Are Appleseeds Dead?

[exo]

Of late, we've been essentially asking folks every morning - as often as not, most folks have had enough to put in a hard days work, and sometimes we've even come by a little extra for those who need it.
If I had to guess, I'd wager that plinking has taken a serious hit to, while learning and practicing remain worth spending the ammo on. I just hope nobody's skipping shoots because they don't think it's worth going unless they have 800 rounds to burn.

Of the people I've tried to get to go lately, spending 500 rounds of ammo they can't replace easily seems to be asking a lot. However, I don't go with these folks to the range so I don't know if they're just uselessly blasting away or if they're just not shooting at all.

 

[MetalgodZ]

Of the people I've tried to get to go lately, spending 500 rounds of ammo they can't replace easily seems to be asking a lot. However, I don't go with these folks to the range so I don't know if they're just uselessly blasting away or if they're just not shooting at all.

If the ammunition is the problem, we've discussed limited round count Appleseeds. I don't know how many have been run, as I've been dealing with a new kid instead of running Appleseeds this year...But the framework is there. If there's more demand for them than you're seeing scheduling for, PLEASE hit the AS forum (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/) for your state and ask for one! Alternatively, GO to a regular Appleseed, indicate you've got an ammo shortage, and dry fire during some of the shooting stages. If you get lucky, you may find a shoot boss or instructor that's got a few hundred rounds kicking around, too.

 

[exo]

Personally I think ammunition is a contributing factor to low attendance, but not the whole reason. Hopefully the new marketing director or whoever will get the word out. In my area, Appleseed is still very much a word of mouth thing.

I tell everybody I can about it, but getting people to commit is difficult.

 

[jefftk]

Personally I think ammunition is a contributing factor to low attendance, but not the whole reason. Hopefully the new marketing director or whoever will get the word out. In my area, Appleseed is still very much a word of mouth thing.

I tell everybody I can about it, but getting people to commit is difficult.

Has anyone tried to get it in to the GOAL newsletter? There is a section for local club events in every Friday newsletter, half of which always seem to be trap/skeet matches....

 

[Christian]

Yes, and most instructors have a couple loaners as long as you let us know early. Shoot an email to [email protected] and let us know what you need, we'll get you sorted.



As long as they're pre-registered as youth, that covers it.



The club isn't really equipped for that, but also bear in mind that you'll likely want to do a little cleaning overnight. FWIW, the only hotel chain I know of that has an actual policy on the matter is Hilton, so as long as you avoid them, it shouldn't be too much of a big deal.

Last summer when I went to Leyden I checked into the Hampton Inn in Greenfield with a wheeled hard sided rifle case leaning against the counter. Getting into the elevator two guys came in behind me, as we were going up one of the guys asked what was in the case. I told him it was a guitar and the other guy started laughing pretty hard. The first guy looking confused asked him why he was laughing and the other said it was a rifle case. The first guy jumped back as if he was trying to get through the elevator wall which made the second guy laugh even more.

Leyden is a great location and the guys there were awesome, I look forward to some day going back.

 

[dwarven1]

The sand/gravel at Harvard isn't that bad, but on dry days, a lot of dust goes into the air, and it gets into places no rifle wants dust. On days which are not dry, it's mud instead of dust.

I've never had much of a problem with my three on dry days... but on wet days, mud is an absolute KILLER for the Ruger rotary magazines. It's the only time I've ever seen the M&P15-22s outshoot the Rugers - those open-sided mags on the Smiths don't jam in the mud. At least, I've never seen them do it.

 

[Roy Rogers]

Two Appleseeds in which I participated at Harvard were well-attended, excellent instruction, well worthwhile. Perhaps the title of this thread could be updated to, "Appleseeds: Very Much Alive, Coming to a Range Near You."

 

[rjh200]

I'm hoping to get to the October one at Harvard. I have been pretty fortunate in my ability to find 22 so if I do end up going I can probably help out a few people who are having trouble finding it. I'll know in the next 2 weeks if I can manage it or not.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[dcmdon]

Personally I think ammunition is a contributing factor to low attendance, but not the whole reason. Hopefully the new marketing director or whoever will get the word out. In my area, Appleseed is still very much a word of mouth thing.

I tell everybody I can about it, but getting people to commit is difficult.

I think part of the problem with attendance is that there are a lot of people who have run through the program and have pretty much maxed it out. When I first experienced an appleseed I was thrilled and excited at the quality of the instruction, the format, and the cost. I went several times per year initially, and saw big improvements with every event.

But the program is in a way a victim of their own success. I've reached a point where i can predictably shoot 230-240 every run. THANKS TO APPLESEED. But the thrill is not the same.

I've been shooting competitively (at a mid pack level) and instructing for 30 years. The AS curriculum is the best I've ever experienced. They can take someone who has never shot a gun from zero to having a better grasp the theory and application of the fundamentals (i.e. a better marksman) than 95% of all shooters in 1 weekend. TWO DAYS!!!. Its amazing.

