AR pistol vs. AR SBR

[warwickben]

Is that a bolt action pistol? Or does it actually work semi?

Thats semi auto.
The gas key is extended out.
A spring wraps around it and a clip holds it on. It compresses against the front of the upper.

 

[skeetshooter]

buy complete lower, then buy complete standard upper, then buy sbr upper and leave it hidden

 

[Kevin_NH]

I'd rather just buy the stamp instead of playing games

buy complete lower, then buy complete standard upper, then buy sbr upper and leave it hidden

???

Unless you live in a ban state, why "hide" anything? Buy 1 stripped or pistol lower, then you can own all the short uppers you want, just don't do anything silly, (like make the wrong shape in a pick and pluck foam case) and you're golden.

---Updated---
Actually, I checked on the history of the Jesus Amador Pick-n-Pluck foam prosecution, and he was arrested under Florida law, no ATF involvement, charges were dropped and his property was returned.

 

[skeetshooter]

Because unfortunately the atf can make a case on what your intending to do. Not what you've done. Kind of the whole guilty till proven innocent thing

 

[Lucas]

Because unfortunately the atf can make a case on what your intending to do. Not what you've done. Kind of the whole guilty till proven innocent thing

This

It's called constructive intent and the Feds don't like that

 

[soloman02]

This

It's called constructive intent and the Feds don't like that

Its not constructive intent if you have another rifle completed nearby. It is just a completed rifle and an extra upper.

 

[skeetshooter]

Its not constructive intent if you have another rifle completed nearby. It is just a completed rifle and an extra upper.

Depends on the atf officer and how good his days been.

 

[soloman02]

Depends on the atf officer and how good his days been.

The ATF is not some magical boogeyman who will suddenly show up at your doorstep if you buy an upper with a barrel of less than 16"...

 

[warwickben]

Depends on the atf officer and how good his days been.

Read up on the contender ruling.
They basically can't get you on it. If they do you where going todo it and where guilty any ways.

Only way they could for a ar is if you don't own a "pistol ar" , don't have a sbr lower .
And you have a sbr or pistol upper .

But as long as you have a sbr or a pistol lower it's not some thing to worry about .

It's the same deal when people freak out about slides that convert a pistol to a carbine. Worried if you don't put the butt stock on first you can be busted for a aow.

 

[skeetshooter]

I'd strongly argue that. Especially having worked in a gunshop. Atf regs are onerous and obnoxious. And yes they can and will arrest you over something stupid because it gives them a chub over "catching a bad guy" and I'll argue that if they decide to arrest you for not registering an sbr you're gonn have a bad day.

- - - Updated - - -

City cops around here even in idaho have been known to call atf.

 

[drgrant]

TECHNICALLY it is.... after all the magazine can't be removed without a tool of some sort... though it can be removed eventually, even though pretty much ANY magazine can be removed with tools....

Like I said, it's all about how close to the line your willing to stand

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Bullet button would not have passed muster under the fed regs, which MA mirrored. if someone is gonna rely on that in MA, theyre better off just making the gun how they want it to begin with. This bullet button crap is a CA only thing.

 

[drgrant]

You can't own an AR pistol in MA. You can own an AR SBR, though.

Not true, it's just incredibly difficult to make an AR pistol that clears the 50 ounce bar.

 

[warwickben]

I'd strongly argue that. Especially having worked in a gunshop. Atf regs are onerous and obnoxious. And yes they can and will arrest you over something stupid because it gives them a chub over "catching a bad guy" and I'll argue that if they decide to arrest you for not registering an sbr you're gonn have a bad day.

- - - Updated - - -

City cops around here even in idaho have been known to call atf.

Read up on tc contender they use swappable barrels.

Basically they offer it as a pistol and a rifle.
But you can buy a kit to add a stock to the pistol and add a longer barrel to make a legal rifle.
This gun plus a few others opened up a can of worms with the converting a rifle to pistol rules .

Gist of the out come is this .

If you have parts and they can be assembled to make some thing legal .
Like adding a long barrel and stock to a pistol and it's now a legal rifle.
They can not assume one day your gonna assembly a illegal sbr.
It's pretty well documented case law. Not just ATF letters saying it's ok .


https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

 

[skeetshooter]

You may take it as "but I can make it a legal firearm" atf will not see it you're way

 

[Neuro]

you can easily travel between states with an AR Pistol, than an AR-SBR.

 

[Neuro]

Bullet button would not have passed muster under the fed regs, which MA mirrored. if someone is gonna rely on that in MA, theyre better off just making the gun how they want it to begin with. This bullet button crap is a CA only thing.

what about the ARMR2? It isnt a bullet button. It makes the magazine fixed. only being able to be removed then the action is open, like an SKS.

 

[exo]

you can easily travel between states with an AR Pistol, than an AR-SBR.

I think you mean "travel easier", but yeah there's no paperwork to file when doing that. My 5320.20's for next year have been approved and are in my hand, though.

 

[warwickben]

You may take it as "but I can make it a legal firearm" atf will not see it you're way

But that's ATF and doj ruling on constructive intent.
Same with having machine gun parts .
If you have a m16 and a ar15 and a spare fa fcg and sear they can't assume you want to build a illegal machine gun.

 

[Kevin_NH]

constructive intent

As a NH resident, I only have one AR-15 lower that was actually purchased as a rifle lower, so I guess I should sell that and buy a pistol lower, just to be safe.

Forum folk everywhere like to worry about constructive possession and "constructive intent", but the reason the Thompson Center Arms case is cited so often isn't just because Thompson Center Arms won, but because it's possibly the only relevant case ever actually pursued by BATFE , and is why BATFE published Ruling 2011-4.

