo (5.56) with any high power rifle round. By then, they see that the AK and AR ammo is peanuts compared to most hunting ammo. If they are then still willing to listen, we get into the evil features and explain how the flash hider does not hide the flash, how any rifle can be fired from the hip, how there is no point to doing that because you can't use the sights and can't hit anything, etc. You get the idea. Jack.