Any AS instructor will understand what I mean when I say that its very satisfying when you see butts shifting as new shooters adjust their NPOA exactly the way they are supposed to while shooting a string.

For me, part of the satisfaction I get shooting is that i get to learn new things. Reinforcing things I already know, is good. Learning new things is GREAT.

I still go to at least one AS per year as a tune up. You never outgrow the fundamentals, and you never stop acquiring bad habits. So an occasional AS will always be in my future.

But I would be REALLY thrilled if I could take my precision shooting to the next level. As it was, I spent $200/day for instruction at sig for a long range class. I would gladly give that money to the AS folks if they could provide similar training. . . . sorry. . . instruction.

Don

 

[Jim85IROC]

I need to start talking about the club members of my local range about hosting an Appleseed event. I think it would be a great thing to bring to southern VT.

 

[dwarven1]

I need to start talking about the club members of my local range about hosting an Appleseed event. I think it would be a great thing to bring to southern VT.

Jim, where in VT are you? I know we have instructors in Central VT and there are three shoots a year in Proctor. I can pass your contact info along to the VT state coordinator if you like, and he can ship you information packets. Possibly we can arrange an instructor to come down and present to your club.

 

[Coyote33]

Jim, where in VT are you? I know we have instructors in Central VT and there are three shoots a year in Proctor. I can pass your contact info along to the VT state coordinator if you like, and he can ship you information packets. Possibly we can arrange an instructor to come down and present to your club.

What are the rough requirements for this type of thing? Is there a minimum distance? How many shooters at a time? Duration?

Thanks.

 

[dwarven1]

What are the rough requirements for this type of thing? Is there a minimum distance? How many shooters at a time? Duration?

Thanks.

Doug, all the requirements are on Appleseedinfo.org.

 

[mac1911]

As far as getting new people to shoot..... ITS HARD. I offer up a least 2 free CMP shoot clinics every year. I have offered ride to and from breakfast and ammo and still get a fat no from so many people.... its almost insulting. I have had people bug me to take them to the range but once you mention 10am on sat morning,......forget it. I dont know maybe its just my area of massachusetts? I have a free cmp shoot/clinic offer on the karma section and only 11 IN? Thats above average!
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...rma-free-M1-garand-Clinic-shoot-up-dated-8-25

 

[dcmdon]

Doug, all the requirements are on Appleseedinfo.org.

appleseedinfo.org has all kinds of great info on what to bring.

Google is also your friend. Prior to my first appleseed I got a lot of great info simply by googling things like

"what should I bring to an appleseed"
"what should I do to prepare for an appleseed"

"what should I practice before an appleseed"
"what should I expect at my first appleseed"

You get my point. In many cases, the links went back to appleseedinfo.org.

I hope this helps.

In a nutshell, this is all you NEED.

A gun
A magazine
Ammunition
An open mind (check your ego at the door. I don't care if you have been shooting high power for 20 years. You will learn something, or at least be reminded not to do something bad)

In practice you should have
a USGI web sling - http://www.amazon.com/Tech-Sights-cotton-Libery-training/dp/B0045V9GVO/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
a total of 4 mags

In practice, its nice to have
one more mag (total of 5)
shooting mat/ground pad
long sleeve shirt or if you are a wuss, elbow pads
a pen and notepad

Non shooting things to bring
snacks
water
bug spray
sun screen
folding chair
anything else that you think might be useful for a day spent outside.

I usually bring a small washcloth, which I dunk into my melted cooler water and use to wipe the congealed dust off my head, neck, and, arms at the end of the day before the drive home. But thats just me.

 

[Coyote33]

Thanks Dwarven1 and dcmdon. I found what I was looking for under the link given (after a little digging):

How to Host an Appleseed

Here is what I was looking for:

The required range is 25 meters/82 feet. The entire Appleseed course can be conducted at this range, at reduced sized targets, to simulate 100 to 500 yards. If longer ranges are available, that is a bonus and may allow some actual distance shooting experience.

The firing line needs to be long enough to allow for 30 or more shooters, with 4 feet of firing line space per shooter. Smaller size ranges may also work, depending on location, Instructor availability and the number of Appleseed Shoots we can hold at that location during the year.

We need a safe back stop. This can be a man made berm or a natural back stop, like a hill or cut out. We also need restroom facilities, porta-potties are fine and if they aren't present RWVA will pay to rent them.

The Revolutionary War Veterans Association (RWVA) will provide the following for the event:
The proven Appleseed Course
RWVA Certified Instructors
Targets and Course Materials
National/Regional Promotions
our own liability insurance

What we ask of our Hosts:
A safe facility, with adequate parking and restroom facilities.
Volunteer help in setting up simple target backers and obtaining cardboard from a local supplier, usually free of charge.
Some help with local promotions, RWVA will provide a master flyer that can be copied and distributed to local businesses and community centers.