 

[DarthRevan]

I wonder if a carbon fiber lower could be made that could withstand those forces.

 

[sweed]

As a NH resident, I only have one AR-15 lower that was actually purchased as a rifle lower, so I guess I should sell that and buy a pistol lower, just to be safe.

Forum folk everywhere like to worry about constructive possession and "constructive intent", but the reason the Thompson Center Arms case is cited so often isn't just because Thompson Center Arms won, but because it's possibly the only relevant case ever actually pursued by BATFE , and is why BATFE published Ruling 2011-4.

I dont get this.. isn't a lower a lower no matter how you build it? You can build a rifle or pistol from it.

From reading some of this.. I could be mistaken, but I cannot put my carbine upper (16") on my pistol lower? I don't see how or why that would be a bad thing, unless of course it's just dummy gov't laws that make no sense.

 

[noxin]

As i understand it, a pistol lower can be converted to a rifle lower and back. A rifle lower can never be a pistol lower.

 

[drgrant]

As a NH resident, I only have one AR-15 lower that was actually purchased as a rifle lower, so I guess I should sell that and buy a pistol lower, just to be safe.

When did you buy that, during the pleistocene era? For at least the past, 3? years, AR lowers transfer as "other" and what "orientation" they are is picked by you, the buyer.

ETA: it may have been longer than that, I know its been at least 3 years.

-Mike

 

[Kevin_NH]

When did you buy that, during the pleistocene era? For at least the past, 3? years, AR lowers transfer as "other" and what "orientation" they are is picked by you, the buyer. ETA: it may have been longer than that, I know its been at least 3 years. -Mike

Lower was purchased with the stock installed, is at least 5 years old, paperwork says rifle.

From reading some of this.. I could be mistaken, but I cannot put my carbine upper (16") on my pistol lower? I don't see how or why that would be a bad thing, unless of course it's just dummy gov't laws that make no sense.

A pistol can have any length barrel you want, there's no problem Federally with having a pistol with a 16" barrel, but a pistol cannot have a shoulder stock or a second vertical grip (the exception to that is another thread entirely).

Things get more complicated when you look at individual state laws, for example, NH RSA 159 defines a pistol as "any firearm with barrel less than 16 inches in length", yet RSA 207:7 lacks any relevant definitions.

I dont get this.. isn't a lower a lower no matter how you build it? You can build a rifle or pistol from it.

As i understand it, a pistol lower can be converted to a rifle lower and back. A rifle lower can never be a pistol lower.

Correct -- A receiver purchased as a rifle, or purchased as a "receiver' (stripped lower) and first built up as a rifle, is a rifle forever, as covered in BATFE Ruling 2011-4.

 

[sweed]

As i understand it, a pistol lower can be converted to a rifle lower and back. A rifle lower can never be a pistol lower.

What is the difference in the lower though? And how would a cop know if a specific lower was on a rifle or pistol. Ex. If you build an AR rifle, then swap everything out besides the lower and build a pistol, no one would know the difference?? If I'm missing something obvious, let me know

 

[soloman02]

A pistol can have any length barrel you want, there's no problem Federally with having a pistol with a 16" barrel, but a pistol cannot have a shoulder stock or a second vertical grip (the exception to that is another thread entirely).

Things get more complicated when you look at individual state laws, for example, NH RSA 159 defines a pistol as "any firearm with barrel less than 16 inches in length", yet RSA 207:7 lacks any relevant definitions.


Correct -- A receiver purchased as a rifle, or purchased as a "receiver' (stripped lower) and first built up as a rifle, is a rifle forever, as covered in BATFE Ruling 2011-4.

If one buys a stripped lower (technically a "pistol") and makes a rifle out of it, then places an upper with barrel less than 16" and removes the stock, technically the law has been broken.

However, the ATF is NEVER going to know or be able to PROVE that the law was broken (unless you foolishly took a pic of the lower in rifle configuration and the serial number is visible).

Remember there is no ATF boogeyman in your closet waiting for you to "trip up" and break the law...

 

[DarthRevan]

Remember there is no ATF boogeyman in your closet waiting for you to "trip up" and break the law...

You're right, they're in that unmarked van that keeps parking on my street...

 

[Kevin_NH]

What is the difference in the lower though? And how would a cop know if a specific lower was on a rifle or pistol. Ex. If you build an AR rifle, then swap everything out besides the lower and build a pistol, no one would know the difference?? If I'm missing something obvious, let me know

If you buy a stripped lower today (transfers as a receiver on 4473) you're fine. If you're starting with a lower that was originally a rifle (e.g. was first purchased as a complete rifle), it's forever a rifle (short of making it an NFA weapon with a Form-1, paying the $200 tax).

I'm still waiting for a citation of BATFE prosecution of an individual for owning too many short uppers without matching pistol/SBR lowers.

 

[SubieGuy4]

The pistol can be everything the SBR can be, except a bit of hassle with the "stock" (arm brace) not being rigid and having a different buffer tube setup than on a rifle. Advantages are that it's off the books, can be transported between states, can be loaded in the car, and you don't have to wait 12-18 months.

When I have the cash for my next AR build, it will be a pistol with brace, because I want to have the freedom to do what I want with it and a rigid, telescoping stock isn't enough of a pro to sway me from the legal convenience of the pistol.

 

[warwickben]

I wonder if a carbon fiber lower could be made that could withstand those forces.

Yes .
Carbon fiber is pretty damn strong . If it's done right and little but of metal for the buffer tower is embedded it will be stronger then most people need.

Look up the bush master awb pistols.