I think our range would be too small. The given 4 feet times 30 shooters is 120 feet. I am guessing we could maybe provide about 40-60 feet. Then again, shrink the class size, and it would be doable. Does this bring any income to the club?

 

[lupis42]

I think our range would be too small. The given 4 feet times 30 shooters is 120 feet. I am guessing we could maybe provide about 40-60 feet. Then again, shrink the class size, and it would be doable. Does this bring any income to the club?

That depends, but many clubs charge a range fee (something like $5/person/day).

 

[WatchCityCPA]

I think our range would be too small. The given 4 feet times 30 shooters is 120 feet. I am guessing we could maybe provide about 40-60 feet. Then again, shrink the class size, and it would be doable. Does this bring any income to the club?

Pelham ran an Appleseed last year in an action bay - could maybe fit 15 people at most. I'd check with RWVA if the range width is the only issue.

 

[headednorth]

Pelham ran an Appleseed last year in an action bay - could maybe fit 15 people at most. I'd check with RWVA if the range width is the only issue.

I was at the one earlier in the month at Harvard. No way it was a 120' line.

 

[Coyote33]

I think part of the problem with attendance is that there are a lot of people who have run through the program and have pretty much maxed it out. When I first experienced an appleseed I was thrilled and excited at the quality of the instruction, the format, and the cost. I went several times per year initially, and saw big improvements with every event.

But the program is in a way a victim of their own success. I've reached a point where i can predictably shoot 230-240 every run. THANKS TO APPLESEED. But the thrill is not the same.

I've been shooting competitively (at a mid pack level) and instructing for 30 years. The AS curriculum is the best I've ever experienced. They can take someone who has never shot a gun from zero to having a better grasp the theory and application of the fundamentals (i.e. a better marksman) than 95% of all shooters in 1 weekend. TWO DAYS!!!. Its amazing.

Any AS instructor will understand what I mean when I say that its very satisfying when you see butts shifting as new shooters adjust their NPOA exactly the way they are supposed to while shooting a string.

For me, part of the satisfaction I get shooting is that i get to learn new things. Reinforcing things I already know, is good. Learning new things is GREAT.

I still go to at least one AS per year as a tune up. You never outgrow the fundamentals, and you never stop acquiring bad habits. So an occasional AS will always be in my future.

But I would be REALLY thrilled if I could take my precision shooting to the next level. As it was, I spent $200/day for instruction at sig for a long range class. I would gladly give that money to the AS folks if they could provide similar training. . . . sorry. . . instruction.

Don

So they have a good product. What they need now is better sales/marketing.

 

[dcmdon]

So they have a good product. What they need now is better sales/marketing.

They also need to extend the curriculum. If you consider an Appleseed to be Marksmanship 101. Then they should try to offer 201 and a 301 level courses.

 

[JayMcB]

I was at the one earlier in the month at Harvard. No way it was a 120' line.

If the students show up, they open a second line. Both of them together add up to more than 120 feet. I've been to 3 there. There was always plenty of room, but if you're next to someone shooting centerfire, the brass and reports can kinda suck.

 

[dcmdon]

SOP at an Appleseed is to stick the centerfires on the far right of the line and stick the brand new shooters on the left, far away from the centerfires.

Especially in MA where there always seems to be a guy with a 16" AR with a muzzle brake in attendance.

 

[Machines]

I'm curious, what's good in the area for people who want a casual entry into shooting matches? I was thinking of trying an Appleseed event, for one. I could compete in a Garand match but holy god the ammo is expensive and I only have 600 rounds on hand. And some of the other competitive matches seem pretty hardcore for someone without a dedicated target gun.

Also, if I showed up to an Appleseed or something with a old fashioned 20" AR would I be considered a jerk?

 

[doctorbossman]

Also, if I showed up to an Appleseed or something with a old fashioned 20" AR would I be considered a jerk?

No problem shooting an AR. Many ARs (and AKs) have been at all the Appleseed shoots I've been to.

 

[Rockrivr1]

The sand/gravel at Harvard isn't that bad, but on dry days, a lot of dust goes into the air, and it gets into places no rifle wants dust. On days which are not dry, it's mud instead of dust.

This is the truth. Last Appleseed I went to was in Harvard and day one was dry and dusty. The second day was raining and it didn't take long for the ground to become a little muddy. I brought a tarp and a shooting pad, so I was OK. This was back when 223 wasn't that bad and I used my AR for class. It was a lot of fun.

 

[dcmdon]

I'm curious, what's good in the area for people who want a casual entry into shooting matches? I was thinking of trying an Appleseed event, for one. I could compete in a Garand match but holy god the ammo is expensive and I only have 600 rounds on hand. And some of the other competitive matches seem pretty hardcore for someone without a dedicated target gun.

Also, if I showed up to an Appleseed or something with a old fashioned 20" AR would I be considered a jerk?

Nobody would mind if you showed up with an AR to an appleseed. There are usually a few of them at every event.

While an appleseed would be great, you should also consider Braintree Rifle and pistol's monthly informal CMP matches. They are a lot of fun and assume you know nothing and have nothing. This is NOT a hardcore rifle match.

The best part is that the entry fee is $25 including rifle and AMMO!!!!. Its $5 if you bring your own rifle and ammo.

What I usually do if I want to shoot my own Garand is I bring my own gun and pay the $25 entry fee, which gets me 50 rounds of Lake City 30-06. How can you beat that?? (you can't). They have even let me keep more than my share of brass if I help them clean it up.

They have Garands and ARs for you to shoot if you don't have a gun. They even have eyes, ears, and spotting scopes. So you can just show up with $25 and get a chance to shoot a CMP type match with either an AR or a Garand. I can't think of a better way to introduce new shooters to centerfire rifle shooting.

Don

 

[dwarven1]

I think our range would be too small. The given 4 feet times 30 shooters is 120 feet. I am guessing we could maybe provide about 40-60 feet. Then again, shrink the class size, and it would be doable. Does this bring any income to the club?

A shorter range would be doable, especially if it's far from the two ranges that are used regularly in MA (Harvard & Leyden Rifle). We'd need to fit at least 15 shooters. MINIMUM that they'd need is 3' and that's VERY crowded - it can be done but it's a squeeze. 3.5'/shooter is better and 4' better still.

I was at the one earlier in the month at Harvard. No way it was a 120' line.

Harvard has many action pits - we start on the 65 yard range and expand as needed to new lines. They're a bit of an anomaly BUT we like them for their attitude in scheduling us. They also do not charge the shooters, which is a great plus.

So they have a good product. What they need now is better sales/marketing.

If you're hinting you want to volunteer, please go to the board and do so. They'd be happy to have you. We need better marketing, true... but we're an all-volunteer organization.

I'm curious, what's good in the area for people who want a casual entry into shooting matches? I was thinking of trying an Appleseed event, for one. I could compete in a Garand match but holy god the ammo is expensive and I only have 600 rounds on hand. And some of the other competitive matches seem pretty hardcore for someone without a dedicated target gun.

Also, if I showed up to an Appleseed or something with a old fashioned 20" AR would I be considered a jerk?

Appleseed is not a match but training. And if you showed up with a 20" AR, you would be considered a shooter with an AR. That's all. We'd probably put you on the right side of the line to minimize muzzle blast & tossed brass to the other shooters... but that would be the only thing we'd take notice of.

 

[MetalgodZ]

I'm curious, what's good in the area for people who want a casual entry into shooting matches? I was thinking of trying an Appleseed event, for one. I could compete in a Garand match but holy god the ammo is expensive and I only have 600 rounds on hand. And some of the other competitive matches seem pretty hardcore for someone without a dedicated target gun.

Also, if I showed up to an Appleseed or something with a old fashioned 20" AR would I be considered a jerk?

Not at all.

I'd add that if you have a 1:9" barrel, you may find the difference between the cost of the .223 you'd expend and the cost of a .22 conversion (e.g. CCMG), mags, and ammo to be worth purchasing the conversion. I've not shot .22 out of slower barrels, but I can tell you from personal experience that a 16" 1:9" barrel with a 3MOA red dot will shoot a Rifleman score at 25 yards every day, and will produce good hits with .22 out to 250 yards without losing significant accuracy.

If you're hinting you want to volunteer, please go to the board and do so. They'd be happy to have you. We need better marketing, true... but we're an all-volunteer organization.

I'm no marketer. I'm no persuader. I can keep my mouth shut long enough to not look as a fool, but this is not my forté, and it is not the particular strength of most of the other people in the organization. We need better marketing, though, as sure as we need an "advanced" path. So if you're someone with an idea for either, and you'd be willing to provide your input, please go to the board.

 

[lupis42]

I would like to see a "post-graduate" appleseed with it's main focus on the AR platform.
After all these are mostly what we will use in the upcoming insurrection...

They can be called ARppleseeds.

For Boris: AKleseed...

If there are a bunch of people interested, let me know and I'll see if I can put something together. There are enough AS instructors around who know their way around ARs, and there's probably enough material to adapt into a practical 1-Day.

Very interested.

Seconded

IN.

Well, there was enough interest, and more than enough material, so it's going to happen.

August 22-23 in Leyden, registration link is below:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/leyden-ma-appleseed-august-22-23-2015-tickets-16833941773

The course of fire is still being tuned, but I'm currently planning on ~400 rounds.
More details will be forthcoming in a dedicated thread once I get my act together.